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Threatening with a Gun vs. Shooting at Someone, There are different legal standards for the two actions ... Prof. Eugene Volokh’s Conspiracy

Doug_Nightmare

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Nov 21, 2018
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400
https://reason.com/2019/08/22/threatening-with-a-gun-vs-shooting-at-someone/
American law generally has different rules for use of deadly force in self-defense than for use of non-deadly force:
  1. By and large, you can use deadly force to defend yourself only if you're being threatened with death, serious bodily injury, rape, kidnapping, or, in many states, robbery (and, in some, burglary).
  2. You can generally use nondeadly force, though, to defend yourself against any unlawful attack, and also to defend your property against theft or unlawful damage.
[ ... ]
Michigan, Alaska, Oklahoma
 

OC for ME

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Jan 6, 2010
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White Oak Plantation
...the legislature concluded that only peace officers making an arrest should have the authority to threaten deadly force in situations where the actual use of deadly force was not justified.
...great...note to self, do not visit AK...
 

Firearms Iinstuctor

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Jul 12, 2011
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northern wis
Defensive display can be a very good deterrent.

But people have to realize that there are individuals that really don't care.

Their reasons can vary all over the place.

It is not to be taken lightly one has to be very careful using it.

It works otherwise LEO's would not use it as often as they do.

But civilian use would have a much more limited application.
 

Doug_Nightmare

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Nov 21, 2018
Messages
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...great...note to self, do not visit AK...
Yeah, but remember that there are three classes of citizens (at least) in AK. There are First Class Citizen cops (as above), there are second class citizens “civilians” like you and I, and then there are third class citizens in AK.

Our government will fail for this reason, just as the Athenian ‘democracy’ fell to the Spartan Oligarchs.
 

solus

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Aug 22, 2013
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here nc
Great newspeek article which starts specifically discussing MI,
There are different legal standards for the two actions, the Michigan Court of Appeals correctly concludes (in the Siwatu-Salama Ra case).

then leaps into a ‘general’ discussion of AMERICAN law and use of deadly force “standards”!

The swishy article then takes the generalized law and makes a pronouncement of ‘fact’ of law and then uses the “fact” to argue MI AK, & OK court cases.

Good smoke and mirror reporting Jeeves...

For the record, per NCGS 14-34, Assault by Pointing a Gun, NC citizens may NOT point a firearm, loaded or not, nor in jest, at another citizen...classified a felony.

Oh, you oftentimes hear bravado from individuals who state they are going ‘kill’ intruders or those who mess with them...in NC, 14-32a, Assault with a deadly weapon with intent kill, a felony; or NC 14-32c, Assault with a deadly weapon with intent to kill inflecting serious bodily injury, a felony; as does being charged under NC 14-17 with premeditation and deliberation - homicide, comes into play!

So as for “generalized” statements of use of deadly force...there are many flavors of use of deadly force hidden in the naked cities of this century’s law tomes...
 
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color of law

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Oct 7, 2007
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4,893
Location
Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Montana Code Annotated
Openly Carrying Weapon -- Display -- Exemption
45-3-111. Openly carrying weapon -- display -- exemption. (1) Any person who is not otherwise prohibited from doing so by federal or state law may openly carry a weapon and may communicate to another person the fact that the person has a weapon.
(2) If a person reasonably believes that the person or another person is threatened with bodily harm, the person may warn or threaten the use of force, including deadly force, against the aggressor, including drawing or presenting a weapon.
(3) This section does not limit the authority of the board of regents or other postsecondary institutions to regulate the carrying of weapons, as defined in 45-8-361(5)(b), on their campuses.
History: En. Sec. 2, Ch. 332, L. 2009.
 

JTHunter2

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 11, 2017
Messages
253
Location
Planet Earth
Defensive display can be a very good deterrent.

But people have to realize that there are individuals that really don't care.

Their reasons can vary all over the place.

It is not to be taken lightly one has to be very careful using it.

It works otherwise LEO's would not use it as often as they do.

But civilian use would have a much more limited application.
That is one of the reasons "brandishing" shouldn't be a crime in a SD situation.
 

Maverick9

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Joined
Apr 7, 2013
Messages
1,404
Location
Mid-atlantic
This experience I had a couple of years ago is "kind of" relevant, if only to give members a sense of scale.

I was returning to my car from shopping, had my cart, and was about 20 feet from the front of my car.

About 5 feet behind my car was a young man (30?) and a woman, and the woman had two dogs on a fixed leash, best I can recall.

The guy was behind her slightly. When they came around the back passenger side I was already vectored to go to my driver's side door. I was already feeling my pulse pounding and not just from getting a good deal on my milk and eggs.

The guy smoothly went wide of her, but still almost 30 feet from me and started with a 'spiel':

"Excuse me, sir..."

Now I almost NEVER yell, swear, stomp or shout, but before I knew it, I yelled:

GET THE FOXTROT BACK...

...and maybe that was it, because I had reached my driver's side door and hit the fob once.

The couple was, and this is an understatement, staggered back and was now 30 feet laterally from me, otherside of the car.

I got in, some struggle, got the bags in the passenger seat (and unknown to me dropped my phone on the ground), and got the door shut and locked.

I had the key in the car, the engine on and no other cars around me. I heard something fall but chose to ignore it.

The GUY, now suddenly grew a set of nads and started walking towards the car, arms apart, telling me I needed to take a course in civility and decorum but I just drove sharply to the right and was off. I should have sat there or maybe circled back because they 'followed' me, and didn't go see the parking area. (Fortunately).

But it was clear to me that even experienced grifters/predators with a "Dog Brigade" as backup, and a plan to 'get 'er done' and scare people enough to drop everything and run, could be startled, scared, back off involuntarily and that is all it took.

IF I had not made it into the car, been boxed in, not immediately locked doors, not had a key fob, not been broad daylight...

I could go on, but 'LUCK' was all on my side and having an AR slung over my shoulder would NOT have saved me if it had gone pear-shaped which it could have done with two dogs and two people who trained this ploy and were not armed.

It was a "Traveler" level ploy, and they were experienced grifters who had used this low level, but scary tactic to get their task done.

FWIW
 
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