Illegally detained and searched

I do not hate police. I do believe they are far more numerous, better armed, less legally constrained, and more likely to "testilie" for each other than most professions.

That said, I just wanted to point out that using statistics to show police are relatively safe is similar to asking the foxes if the chickens should trust them.

Then Seattle officer Ian Birk killed a man in cold blood. There were no charges. Therefore nothing bad happened, right?

There are so many examples it becomes truly dismaying to research. Read about Project Innocence. Every one of those cases involved police gathering evidence, making arrests, and testifying. Putting innocent people on death row. And PI only goes after serious crimes. And only in states that must maintain DNA evidence after convictions.

How many drug convicts do you suppose were innocent? Thousands? Hundreds of thousands?

Check out: http://www.injusticeeverywhere.com

Again, there can be no dispute that there are very poor excuses for cops out there. Obviously, it's easy to find examples with a very quick search.

It's difficult to find positive examples in the news or on the internet. Easy to jump to conclusions there, isn't it?

There are 10's of 1000's of cars on the road in central Florida. There's usually anywhere between 3 to 5 major accidents on the evening news. Many involve a fatality. Does that mean all cars are going to kill us?

Yet, many utilize similar logic when forming opinions about LEO's.

That logic is actually quite silly looking though, when you remove the cloak of prejudice.

I also argue that many negative encounters with LEO's are self-inflicted. As proven by myself and others who have gone a lifetime without a single negative LEO encounter, one really must question if, at least some, of these reported terrible encounters with so-called bad-cops could be a result of said cop escalating the encounter only after being faced with a combative person first.

Of course, the only answer I get to that question is that " the law doesn't require politeness". And, of course, it doesn't. But, respect is a 2 way street. How can one expect respect in return when they are so disrespectful up front? And, while I'm sure many see themselves as respectful, agian, pointing out myself and many others who've gone entire lifetimes without a negative experience could be evidence of the contrary.

And, for those who wish to point to anti-LEO biased blogs, and youtube videos edited to fit an agenda, try again. Taken out of context, I could edit the video of anything to show the view I want to show. The media's been doing it for generations now.

JeepSeller said:

snip

According to the Orlando Sentinel, the number of officers disciplined in 2009 was 794. My source here....http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...inal-justice-standards-officers-criminal-case

That works out to just around 2% of sworn officers disciplined in Florida during 2009

Click to expand...

While we are talking numbers here, the number of officers disciplined in 2009 is really the number of officers who got caught doing something wrong, and then out of those the ones who were actually disciplined for their behavior.

Schlitz said:

While we are talking numbers here, the number of officers disciplined in 2009 is really the number of officers who got caught doing something wrong, and then out of those the ones who were actually disciplined for their behavior.

Click to expand...

I think it would be difficult to argue that the actual number is significantly higher without sounding like one of the tin-foil-hat crowd. While I'm certain there are LEO's who don't get caught doing wrong, I'm quite confident that the cited numbers reflect the bigger picture just fine. Even if the cited numbers were off substantially, say the number of rotten LEOs are 10x off. that would make the percentage of LEOs acting poorly at only @ 20%. I, somehow, doubt that there are THAT many LEO's getting away with stuff. I'd need some kind of proof to convince me otherwise, and no one has ever been able to provide logical, real world numbers. All I ever get is "Check out YouTube dude!" and stories about "my brother's mother's sister's uncle had this one experience......" or, "I read about some guy on a gun forum". *shrug* Keep trying IMHO. And since there are a number of us who can say we've gone a lifetime of LEO encounters without one single bad one, those who witness to multiple, frequent, personal experiences really must look in the mirror for the source of their problems with so many different LEO's, particularly, in light of such overwhelming data that proves the majority of LEO's are not all bad.

Truthfully, IMHO, there are a large number of people who profess to be anti-LEO who have actually never HAD a poor experience. I call them followers. It's "fun" to follow the crowd. It's easier to just follow the flow, and, since, anti-LEO sentiment is particularly prevalent on gun forums, there are many who just cave in to the peer pressure. I'm not saying there aren't people who've had lousy experiences. But, I'm saying that there are a good number of followers who jump on the hate-bandwagon simply because of peer pressure and again, it's easier to be "part of the crowd" and gobble up rhetoric. It's much more difficult to think for one's self and stand out from the crowd.

JeepSeller said:

SNIP...
There are 10's of 1000's of cars on the road in central Florida. There's usually anywhere between 3 to 5 major accidents on the evening news. Many involve a fatality. Does that mean all cars are going to kill us?

Of course not, just as there are millions of gun owners and not all are murderers. And that is not the argument made here. Not all car owners jump to the defense of a bad driver. Courts actually convict bad drivers. There is no powerful union or local political body supporting bad drivers. Other bad drivers don't threaten an accident victim to keep quiet. Etc.

SNIP...
I also argue that many negative encounters with LEO's are self-inflicted. As proven by myself and others who have gone a lifetime without a single negative LEO encounter, one really must question if, at least some, of these reported terrible encounters with so-called bad-cops could be a result of said cop escalating the encounter only after being faced with a combative person first.

Personally I disagree. Just as police offer people chances to break the law and then feel no mercy if the offer is accepted, I feel little pity for officers who respond unlawfully. I was not allowed to attack bad actors while in the service nor would I have expected others to back me up. I've now been a civilian for 15 years and I have to be civilized at work even when my customers are not. I expect no less from public servants.

Of course, the only answer I get to that question is that " the law doesn't require politeness". And, of course, it doesn't. But, respect is a 2 way street. How can one expect respect in return when they are so disrespectful up front? And, while I'm sure many see themselves as respectful, agian, pointing out myself and many others who've gone entire lifetimes without a negative experience could be evidence of the contrary.

Just as the fact that I've never been in a serious car accident is indicative of the universal safety of our roads? Obviously all hit and run victims were asking for it in some manner.

I've just made a ridiculous statement. I consider yours above it to also be dismissive of many people's unfortunate circumstances. Do some people require harsher handling? Of course. But all too many have been well documented as undeserving of their treatment.

And, for those who wish to point to anti-LEO biased blogs, and youtube videos edited to fit an agenda, try again. Taken out of context, I could edit the video of anything to show the view I want to show. The media's been doing it for generations now.

Click to expand...

Read the link I offered. These are main-stream media accounts of the events and the legal actions that follow. The problem is well known and well documented.

I do not doubt that you are a decent person and deserve the respectful treatment you've received. You're posts here reflect that. 35 years ago I had a poor experience that way absolutely uncalled for but nothing since. But I've also only had a few police contacts of any type in my entire life so if you look at percentages I might be around a 33% failure rate.

I read all links. And I give them the due they deserve. I'll try to put this as simply as possible. I admit, I can get preachy and long winded, my message does, often, get lost.

Are people treated poorly by officers sometimes? Of course. Are there documentation of some of those encounters. Of course again. First of all, we have to examine the source of those stories and videos. Is the material presented in it's entirety? Or, has it been edited to show only the parts that back up an agenda (as is with most videos) Do we have the whole story, or are we just getting the information that, again, backs up an agenda, as with most blog-based stories. In other words, is the story being presented with a bias or not?

Mostly, regardless of source or agenda, what we have here is a fact of human nature. BAD stories make to good news ratings and get 1 million hits on YouTube. Uneventful, normal stories put people to sleep. So, which stories will we see and hear on the news? On the web? So, the presence of bad stories and examples, unfortunately, do not paint an accurate picture.

Finally, what we have here is also just a fact of sheer numbers. We do see hundreds of stories, YouTube videos, and forum blogs about poor examples of LEO's. But, that number pales in comparison to the sheer number of cops patrolling and the massive volumes of interactions they have with citizens every day. If you take the number of bad experiences, and compare it to the number of uneventful ones, the story deviates from the anti-LEO agenda impressively.

You do realize that taking a few examples and trying to over-generalize the whole is a tactic of the anti-gun crowd, don't you? We don't care much for it when a gun owner does something stupid and the anti-gun crowd roars that all guns are bad and all gun owners are criminals, right? There are a ton of gun crimes in this country every day. Yet, we constantly argue that you can't punish gun owners as a whole for the misdeeds of a few clowns.

For us to do so with LEO's, or any profession for that much, is the height of hypocrisy.

This will be my last comment on the subject for awhile. I'm in the middle of mid-terms, and, to be blunt, I'm weary of this subject. And, I'm sure everyone is tired of hearing (seeing) me preach.

Let me say that I have a tremendous respect for my fellow Americans, and, particularly, my fellow citizens who have made the choice to take up arms, exercise their 2nd Amendment right, and defend themselves from harm. I am continuously impressed by the wisdom, knowledge, and experiences shown around these forums. I'm completely honest when I say I'm proud to be part of this crowd.

However, I am continuously dismayed at seeing folks with minds open enough to see the evil world around them, see it clearly enough to understand our right to protect ourselves from those evils, yet, have such closed minds when it comes to the target of their fears.

Are there evil cops? Yes. Are there evil school teachers? Yes. Are there bad drivers on the road? Yes. Are there bad school bus drivers? Yep. How about Librarians? I met a doozy just the other day, so, sure. Should an entire group be discriminated against simply because of the misdeeds of a few? Seriously? Why do I even have to ask the question?

JeepSeller said:

The only negative encounters I am aware of, are videos posted on these forums and/or first-hand experiences posted by members, and, of the vast majority of those, we see a common tone to the way they dealt with the situation.
I merely believe how we present ourselves during these encounters with an LEO can and does have a huge impact on how those encounters play out in most circumstances.

Click to expand...

When the Madison 5 were harrassed, arrested, & ticketed for having dinner while armed they were all polite. The 2 who were actually arrested for not identifying themselves (which the WI Supreme Court says isn't required) pretty much remained silent, the other 3 were all polite but insisted on their rights. (Yes, there's audio.)

When I was arrested for going to church armed (perfectly legal in WI), I was polite & level-headed, never fought or raised my voice, yet I was made to get out of my car @ gunpoint by 2 officers,
handcuffed, groped twice,
I was searched, my purse was searched,
they stole keys from my pocket & searched my car (all without consent & over my repeated objections, of course),
then they arrested me for something their Chief told them in writing more than a year before they're not allowed to arrest for,
took me to the station for questioning, prints & pictures,
then read me my rights,
then questioned me some more,
and finally stole not only my pistol (from the car, in its case) but my holster & extra mag (off my belt).

Yeah, the whole stop was bad & everything was thrown out & they paid a few thousand $ to apologize.
But other than being shot or tackled, I don't see how it could have been worse if I hadn't been calm & polite.

Then there was the time 6 officers broke into my home, tackled me, & searched the house, ending with stealing one of my pistols & some other stuff.
Depositions in that 1983 suit are Tues.

MilProGuy said:

I suppose if I had suffered oppression and harassment by members of the law enforcement community, I'd be able to share some of the ill will for them that some folks seem to have.

Click to expand...

I don't have ill will toward them as a group,
and there are a few friends who either are or have been LEO of various flavors whom I like & trust,
but I no longer blindly trust that a random LEO is going to know or follow the law, or treat me as a citizen rather than a criminal.
They get polite but firm until they earn something different.

JeepSeller said:

The number of sworn officers in Florida was 35,520 in 2009.
According to the Orlando Sentinel, the number of officers disciplined in 2009 was 794.
That works out to just around 2% of sworn officers disciplined in Florida during 2009

Click to expand...

Compared to much less than 1% of cc permit holders getting in trouble with the law.
Not an exact comparison of stats, no, but interesting.

Schlitz said:

While we are talking numbers here, the number of officers disciplined in 2009 is really the number of officers who got caught doing something wrong, and then out of those the ones who were actually disciplined for their behavior.

Click to expand...

As are the numbers of NON-LEO's charged with offenses.... just those that the LEO/Prosecutor/DISTRICT ATTORNEY THOUGHT they committed a crime, NOT the total numbers of those that may actually done so or those that were actually INNOCENT or at least NOT GUILTY by the court determination.

No matter how you slice it, Agents of the State are more than an order of magnitude more likely to commit crime than any other demographic. They are even more likely to get away with it. Not covering your ass, in whatever feeble way possible, is just plain crazy.

Carry and Run your damn recorder. Even if it all goes well... Maybe post a youtube video showing that not all cops are pure evil? It it's true, why not put up a contrasting video? If your encounters go so well, lets see it! You'd think, with all the bad press, LEOs and their apologists would be doing this.... But no...

Put your recorder where you mouth is. Show me your LEO interactions where your Right are not violated. Show me the video of not being intimidated, detained without cause, etc... Show me this not happening. Am I asking you to prove a negative? No. I'm asking you to show me a LEO encounter in which the LEO shows respect for America, instead of treason. If it happens to you, show it. Prove it. Put a video up that shows a contrast to the videos that are currently prevalent. DO IT! If good LEO encounters happen so much more often than bad ones, it should be really easy to do. I understand the premise that the bad press is what gets spread. I'm not asking you to outnumber the bad videos by the same ratio you claim. Show me a video of a LEO not even trying to cross the line. Show me the video where you don't surrender your rights, and the LEO doesn't try to trample them. Show me the video where the LEO knows his place as a public servant, and doesn't attempt to step out of those bounds. Show it to me. Be the guy who proves all us "LEO bashers" wrong. According to your own statements, it should be REALLY easy to do.

I have a hunch it'll be like finding an example of an OCer being Primary Target... You can argue it until you're blue in the face, but the evidence says otherwise...

I have absolutely no idea who your post is directed towards here IXTOW!

Some strong opinions there. Personally, I have only had one negative incident with a LEO during a traffic stop and it was a minor incident where he was sure that the law required me to tell him that I had a permit to conceal EVEN THOUGH I WAS NOT ARMED at the time. He was wrong and that Administrative Rule as it was call in my state has since been repealed. He gave me a warning for the speeding and I went on my way.

The preceding is NOT to say that others have had the SAME experience. I am quite aware of others having had much more egregious experiences--- that did escalate to a violation of their rights or even STARTED as a violation of their rights.

As to the violation of ones rights, they are fully within their rights to seek whatever redress is allowed by law. I will even say that NOT SEEKING REDRESS will ONLY further embolden those OPINION ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS to greater violation of ones rights. Some areas of our country seem to have bigger problems with this that I have experienced or heard reported in the area in which I reside. This is NOT to say that there are not issues here.

I have said in the past that for the same reasons that LEO's carry and use recording devices to be a witness to the encounter, WE NEED TO DO THE SAME.

If it happens in ANY area of our Country it is possible that it will happen where YOU live.

JoeSparky said:

I have absolutely no idea who your post is directed towards here IXTOW!

Click to expand...

It isn't directed at anyone. I'm making clear that if the LEO apologists wanted to present evidence of how great and wonderful LEOs are, it should be only too easy. But where is it?

It's the same as saying OCers will be targeted first... It is not only illogical, but where is the evidence?

I'm merely calling them out... If it's so true, lay it on the table! Where is it?

As for the FDLE academy I attended, LEOs are trained and taught to do a lot worse than violate your rights. I wonder if most of them have any idea where the line is really drawn, and a lot of their aggression and violations might come from simply being taught that acting this way is appropriate...

I tell them "Nothing to see here, move along."

ixtow said:

It isn't directed at anyone. I'm making clear that if the LEO apologists wanted to present evidence of how great and wonderful LEOs are, it should be only too easy. But where is it?

Click to expand...

Well, I do believe I've posted at least three live encounters from this year about traffic stops to me while open carrying.

All three were done professionally and without apparent predjudice from the LEO.

You've probably already read them I'm sure.

Do those count or do I need to attempt to set up a video rig each time I'm stopped?

I open carry for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is to be comfortable, to exercise a Florida statute that's available to me and to perhaps "make it easier" for the next guy who gets stopped for open carry (while fishing, etc).

Each stop makes it just that much easier for the next guy and as word gets around the departments that there are "guys fishing with guns out there" then the LEO's are aware of them, and by default, THE STATUTES that cover this sort of thing.

Now, if the next guy the LEO stops goes off on a rampage about rogue cops, thugs, and basically goes nuts during the stop, how does this help out THE NEXT GUY who gets asked for ID while open carrying?

I'm obviously missing something here.

If one decides to make a conscientious decison to open carry (not just the brief exposure thing) then you HAVE to be able to take the increased scrutiny until this type of thing becomes a bit more commonplace in Florida.

Here's a hint. In the 7 months or so that I've been doing this DAILY, I've yet to see another person open carry, unless they were with me and heading to the range or fishing with me. Not a single one. This is a very uncommon sight for the citizens and the LEO's rarely see it. I believe the FWM guys may see it more than local PD's as they deal with fishing and hunting more. With that said, I'm thinking nobody reading this message has seen anyone openly carrying a gun all year.

I've gotten off track again but the original paragraph still stands. I've posted three reports of open carry stops and ALL of them have been professional and apparently legal.

AD (I know the statutes and open carry daily as needed)

(PS: I just added the picture because I like pictures in messages!)

ADulay said:

Now, if the next guy the LEO stops goes off on a rampage about rogue cops, thugs, and basically goes nuts during the stop, how does this help out THE NEXT GUY who gets asked for ID while open carrying?

Click to expand...

When has this ever happened?

Paul Harvey says it best

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEvZBKwvE0k

Thanks Sparky

Who would like to be judged by the actions of the worst of any group?

Please, lets deal with the problems, not create new problems.

JeepSeller said:

SNIP ...cops... Should an entire group be discriminated against simply because of the misdeeds of a few? Seriously? Why do I even have to ask the question?

Click to expand...

Discriminate? Exercising rights is discrimination?

A few? Well, I guess I can understand that from a fella who earlier said he can see just fine, and tried to invalidate the numerous reports of police abuses by tossing off a comment about needing to take false and skewed reports into account.

But, a few? Really? There was a French legislator who wrote a booklet in the 1830's-40's. Frederic Bastiat. Title: Things That Are Seen And Things That Are Unseen.[SUP]1[/SUP] Now that booklet, still available and very good reading, is about economics; but, I think the title applies here a little bit. The only way one can claim "few" is if one "unsees" a few things.

Remember the college student in MD who was attacked by cops after a game? The video with the mounted cops? There were about 4-5 cops in that video. Now, what do you suppose are the odds that the only 4-5 bad cops in that whole city just happened to be on that exact street corner at that exact moment? My, what an amazing coincidence! And, what an amazing coincidence that no cops in the crowd control group said anything about the beating until after the video--which disappeared initially--surfaced again?

Remember the homeless guy beaten to a pulp a few months ago? The one who witnesses said begged for his father as he was beaten? The purple face in the internet photo's barely recognizeable as human? There were what? Five cops? in on his beating. Now, what do you suppose are the odds that the only five bad cops in that whole city just happened to be at that public transit station?

And, what about all the so-called good cops who refuse to protect us from the bad cops by getting rid of them fast? Ever heard of the Blue Wall of Silence?--so called good cops staying silent to protect bad cops? Do you really expect us to believe that tough-guy cops who regulary go hands-on (their term) with dangerous men, suddenly come over all timid when it comes to other cops? If they were all that concerned about bad cops, the bad cops wouldn't last sixty seconds. Every violation of rights would be instantly reported. "Captain! Officer Basher just intimidated a detainee while questioning by threatening an arrest without probable cause, scaring the youth into answering questions!"

And, where are the police unions demanding department leaders clean up the bad cops in order to make a better, more satisfying workplace for the good cops?

And, where were all the police protesting citizens being arrested and harrassed over the last year for legally video-ing cops? Oh! Yes! I almost forgot! There was exactly one cop who wrote an essay supporting citizens video-ing police! My fault. I'm so sorry.

You can only claim "a few bad cops" if you only focus on what you can see. You have to look beyond for the unseen. But, then again, maybe you don't.

I say, from what I can tell, the genuinely good cops--excellent, deep respect for actual rights[SUP]2[/SUP] and the limits of their own authority--are the few. Those cops deserve our deepest respect for trying to make a career in an industry reeking with abuse.

1. This is an excellent little primer on economics. Very simply written. Very easy to read and understand. I think it was aimed at the masses, and intended to undermine the lies some self-serving government and political types were promoting about economic policies. Much of its content is still applicable today. Still in print, believe it or not.

2. What do I call a good cop? Here's my litmus test/dividing line: a deep personal conviction that rights matter, who respects those rights, and respects from deep personal conviction the limits of his own authority. What would I consider a stellar cop? The one who said, "I don't care whether the Supreme Court said (insert a court authorized infringement here). I'm not going to do it!"

It's obvious some of you don't actually read what I've said, but, only see what you choose to see. But, that's OK. I'm well aware that it's very difficult to look past one's biases.

Again, I've stated my piece on the subject. In summary: There are, indeed, some very bad cops out there, but, when looked at objectively against the backdrop of the 100's of thousands of cops on the street, and what is likely millions of cop/citizen encounters over a year, there just isn't the evidence to support the argument that bad cops are in the majority. So, again, to judge the majority on the deeds of the minority is just another form of discrimination. But, again, as I explained once before, even THAT'S normal. It's not easy for some people to look past their emotionally based biases to see the larger picture.

Lastly, as evidenced by people who have gone a lifetime of police encounters that cannot report ever suffering at the hands of these evil cops, one must, at the very least, take a look at how those who do report frequent negative run-ins are presenting themselves. Again, another fact of human nature is that it's very easy to blame someone or something else for one's troubles. Much more difficult to accept responsibility one's self. Are all negative encounters brought on by the citizen? Of course not. But, I argue that the way one carries him/herself in these situations can and does impact the end result much more than many enjoy acknowledging.

I think my comments are MORE than fair and open minded. I'm willing to accept there are both sides to this argument and that there is a problem within the LEO community. I only try to point out there is another way to view this subject. Often, those who seem to disagree with me on this subject are so blinded by their own biases, they only see one way, their way. Again, something else that's rather normal within human nature. So, I do understand.

Yea, I know, I said I was done with this one. I just have a hard time keeping my yap shut when I see hypocrisy. Again, none of us care much for it when the anti-gun crowd roars to life pointing to a gun owner who goes on a shooting rampage and wishing to judge us all by that criteria. I honestly don't see unfairly judging LEO's for the misdeeds of a few as any different.

I really am done for a bit at least on this one. No one like to be preached to, I realize that, it was never my intention. It's just a subject for which I feel very strongly.

I wish we could truly know the following ratios. I bet they'd be mind-blowing:

bad cops : cops
bad citizens : population

MAC702 said:

I wish we could truly know the following ratios. I bet they'd be mind-blowing:

bad cops : cops
bad citizens : population

Click to expand...

I don't have the national figures, but, I think we can put together a rough picture of Florida at least...

Per my citations above, in 2009, there were 35,520 sworn officers in Florida. 794 (2%) were disciplined for some reason or another. Of those 794, 44% (349) had their credentials yanked, meaning, in 2009, there were 445 officers who were found guilty of offenses resulting in loss of their credentials. (1% of the total)

In 2008, there were around 18.5 million residents in Florida. There were around 100K inmates housed in Florida prisons, another 100K on some form of state sponsored community supervision. Add another 60K or so for those in County lockups. That takes us to approximately, 260K. Since I can't find the number of Floridians on supervised control for the county level, let's just even things out at 300K. That works out to around 1.6% of the Florida population could be legitimately considered "bad" for the sake of our discussion. I'd say we can call it even with the ratio to bad LEOs which is about exactly what I expected before looking anything up.

There are bad people who do bad things in every walk of life. What they wear and what they do doesn't seem to have much of an impact. We don't treat every citizen as the devil incarnate. So, again, I point out the hypocrisy of doing so with LEOs.

For those who will ask, I cited my sources regarding LEOs up above. I picked up my prison/population information directly from the Florida Department of Corrections website and the Census Bureau. I did round off numbers (I was running the numbers in my head) But, I'm confident the picture painted is valid enough for our purposes here.