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Traffic Cameras: 4A Violation?

Citizen

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
18,269
Location
Fairfax Co., VA
SNIP...The photos provide a prima facie case that the owner of the vehicle is in violation of the ordinance. If the owner feels he has a defense to his vehicle going through the red, he can have a hearing and present the defense. Therefore the owner is innocent until guilt has been established either by paying the fine (which is pleading guilty) or by failing to refute the prima facie case created by the photo and being found guilty in court.

You may disagree with the ordinance for a thousand other reasons, but an argument that "innocent until proven guilty" is being violated has zero foundation.

I haven't been following the discussion; and I'm certainly not taking sides here.

But, something occurred to me. Meaning Eye's post jogged something for me (thanks, Eye).

The whole prima facie thing as applied here in this ordinance and similar ordinances. Its a construct in order to force someone to defend earlier than he would without the construct.

Its one thing to say that an open container in a brown bag at the bus stop is prima facie evidence of drinking in public. The connection between the evidence and the offense is so close as to be a very, very likely conclusion. Here, the prima facie concept is too obviously a construct intended to facilitate getting the money, given there are numerous times the driver wouldn't be the owner.

Another aspect is that without the prima facie angle the whole [strike]revenue[/strike] regulatory scheme would be almost, if not entirely, a nullity. They had to put that prima facie angle aspect in there to make it work.

All these machinations, and another slip down the slope, so some camera makers could make money, and the mis-government could collect fines.
 

oldbanger

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2010
Messages
475
Location
beckofbeyond - Idaho
Some defenses against the prima facie case presented by the photographs:

It shall be an affirmative defense to the imposition of civil liability under this article, to be proven by a preponderance of the evidence, that:

(1) The traffic-control signal was not in proper position and sufficiently visible to an ordinarily observant person;

I would just say I did not see it, what is "in proper position feet/inches" ?

(2) The operator of the motor vehicle was acting in compliance with the lawful order or direction of a police officer;

He told me to do it.

(3) The operator of the motor vehicle violated the instructions of the traffic-control signal so as to yield the right-of-way to an immediately approaching authorized emergency vehicle;

there was "an immediately approaching authorized emergency vehicle"

...

(5) The motor vehicle was... being operated by a person other than the owner of the vehicle without the effective consent of the owner;

I did not give consent

...

(7) The presence of ice, snow, unusual amounts of rain or other unusually hazardous road conditions existed that would make compliance with this article more dangerous under the circumstances than non-compliance...

All these

This could take all day...
 

oldbanger

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2010
Messages
475
Location
beckofbeyond - Idaho
The camera shots provide a prima facie case that one has broken the law.

Prima facie ...the literal translation would be "at first face", prima first, facie face, both in the ablative case. It is used in modern legal English to signify that on first examination, a matter appears to be self-evident from the facts. In common law jurisdictions, prima facie denotes evidence which – unless rebutted – would be sufficient to prove a particular proposition or fact. The term is used similarly in academic philosophy.

Most legal proceedings require a prima facie case to exist, following which proceedings may then commence to test it, and create a ruling.

I would go with "following which proceedings may then commence to test it"

"It is logically and intuitively clear that just because a matter appears to be self-evident from the facts that both the notion of the evidence presenting a case in a self-evident manner and the facts actually being facts (which, presumably, would require evidence of at least a minimum degree of quality) can often be reduced to entirely subjective interpretations that are independent of any truthful merit by sufficiently skilled individuals.

That is to say, appearances can be deceptive even to the objectively minded, and they can be subjectively interpreted (meaning that what amounts to a prima facie case for one judging individual would not do so for another). Just because a matter appears to be evident from a certain presentation of the facts it does not follow that that matter has any truthful validity - which would limit the common sensical utility of prima facie evidence.

As an example, consider the following:

Statement I: "John has been shot dead. Joe has been found near John with a smoking gun. Therefore, this is prima facie evidence of Joe having shot John with a smoking gun." [the infamous Smoking Gun example]

Apparently, this (in an overly simplified manner) indicates that we have a prima facie case for arresting (and convicting) Joe for shooting John.

However, add the following piece of evidence to the prima facie case calculations:

Statement II: "Both Joe and John were within a shooting club at the time at which John was shot dead. "

This example indicates that it is far from clear that Joe actually shot John dead due to certain facts having been selectively highlighted and presented for the purposes of the prima facie case. That is to say, because relevant circumstances are either omitted or illogically/irrationally presented for the purposes of the prima facie case - it appears as if the statement made amounts to a prima facie case. This is because sufficient evidence has apparently been presented for the purposes of the prima facie case, but necessary evidence has been omitted (a reasonable argument would be that as much evidence concerning the particulars of the case are presented within a prima facie case as possible).

Given our informal presentation of the prima facie case in Statement I, we have not contradicted any of the evidence by introducing the facts of Statement II. However, it is clear that a reasonable person would find Statement I unpalatable as a prima facie case as it contains no information relating to the particulars of a case - and it seems clear that Statement II provides sufficient reason to throw out Statement I out as being a sufficient basis for a prima facie case on reasonable grounds.

These criticisms are conceptually inherent to the notion of a prima facie case or evidence. They do not relate to the example or the quality of the evidence. The situation arises because all (or, at least, a reasonably water tight amount) of the relevant particulars of the case are not presented in an objective manner."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prima_facie_case
 

eye95

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,524
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
Boil it down and "prima facie" means that, if unrefuted, the case for guilt has been made. Since the opportunity to refute the prima facie case is offered, "innocent until proven guilty" is not violated.

The prima facie case is where all prosecutions begin. Without it, the case would never even be brought or, if brought, would be dismissed before a defense is even presented.

Oh, and the defenses you present would all fail absent your ability to provide support for your assertions. They are of the same quality as a defense, in the face of convincing evidence otherwise, saying "I didn't do it."
 
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