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What's your idea's about crime control

PT111

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, South Carolina, USA
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Wynder wrote:
PT111 wrote:
-- murder is usually a one-time deal, whether it be a crime of passion
I would like to see some stats on this. One reason that murder is usually a one time deal is that they are caught and in jail rather than being able to commit more murders.
On a study from Washington State, the same one from which I quoted the other statistics of felons who were convicted, released and reconvicted, Murder had the lowest rate of recidivism at about 4.6%.
I understand that but did it take into account that usually murder has a lot longer sentence than other crimes and those that are released are probably those that were the least dangerous to start with. But are you saying that 4.6% of those released after being found guilty of murder go out and murder again? If so that is one sobering thought.
 

Wynder

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PT111 wrote:
I understand that but did it take into account that usually murder has a lot longer sentence than other crimes and those that are released are probably those that were the least dangerous to start with.
I'm afraid I can't answer that.


But are you saying that 4.6% of those released after being found guilty of murder go out and murder again? If so that is one sobering thought.
I actually muspoke -- the statistic was only 4%, but yes -- that is correct. See figure 6 here: http://www.sgc.wa.gov/PUBS/Recidivism/Adult_Recidivism_CY04.pdf
 

stephpd

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PT111 wrote:
Wynder wrote:
PT111 wrote:
-- murder is usually a one-time deal, whether it be a crime of passion
I would like to see some stats on this. One reason that murder is usually a one time deal is that they are caught and in jail rather than being able to commit more murders.
On a study from Washington State, the same one from which I quoted the other statistics of felons who were convicted, released and reconvicted, Murder had the lowest rate of recidivism at about 4.6%.
I understand that but did it take into account that usually murder has a lot longer sentence than other crimes and those that are released are probably those that were the least dangerous to start with. But are you saying that 4.6% of those released after being found guilty of murder go out and murder again? If so that is one sobering thought.
That's what I took it to mean.
Compared to 70% of felonies are commited by people already felons. There seems to not be a very big percent of repeat offenders for murder. But that's not to say they don't commit other felonies.:uhoh:
 

Wynder

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stephpd wrote:
That's what I took it to mean.
Compared to 70% of felonies are commited by people already felons. There seems to not be a very big percent of repeat offenders for murder. But that's not to say they don't commit other felonies.:uhoh:
Ah yes -- that is "Same Criminal Conduct"... They murdered, were released and murdered again. Now, I don't know if this includes other methods of homicide, but non-the-less 4% is statistically significant, but it can show that murders generally crimes of passion or sudden anger and don't often happen again.... of course, not taking into account the offenders who get the chair, the needle or life terms.

I wonder if that accounts for jailhouse deaths as well?
 

Wynder

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If anyone comes across any other published studies like these, please do post links to them so I can use them for my research paper. :)
 

asforme

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Wynder wrote:
Manslaughter? Accidental, reckless or negligent homicide?

Sexual assault? Offensive touching?

Embezlement? Con games? Home improvement schemes?

As for drug users, you've advocated recreational drug use, but what about narcotics? People who sell to children? People who intentionally or unintentionally mix bad batches and distribute? Outside of that, the discussion is about crime control in our current governmental climate and habitual users who use to the point where they destory their lives and become a burden to the taxpayers need to be rehabilitated.

And an armed public is not "the only thing" that will prevent someone from stealing property. People CAN be rehabilitated -- your view just comes off as way too narrow to cover every type of offense.
Others have voiced concerns of the accuracy of our legal system to indicate they are not in favor of the death penalty. I can fully respect that and actually am still debating that concept in my own mind. So in leu of the death penalty, life without parole under the condition that the inmate must be working to pay for the costs of his incarceration. The problem is that it is very difficult to motivate someone to work when they are stuck for life. So if we are not willing to kill them, we must at least be willing to allow them to kill themselves by refusing to work for their food.

Now to your other listed crimes:

Manslaughter is murder: I see no difference between a "crime of passion" ie someone can't control their temper, and a well thought and planned murder.

Accidental, reckless and negligent homocide: typically these crimes are the result of a bad situation that happened once, as far as I know there is not a big problem with repeat offenders in this area. For these crimes I think current prision sentances are more than appropriate and possibly even too heavy.

Narcotics, whatever I don't care what people shoot in their vains. Also the perscription system should be abolished, I don't need my doctors permission to get some anti-biotics for a friggin ear infection.

Selling to children: What are the punishments for businesses that sell alcohol or tobacco to children? Whatever they are they seem to be working, everybody's got their we id card up. I think one of the many benefits of decriminalizing drugs is that it will allow drugs to be sold in real businesses that are operated in a safe manner.
-- On a somewhat related note, I'm not entirely sure what I think about age restrictions on controlled substances anyway. I'm inclined to say it is the parents job to raise their children, not the governments.

Bad baches: What happens if a perscription drug company does this?

Sexual Assault: I'll admit it, I don't have a good answer there.

Embezlement: These criminals are not the same as the common thief. The common thief steals for immediate gratification and the only prevention is an immediate deturrent (like the business end of a .45). The embezzler on the other hand is somewhat educated and looking into the future. Therefor I see prison sentances more effective for them. Con artists are somewhat middle of the road, though I still think a mix of appropriate prison sentances and the threat of an armed population would be effective.


I'll fully admit, I am very passionate about what should and should not be a crime, but in terms of how to enforce those crimes my opinions are not as well researched as many. I am in no way trying to assert what I wrote above, only writing my inclinations. I'm actually enjoying this thread as an opportunity to reflect and develop my ideas on those issues further.
 

stephpd

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Wynder wrote:
stephpd wrote:
That's what I took it to mean.
Compared to 70% of felonies are commited by people already felons. There seems to not be a very big percent of repeat offenders for murder. But that's not to say they don't commit other felonies.:uhoh:
Ah yes -- that is "Same Criminal Conduct"... They murdered, were released and murdered again. Now, I don't know if this includes other methods of homicide, but non-the-less 4% is statistically significant, but it can show that murders generally crimes of passion or sudden anger and don't often happen again.... of course, not taking into account the offenders who get the chair, the needle or life terms.

I wonder if that accounts for jailhouse deaths as well?
My guess would be no.

And as far as drug, prostitution and other victimles crimes, no jail time just a heavy fine if you are stupid enough to get caught. Say $2000 first offence. More for repeat offenders. Get off the street, you are too stupid. In your home,motel room, no fine since they can't see you.

And since we are talking about violent crime, not sure about death penalty, but as an example: armed robbery--- 20 years, kill a civilian while commiting crime, 40 years plus restitution75% of earnings(that would go to jail) go to victims. Killing a LEO while running away from crime,death and family has to pay restitution.

The lesser crimes are still stiff just not so much. Hadn't really given much thought to Embezlement Con games Home improvement schemes. I'd guess restitution at 300% of money stolen. No jail time but court takes 75% of income until paid off. 75% going to victim, 25% going to cover court costs. Skip town to avoid paying--jail, work until payed in full.


I also want to add---- Politicians, judges and doctors need close scrutiny.Judges the strictest, monthly random drug testing for all mind altering drugs including prescription drugs. Politicians and doctors it would be quarterly. Judges lose job for any infraction, Politicians and doctor have that information made public, state web site and /or newspaper. Don't lose job, but You'll never get another job or customer. Well maybe lose job, I'm still undecided.

How do others feel about the last paragraph?

Thanks guys, this is fun!:lol:

Thank ya, thank ya very much.
 

Wynder

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Manslaughter is murder: I see no difference between a "crime of passion" ie someone can't control their temper, and a well thought and planned murder.
Wow... Mind you, manslaughter also covers accidental deaths, e.g. a construction worker accidentally kicks a hammer from the top of a building which happens to fall on the head of a passer-by...

He should get the chair, too?
 

like_the_roman

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Singapore practically invented the "broken windows" theory of crime control - small infractions like vandalism, spitting gum on the sidewalk, jaywalking, etc. are punished heavily (usually with massive fines and/or caning.)

The thought is that since people could get away with these small crimes that they would be emboldened to try other more serious or more violent crimes. The theory worked out pretty well. Though private gun ownership is prohibited, Singapore is one of the safest places one could ever live or visit.

I think the same methods are worth trying here in the states.
 

Cue-Ball

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like_the_roman wrote:
Singapore practically invented the "broken windows" theory of crime control - small infractions like vandalism, spitting gum on the sidewalk, jaywalking, etc. are punished heavily (usually with massive fines and/or caning.)

The thought is that since people could get away with these small crimes that they would be emboldened to try other more serious or more violent crimes. The theory worked out pretty well. Though private gun ownership is prohibited, Singapore is one of the safest places one could ever live or visit.

I think the same methods are worth trying here in the states.
These methods would probably be quite effective here in the States (I don't believe in physical punishment for a litterbug, but fines would be acceptable). These are crimes which do harm personal property and are basically no different from theft. That is how they should be punished. If we got rid of all the nonsensical laws, licensing restrictions, consensual laws, etc. the police would actually have time to apprehend and be a deterrent to people littering, vandalizing, etc.

The fewer laws we have, the more time we can spend enforcing the ones that really matter.

I also want to say that I think it's interesting to hear people's views on restitution and retribution. While you cannot completely get rid of retributive punishments for crimes like murder and rape, I think that most crimes should be dealt with through restitution instead. If you paint graffiti on the side of my house I don't want you sitting in jail...I want you earning money and performing labor to make me whole again. If you don't have a job or cannot earn enough money to correct your wrong then the state covers the cost up-front and you pay back the state through labor during incarceration.
 

like_the_roman

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Cue-Ball wrote:
I also want to say that I think it's interesting to hear people's views on restitution and retribution. While you cannot completely get rid of retributive punishments for crimes like murder and rape, I think that most crimes should be dealt with through restitution instead. If you paint graffiti on the side of my house I don't want you sitting in jail...I want you earning money and performing labor to make me whole again. If you don't have a job or cannot earn enough money to correct your wrong then the state covers the cost up-front and you pay back the state through labor during incarceration.

Agreed. That's a much more sensible solution than incarceration. Prisons are basically a big government boondoggle - it costs twice what I make in a year to keep an individual prisoner locked up (prisoners get free meals, medical, dental, vocational training, and housing on our dime) and recidivism rates are upwards of 50%.

The crime problem could probably be eliminated by a combination of Singapore-style policing and the use of tried and true methods of punishment (restitution, corporal punishment, public humiliation, forced labor, exile, death penality) instead of sending people to minimum-security resorts.
 

PT111

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(I don't believe in physical punishment for a litterbug, but fines would be acceptable).
Your very first sentence demonstrates the problem with instituting Singapore type methods in the US. We could not agree on proper punishment or that they would be constitutional. We are protected from cruel and unusual punishment in our constitution but no two people can agree on what is cruel or unusual. You many not be but I am all for caning of anyone convicted of littering of chewing gum or bubble gum. I think there should be a $5 deposit per piece of gum that can be refunded upon demonbstration of it being properly disposed.
 

stephpd

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Cue-Ball wrote:
like_the_roman wrote:
Singapore practically invented the "broken windows" theory of crime control - small infractions like vandalism, spitting gum on the sidewalk, jaywalking, etc. are punished heavily (usually with massive fines and/or caning.)

The thought is that since people could get away with these small crimes that they would be emboldened to try other more serious or more violent crimes. The theory worked out pretty well. Though private gun ownership is prohibited, Singapore is one of the safest places one could ever live or visit.

I think the same methods are worth trying here in the states.
These methods would probably be quite effective here in the States (I don't believe in physical punishment for a litterbug, but fines would be acceptable). These are crimes which do harm personal property and are basically no different from theft. That is how they should be punished. If we got rid of all the nonsensical laws, licensing restrictions, consensual laws, etc. the police would actually have time to apprehend and be a deterrent to people littering, vandalizing, etc.

The fewer laws we have, the more time we can spend enforcing the ones that really matter.

I also want to say that I think it's interesting to hear people's views on restitution and retribution. While you cannot completely get rid of retributive punishments for crimes like murder and rape, I think that most crimes should be dealt with through restitution instead. If you paint graffiti on the side of my house I don't want you sitting in jail...I want you earning money and performing labor to make me whole again. If you don't have a job or cannot earn enough money to correct your wrong then the state covers the cost up-front and you pay back the state through labor during incarceration.
OK! Retribution. What would be a just amount? I'm thinking damages, lawyers fees, victim compension fund fees, and court costs. Then double it. 200% of all costs involved plus a small percent towards something like a dead LEO fund. The doubling is split the same way as the first part for the inconvienience. Incentive not to do it again!

Thanks guys, keep it up!

Lets take one topic at a time until we come close to agreeing on every aspect.

Thanks,

Steve
 

asforme

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Wynder wrote:
Manslaughter is murder: I see no difference between a "crime of passion" ie someone can't control their temper, and a well thought and planned murder.
Wow... Mind you, manslaughter also covers accidental deaths, e.g. a construction worker accidentally kicks a hammer from the top of a building which happens to fall on the head of a passer-by...

He should get the chair, too?
Yeah, I thought that was covered under accidental homicide. I think I'm just going to shut up now. My only real input into this thread is to say that we have way to many laws and in turn way to many criminals. Get the victimless offenders out then we have much more prison space to figure out how to appropriately deal with everyone else.

As for how to actually deal with people who are really dangerous, I will enjoy reading and learning from you all who have research the matter much better than I.
 
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