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Waiting periods at gun shows.

Japle

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Viera, Florida, USA
So, Orange County wants to pass a law requiring that gun sales between private individuals at gun shows be subject to a three-day waiting period.
Aside from the obvious fact that such a law won’t reduce crime in the slightest, my question is, how would they enforce such a law? How would the authorities know such a sale even took place? If one individual sells a gun to another individual, there’s no record of the sale. Florida doesn’t have gun registration, you know.
Does Orange County plan on assigning cops to wander around gun shows, hoping to spot private sales? Is that really the best use of our law enforcement resources?
The gun crimes we’re experiencing aren’t related to waiting periods in any way. They’re the work of terrorists, maniacs and inner-city gangs. The maniacs – often identified and then ignored well before they kill – get their guns legally. Terrorists and gang members are already prohibited from obtaining guns. Does anyone think a waiting period would stop them?
The cities with the highest rates of gun crime and also the cities with the strictest gun laws. If gun control laws reduced gun crime, Philadelphia, Baltimore, Chicago, Detroit and Washington D.C. would be crime-free paradises instead of taking turns as “The Murder Capitol of the USA”.
 

solus

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So, Orange County wants to pass a law requiring that gun sales between private individuals at gun shows be subject to a three-day waiting period.
Aside from the obvious fact that such a law won’t reduce crime in the slightest, my question is, how would they enforce such a law? How would the authorities know such a sale even took place? If one individual sells a gun to another individual, there’s no record of the sale. Florida doesn’t have gun registration, you know.

Does Orange County plan on assigning cops to wander around gun shows, hoping to spot private sales? Is that really the best use of our law enforcement resources?

Snipp...emotional hyperbole rant
First, at any given gun show, perhaps at best, 5% are private sales, at best! The other 95% of the sellers are retailers bound by FL's existing statutory regulations in:

790.0655 Purchase and delivery of handguns; mandatory waiting period; exceptions; penalties.—
(1)(a) There shall be a mandatory 3-day waiting period, which shall be 3 days, excluding weekends and legal holidays, between the purchase and the delivery at retail of any handgun. “Purchase” means the transfer of money or other valuable consideration to the retailer. “Handgun” means a firearm capable of being carried and used by one hand, such as a pistol or revolver. “Retailer” means and includes every person engaged in the business of making sales at retail or for distribution, or use, or consumption, or storage to be used or consumed in this state, as defined in s. 212.02(13).

(b) not germane to discussion as it regards records.

(2) The 3-day waiting period shall not apply in the following circumstances:
(a) When a handgun is being purchased by a holder of a concealed weapons permit as defined in s. 790.06.
(b) To a trade-in of another handgun.
(3) It is a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084:
(a) For any retailer, or any employee or agent of a retailer, to deliver a handgun before the expiration of the 3-day waiting period, subject to the exceptions provided in subsection (2).
(b) For a purchaser to obtain delivery of a handgun by fraud, false pretense, or false representation.

How is Orange County going to ensure those 5% engaged in private sales at gun shows comply with their ordinance...do sting buys; then prosecute the private seller; assuring they are convicted of a 3d felony; then go and confiscate their firearms from their homes.

Now that should be incentive enough to stop private sales...HUH!
 

color of law

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Definition, definition, definition......

790.0655 Purchase and delivery of handguns; mandatory waiting period; exceptions; penalties.—
(1)(a) There shall be a mandatory 3-day waiting period, which shall be 3 days, excluding weekends and legal holidays, between the purchase and the delivery at retail of any handgun. “Purchase” means the transfer of money or other valuable consideration to the retailer. “Handgun” means a firearm capable of being carried and used by one hand, such as a pistol or revolver. “Retailer” means and includes every person engaged in the business of making sales at retail or for distribution, or use, or consumption, or storage to be used or consumed in this state, as defined in s. 212.02(13).

212.02 Definitions.—The following terms and phrases when used in this chapter have the meanings ascribed to them in this section, except where the context clearly indicates a different meaning:
(13) “Retailer” means and includes every person engaged in the business of making sales at retail or for distribution, or use, or consumption, or storage to be used or consumed in this state.

A private sale is private sale.
 

solus

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Definition, definition, definition......

790.0655 Purchase and delivery of handguns; mandatory waiting period; exceptions; penalties.—
(1)(a) There shall be a mandatory 3-day waiting period, which shall be 3 days, excluding weekends and legal holidays, between the purchase and the delivery at retail of any handgun. “Purchase” means the transfer of money or other valuable consideration to the retailer. “Handgun” means a firearm capable of being carried and used by one hand, such as a pistol or revolver. “Retailer” means and includes every person engaged in the business of making sales at retail or for distribution, or use, or consumption, or storage to be used or consumed in this state, as defined in s. 212.02(13).

212.02 Definitions.—The following terms and phrases when used in this chapter have the meanings ascribed to them in this section, except where the context clearly indicates a different meaning:
(13) “Retailer” means and includes every person engaged in the business of making sales at retail or for distribution, or use, or consumption, or storage to be used or consumed in this state.

A private sale is private sale.
Forgive me for my lack of clarity but if you noticed the OP was discussing the 5% private sales at gun shows by FL citizens and how the good county commissioners were going to stop the practice.

All I was doing is showing the existing FL statutes for the other 95% firearm sales along with punishment for giving the handgun before the 3 day window has expires.
 

color of law

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Forgive me for my lack of clarity but if you noticed the OP was discussing the 5% private sales at gun shows by FL citizens and how the good county commissioners were going to stop the practice.

All I was doing is showing the existing FL statutes for the other 95% firearm sales along with punishment for giving the handgun before the 3 day window has expires.
I'm not taking issue with your statement.

790.33 Field of regulation of firearms and ammunition preempted.—
(1) PREEMPTION.—Except as expressly provided by the State Constitution or general law, the Legislature hereby declares that it is occupying the whole field of regulation of firearms and ammunition, including the purchase, sale, transfer, taxation, manufacture, ownership, possession, storage, and transportation thereof, to the exclusion of all existing and future county, city, town, or municipal ordinances or any administrative regulations or rules adopted by local or state government relating thereto. Any such existing ordinances, rules, or regulations are hereby declared null and void.
My point is local government cannot interfere with private sales of firearms.
 

solus

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**WAS a ballot initiative. It's in the Florida Constitution now.


http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?submenu=3#A8
Uh, if you are referring to:

SECTION 8. Right to bear arms.—
(a) The right of the people to keep and bear arms in defense of themselves and of the lawful authority of the state shall not be infringed, except that the manner of bearing arms may be regulated by law.
(b) There shall be a mandatory period of three days, excluding weekends and legal holidays, between the purchase and delivery at retail of any handgun. For the purposes of this section, “purchase” means the transfer of money or other valuable consideration to the retailer, and “handgun” means a firearm capable of being carried and used by one hand, such as a pistol or revolver. Holders of a concealed weapon permit as prescribed in Florida law shall not be subject to the provisions of this paragraph.
(c) The legislature shall enact legislation implementing subsection (b) of this section, effective no later than December 31, 1991, which shall provide that anyone violating the provisions of subsection (b) shall be guilty of a felony.
(d) This restriction shall not apply to a trade in of another handgun.

Sorry hammer6, the entire document you just cited was scanned for the term "HANDGUN" and three occurrences popped up...oh lookie all three are in in this section from which FL statute 790.0655 originated.

Back to the WWW hammer6...
 

Fallschirjmäger

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Without knowing the definition being used in Florida... does the public have "right of access" to property that is being leased by a private organization and charging admission fees?
 

Fallschirjmäger

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Solus, I think he's referring to Article VIII, Section 5 of the Florida Constitution:
ARTICLE VIII
LOCAL GOVERNMENT
SECTION 5. Local option.—
(a) Local option on the legality or prohibition of the sale of intoxicating liquors, wines or beers shall be preserved to each county. The status of a county with respect thereto shall be changed only by vote of the electors in a special election called upon the petition of twenty-five per cent of the electors of the county, and not sooner than two years after an earlier election on the same question. Where legal, the sale of intoxicating liquors, wines and beers shall be regulated by law.

(b) Each county shall have the authority to require a criminal history records check and a 3 to 5-day waiting period, excluding weekends and legal holidays, in connection with the sale of any firearm occurring within such county. For purposes of this subsection, the term “sale” means the transfer of money or other valuable consideration for any firearm when any part of the transaction is conducted on property to which the public has the right of access. Holders of a concealed weapons permit as prescribed by general law shall not be subject to the provisions of this subsection when purchasing a firearm.

History.—Am. proposed by Constitution Revision Commission, Revision No. 12, 1998, filed with the Secretary of State May 5, 1998; adopted 1998.
But why is there hubbub about something adopted in 1998??
 
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color of law

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**WAS a ballot initiative. It's in the Florida Constitution now.


http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?submenu=3#A8
Why didn't you point this out in the first place. You cite the Constitution, but left out what section. Not helpful. Thanks Fallschirmjäger.

For purposes of this subsection, the term “sale” means the transfer of money or other valuable consideration for any firearm when any part of the transaction is conducted on property to which the public has the right of access.
That means public property not private property.
 

solus

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Solus, I think he's referring to Article VIII, Section 5 of the Florida Constitution:
ARTICLE VIII
LOCAL GOVERNMENT
SECTION 5. Local option.—
(a) Local option on the legality or prohibition of the sale of intoxicating liquors, wines or beers shall be preserved to each county. The status of a county with respect thereto shall be changed only by vote of the electors in a special election called upon the petition of twenty-five per cent of the electors of the county, and not sooner than two years after an earlier election on the same question. Where legal, the sale of intoxicating liquors, wines and beers shall be regulated by law.

(b) Each county shall have the authority to require a criminal history records check and a 3 to 5-day waiting period, excluding weekends and legal holidays, in connection with the sale of any firearm occurring within such county. For purposes of this subsection, the term “sale” means the transfer of money or other valuable consideration for any firearm when any part of the transaction is conducted on property to which the public has the right of access. Holders of a concealed weapons permit as prescribed by general law shall not be subject to the provisions of this subsection when purchasing a firearm.

History.—Am. proposed by Constitution Revision Commission, Revision No. 12, 1998, filed with the Secretary of State May 5, 1998; adopted 1998.

But why is there hubbub about something adopted in 1998??
Thanks Fallschirmjäger, this county's portion you cited is far more stringent than the FL's constitution general portion "right to bear arms" which only refers to a waiting period for HANDGUNS not "ANY FIREARM".

Also noted, as discussed in FL statute 790.0665, there are provisions for punishment if retailers violate the waiting period.

"Shall have the authority" means there must/should/is a country ordinance passed and in place ~ right?

Finally, the initial constitution portion I cited was from 1991, and the county 'history' portion is telling everyone in 1998 someone got a wild hair and proposed and succeeded in adding this portion under the county's portion of the FL constitution.

Again thanks Fallschirmjäger, twas appreciated.
 
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Fallschirjmäger

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Don't thank me too quickly, Solus; the portion of the Florida Constitution linked to by Hammer6 (Article VIII, Section 5 (b)) doesn't say "handguns", it says "firearms".

Finally, the initial constitution portion I cited was from 1991, and the county 'history' portion is telling everyone in 1998 someone got a wild hair and proposed and succeeded in adding this portion under the county's portion of the FL constitution.
Yeah, ummm, that doesn't happen. No one 'just gets a wild hair' and succeeds in adding anything to a state's constitution. I'm fairly sure any amendment to any Section or Article in any State's Constitution is going to require a vote by that state's legislature and a submission to its governor. It's not something someone can just sneak into the constitution on a busy Friday evening and hope everyone misses over the weekend.
To characterize it the way you're doing is somewhat... disingenuous.
 
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solus

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Broward County, aka Ft Lauderdale:

Sec. 18-96. - Waiting period; prohibition.
There shall be a mandatory five-day waiting period, which shall be five days, excluding weekends and legal holidays, in connection with the sale of firearms occurring within Broward County when the sale is a transfer of money or other valuable consideration, and any part of the sale transaction is conducted on property to which the public has the right of access. Some examples of properties to which the public has a right of access are: gun shows, firearm exhibits, wholesale and retail stores, and flea markets. No person shall transfer or receive a firearm to or from another person for five days from the hour of such sale, excluding weekends and legal holidays, when the sale is a transfer of money or other valuable consideration, and any part of the sale transaction is conducted on property to which the public has the right of access. An uninterrupted, continuous, and cumulative aggregate of 120 hours must elapse between such sale and receipt of the firearm, excluding the hours of weekends and legal holidays. A person who violates the prohibition of this Section is guilty of a violation of a county ordinance, punishable as provided in § 125.69, F.S. and the violation shall be prosecuted in the same manner as misdemeanors are prosecuted.

Dade County, aka Miami:
Sec. 21-20.18. - Five-day waiting period and criminal history records check on firearms sales.
(a) Definitions. For purposes of this section, the following terms shall be defined as follows:
(1) Any part of the transaction means any part of the sales transaction, including but not limited to, the offer of sale, negotiations, the agreement to sell, the transfer of consideration, or the transfer of the firearm.
(2) Antique firearms means any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; and any replica of any such firearm if such replica
(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or
(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.
(3) Firearm means any weapon which will, is designed to, or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; the frame or receiver of any such weapon; and firearm muffler or firearm silencer; any destructive device; or any machine gun. Such term does not include an antique firearm.
(4) Property to which the public has the right of access means any real or personal property to which the public has a right of access, including property owned by either public or private individuals, firms and entities and expressly includes, but is not limited to, flea markets, gun shows and firearms exhibitions.
(5) Sale means the transfer of money or other valuable consideration.
(b) Application and enforcement of section. Law enforcement officers shall have the right to enforce the provisions of this section against any person found violating these provisions within their jurisdiction.
(c) Sale and delivery of firearms; mandatory five-day waiting period. There shall be a mandatory five-day waiting period, which shall be five full days, excluding weekends and legal holidays, between the hour of the sale and the hour of the delivery of any firearm when any part of the transaction is conducted within Miami-Dade County on property to which the public has the right of access.
 

solus

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No legislative vote needed...

In 1968, Florida became the only state that allows for its state constitution to be revisited and changed through a regularly scheduled commission called the Constitution Revision Commission (CRC). The CRC, which meets every 20 years, is a group of 37 commissioners who examine the relevance and applicability of Florida’s Constitution to current and future needs.

In February 2017, Florida will name its third CRC. The CRC itself is an unusual creature of constitutional construction and is not within one of the traditional three branches of government. A separate lobbyist registration is required. Traditionally, the Governor’s Office has provided full time staff, including an Executive Director. The CRC is led by a Chair, which is appointed by the Governor.


The 1998 Commission passed eight out of nine proposals, three of which would have failed today due to the 60 percent vote threshold. The CRC holds incredible power over Florida’s Constitution. Their decisions on topics ranging from gambling to education to redistricting to the courts, could impact Florida’s families and businesses for the next 20 years.

As stated someone got a wild hair, proposed the concept, the CRC approved the concept, put it on the ballot, and citizens approved the concept into law.

2018 is FL’s CRC year... here are this 20 year changes going to the citizens ballot in November,
https://www.aclufl.org/en/campaigns/constitution-revision-commission
 
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