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state ferry encounter(s)

5jeffro7

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2009
Messages
172
Location
Mountlake Terrace, Washington, USA
Friday, as I was on the 3:00 Seattle to bremerton ferry (walla walla), I was wandering around, taking pictures uf the scenery. As I rounded a corner, I hear, "Excuse me, sir". I turn to see, through a secure fence (leading up to th wheelhouse), a crew member in a white shirt speaking to me.

It was inquired as to whether or not I was LE, and when I stated that I wasn't, he stated that he wasn't sure it was legal for me to be wearing a firearm "like that". I explained that it was fully within state law & was told that he "would be making some calls to check it out" and wished me a good day.

Shortly after I'd returned to my vehicle, one of the deck hands was recording my license number. I fully expected to be the subject of a traffic stop by bremerton or ESP, fortunately, this wasn't the case.

I'm now headed back to Seattle (again on the Walla Walla) on the 4:15 sailing, hopefully things are smoother today than Friday.
 

Nullifier

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2008
Messages
11
Location
, ,
He wasn't sure?

" he stated that he wasn't sure it was legal for me to be wearing a firearm "like that". "

Ahem.....he's not sure? I would have really grilled him over this. "You're not sure? What do you mean you're not sure? Before you do say anything else, you'd better MAKE sure you know what the law is. Now, what is this 'not sure' business again, exactly? Hmm? Go back and look it up, here, I will give you the website to do it"

Then again, maybe I'm just a smart@$$. But I'm sick and tired of people telling me what they "think" the law is, or what they "believe" it is, or what they "heard" it is, or what they "saw on TV" (like in a a FICTIONAL episode of Law & Order.)
 

5jeffro7

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2009
Messages
172
Location
Mountlake Terrace, Washington, USA
I'll take some of the blame as well....

Now that I'm home, I can type a more long-winded synopsis of why I didn't do a better job of explaining my legal behaviour to the captain when I had the chance:

When I first began to OC, I always carried pamphlets with me (gun rights pamphlets, training bulletins, pamphlets about state & federal laws regarding self-defense, etc....I was also well-studied with regards to having memorized (or so I'd thought) the pertinant RCW's regarding firearms, etc....

with the exception of the single incident at a Snohomish county park, I never had much ocassion to recite said RCW's, and in the case of someone asking me, I'd always be more than happy to give them a paophlet or two for their own reading. Due to lack of a firearm for about 6 months, I haven't been OCing, and have thus become complacent & forgetful of the RCW's..my bad, I"ll admit.

When confronted by the captain, it was a school kids' worst nightmare...a pop quiz that he had no idea was coming & wasn't one little bit prepared for..It's highly likely that had the captain asked for my name, I'd have had to stop and think about it before offering a response.

I'll now remember to carry pamphlets with me whenever I'm OCing, plus I'm about to start re-memorizing some important RCW cites.
 

BigDave

Opt-Out Members
Joined
Nov 22, 2006
Messages
3,463
Location
Yakima, Washington, USA
5jeffro7, sounds like you did just fine and preparing for a more informed response if it occurs again.
Many have said and repeated something to the effect of normalizing open carry, if we take each opportunity to engage in a conflict, is this the normalizing they are talking about or how you handled it? I think how you handled it is the better of the two choices stated here thus far.
 

Nullifier

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2008
Messages
11
Location
, ,
you did fine

To clarify, I wasn't criticizing you in any way, shape or form. You did fine, and that's the point. Legal Open Carriers KNOW the law, all of it, and how how it applies to them.

99.9999999% of the time, someone question a legal open carrier does NOT know the law. And that's the problem. They only THINK they do, and they base their judgments and actions on what they THINK the law says.

Carry on, my friend.
 

Bill Starks

State Researcher
Joined
Dec 27, 2007
Messages
4,310
Location
Nortonville, KY, USA
I think, just does not cut it with me..... I went to get my step-son from the Friday Harbor ferry and saw "No Firearms" signs posted. I wrote and received the following letter. Now I'm working on the signs. From what I read in the email, it looks as though they are treating the ferry as a vehicle.


Wingo, Elaine <WingoE@wsdot.wa.gov>
to Bill Starks <m1gunr@gmail.com>
date Sat, Apr 16, 2011 at 9:22 AM
subject RE: traveling to/from Friday harbor
mailed-by wsdot.wa.gov



Dear Bill,

These are the rules for carrying firearms aboard the ferries:



Carrying firearms aboard the ferries

WSF follows Revised Code of Washington (RCW) 9.41.050 for carrying firearms.

RCW 9.41.050

(1)

(a) Except in the person's place of abode or fixed place of business, a person shall not carry a pistol concealed on his or her person without a license to carry a concealed pistol.

(b) Every licensee shall have his or her concealed pistol license in his or her immediate possession at all times that he or she is required by this section to have a concealed pistol license and shall display the same upon demand to any police officer or to any other person when and if required by law to do so. Any violation of this subsection (1)(b) shall be a class 1 civil infraction under chapter 7.80 RCW and shall be punished accordingly pursuant to chapter 7.80 RCW and the infraction rules for courts of limited jurisdiction.

(2)

(a) A person shall not carry or place a loaded pistol in any vehicle unless the person has a license to carry a concealed pistol and: (i) The pistol is on the licensee's person, (ii) the licensee is within the vehicle at all times that the pistol is there, or (iii) the licensee is away from the vehicle and the pistol is locked within the vehicle and concealed from view from outside the vehicle.

(b) A violation of this subsection is a misdemeanor.

(3)

(a) A person at least eighteen years of age who is in possession of an unloaded pistol shall not leave the unloaded pistol in a vehicle unless the unloaded pistol is locked within the vehicle and concealed from view from outside the vehicle.

(b) A violation of this subsection is a misdemeanor.





Thank you,
Elaine WSF Information Agent
 
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Mike

Site Co-Founder
Joined
May 13, 2006
Messages
8,710
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia, USA
maybe you all could organize an open carry ferry day - everybody bring families, have a picnic on deck, etc. and invtie the press - might be educational for all
 

jt59

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 19, 2010
Messages
1,025
Location
Central South Sound
I think, just does not cut it with me..... I went to get my step-son from the Friday Harbor ferry and saw "No Firearms" signs posted. I wrote and received the following letter. Now I'm working on the signs. From what I read in the email, it looks as though they are treating the ferry as a vehicle.


Wingo, Elaine <WingoE@wsdot.wa.gov>
to Bill Starks <m1gunr@gmail.com>
date Sat, Apr 16, 2011 at 9:22 AM
subject RE: traveling to/from Friday harbor
mailed-by wsdot.wa.gov



Dear Bill,

These are the rules for carrying firearms aboard the ferries:



Carrying firearms aboard the ferries

WSF follows Revised Code of Washington (RCW) 9.41.050 for carrying firearms.

RCW 9.41.050

(1)

(a) Except in the person's place of abode or fixed place of business, a person shall not carry a pistol concealed on his or her person without a license to carry a concealed pistol.

(b) Every licensee shall have his or her concealed pistol license in his or her immediate possession at all times that he or she is required by this section to have a concealed pistol license and shall display the same upon demand to any police officer or to any other person when and if required by law to do so. Any violation of this subsection (1)(b) shall be a class 1 civil infraction under chapter 7.80 RCW and shall be punished accordingly pursuant to chapter 7.80 RCW and the infraction rules for courts of limited jurisdiction.

(2)

(a) A person shall not carry or place a loaded pistol in any vehicle unless the person has a license to carry a concealed pistol and: (i) The pistol is on the licensee's person, (ii) the licensee is within the vehicle at all times that the pistol is there, or (iii) the licensee is away from the vehicle and the pistol is locked within the vehicle and concealed from view from outside the vehicle.

(b) A violation of this subsection is a misdemeanor.

(3)

(a) A person at least eighteen years of age who is in possession of an unloaded pistol shall not leave the unloaded pistol in a vehicle unless the unloaded pistol is locked within the vehicle and concealed from view from outside the vehicle.

(b) A violation of this subsection is a misdemeanor.





Thank you,
Elaine WSF Information Agent
Well,,,,

I guess this settles the debate (at least by the WSF) of the status of the ferry...vehicle or highway. :lol:
 

amlevin

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2007
Messages
5,952
Location
North of Seattle, Washington, USA
Seems like a half-assed approach

An "official" on the ferry approaches you with an "I'm not sure" statement. Seems like he had more than enough time to get on the phone and check first, before making the statement. After all, you weren't going anywhere until they docked the boat.

He works for the State and all he had to do is contact the agency that's responsible for enforcing the law on the highway system that they are part of. That way he wouldn't end up looking so dumb.
 

MKEgal

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2010
Messages
4,387
Location
in front of my computer, WI
That email from Elaine Wingo talks about carrying concealed (which he wasn't),
and shows that the law says he has to have a priviledge permit in order to carry loaded in or on a vehicle (which probably the ferry legally is).

Nobody asked if he had a priviledge permit, the official just told him he "wasn't sure" he was allowed to carry "like that". (If you're not sure, keep your mouth shut & go find out.)

Or the pistol could have been unloaded, and even without a permit he'd be legal.

Combine the lack of knowledge of the law by the crew person with the intimidation of recording your license plate, & I'd be annoyed at the least. A letter is in order.
 

MSG Laigaie

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 10, 2011
Messages
3,165
Location
Philipsburg, Montana
From what I read in the email, it looks as though they are treating the ferry as a vehicle.
(a) A person shall not carry or place a loaded pistol in any vehicle unless the person has a license to carry a concealed pistol and: (i) The pistol is on the licensee's person, (ii) the licensee is within the vehicle at all times that the pistol is there, or (iii) the licensee is away from the vehicle and the pistol is locked within the vehicle and concealed from view from outside the vehicle.
So, if they consider it a vehicle, you carry like you do in the car? W/O a CPL you would do the same as in the car, unloaded, magazine out. That is what I read. I suspect they may have done the research and went on with real life. As far as the photo goes, they had doubt as to your legality and wanted to document it. Yeah, that's the ticket!
 

jt59

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 19, 2010
Messages
1,025
Location
Central South Sound
How does that settle the debate at all? RCW 9.41.050 does not prohibit the open carrying of a loaded handgun on a state highway with or without a CPL. To me, that means I can't conceal the gun on the ferry without a CPL.

If the ferry is a vehicle, how do they serve alcohol in an open container and not violate the open container in a vehicle law?
hahaha...

Good one! so, while I don't concede...yet, if I have a big diesel pusher RV, and some one is traveling in the coach (couch) area, can they also not have an open container of alcohol? ...when driving....and the corresponding question of carry?
 

Sparky508

Newbie
Joined
Jul 10, 2009
Messages
347
Location
Graham, , USA
So lets say a ferry unto itself is a vehicle, and your on your way to a lawful outdoor activity. Hell, as far as I'm concerned, I'm always on my way to a lawful outdoor activity.
 

joeroket

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 5, 2006
Messages
3,339
Location
Everett, Washington, USA
Well their website says they act as a marine highway. That contradicts what the e-mail says.

Washington State Ferries operates the largest ferry fleet in the United States. 23 ferries cross Puget Sound and its inland waterways, carrying over 23 million passengers. From Tacoma, Washington, to Sidney, British Columbia, we travel up and down the Sound, acting as a marine highway for commercial users, tourists and daily commuters alike.
 

gogodawgs

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Oct 25, 2009
Messages
5,675
Location
Federal Way, Washington, USA
It is both.

I stand by my statement that the Ferry and Ferry System act in a dual capacity. If I am walking down the street and OCing my firearm and I walk onto the Ferry System, I would expect that I can do so without a CPL if I am OC.
 

BigDave

Opt-Out Members
Joined
Nov 22, 2006
Messages
3,463
Location
Yakima, Washington, USA
What is being argued here is a Ferry a Vehicle or not will be decided by someone else then this group.
(2)(a) A person shall not carry or place a loaded pistol in any vehicle--snip
If one was cited for it, I am sure it would be the WSP and I am not so sure they would since they have responded to other posters here about open carrying and I do remember ever hearing them being cited.

I think you will have a hard time explaining how a Ferry is not a vehicle.
It is not defined from my knowledge in the RCW's so the court will likely look for what they would accept the definition would be and thus where the danger lays.

We are all Big Boys and Girls so we make our choices and we end up benefiting or paying for what we do.
 

hermannr

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2011
Messages
2,332
Location
Okanogan Highland
Your CPL permits you to carry a LOADED pistol in a Vehicle, it does not require you to carry it concealed. You cannot carry a LOADED pistol in a vehicle without a CPL. If the State Ferry is a Vehicle, and I think it is considered such, at least to me, then I would reason that for my pistol to be loaded (carried open or concealed) on a ferry, I would have to have my CPL on my person at the time.
 
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