Somehow "I told you so" just doesn't do it justice

[Straight_Shooter]

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Max G wrote:

("find away" LMAO!!!!!)

Wow . . . do you Iowa Carry guys reallyclaim this "person?"

 

[Straight_Shooter]

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IA_farmboy wrote:

724.11 states, in part:

However, for renewal of a permit the training program requirements in section 724.9, subsection 1, shall apply or the renewal applicant may choose to qualify on a firing range under the supervision of an instructor certified by the national rifle association or the department of public safety or another state's department of public safety, state police department, or similar certifying body. Such training or qualification must occur within the twelve=month period prior to the expiration of the applicant's current permit.

It sounds like the APPLICANT gets to choose which training will qualify. The standard for renewal is the same for first application OR the applicant may choose a lower standard to re-qualify.

The revised 724.9(1)a permits the NRA to supervise the training or re-qualification. 724.9(1)b would seem to allow the sheriff to supervise any training or re-qualification. What confuses me is that people that hold military discharge papers would seem to get a lifetime pass on any re-qualification under 724.9(1)d.

It was pointed out to me that we have four years to fix this before anyone even needs to think about getting training. One obvious solution is to remove the re-qualification provision in 724.11. Other more desirable solutions is to get unlicensed open carry, that would remove the need to get a permit to carry or at least convince sheriffs to offer the re-qualification for free (or at least cheap) just so that the sheeple aren't startled in the county. There is also the possibility to get constitutional carry in Iowa before then.

This is also counting chickens before they hatch since the governor has not signed the bill into law just yet. What is taking so long?

IFB -

There are some efforts taking place right now to see if this training can be offered free or at very low cost . . . however, I don't think the statement about waiting four years is quite correct . . . anyone who seeks a renewal after the first of the year, under this law, would be subject to the requirements to retrain.

The whole thing will revolve around the vague language "other certifying body." Since the NRA had to do absolutely nothing to become a "certifying body," will the same be true of others? (I doubt it) . . . and who exactly has the say as to whether someone issuing a certificate of completion is a valid "certifying body?" Probably should have said the DPS, but it doesn't. I for one will be contacting the DPS onces this becomes law and asking the questions. But I don't expect coherent answers . . . at least not right away. I have no doubt that the DPS will be making standards (and therefore the law - outside of the legislature) as they go.

For all the talk of "statewide trainingstandards" that Iowa Carry always talks about, this bill incorporates nothing of the sort. It is full of ambiguous language that will no doubt evolve into years of court debate, etc, as to what this all means.

I know that people like Maxie are incapable of understanding what "vague language" means and how this is very poorly written law . . . but I know that you understand it . . this bill sucks . . .

 

[Max G]

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SS continues his rants which make all gun owners look like nuts.

When SS and his brothers marched around the Capitol, you could almost hear Dueling Banjos playing. They were known as the stoned-out Zombies, as theywalked in lock-step with blank stares.

One of em, even fell asleep in the House Chamber, in the Handicapped seating area. Priceless!

Great bunch they are.

 

[Max G]

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SS, you out of rehab already?

 

[Max G]

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Or maybe SS was "out of the country" again, on one of his missions.

 

[Max G]

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As for the complaint about training....

SF 2379 specifies "A copy of any document indicating participation in any firearms shooting competition" is evidence of qualification.

So a Steel Shoot or USPSA event costing $5 to $10 is an onerous requirement? Oh, and it's not tied to the NRA.



SF 2379:

724.9 Firearm training program. 1. An applicant shall demonstrate knowledge of firearm safety by any of the following means: a. Completion of any national rifle association handgun safety training course. b. Completion of any handgun safety training course available to the general public offered by a law enforcement agency, community college, college, private or public institution or organization, or firearms training school, utilizing instructors certified by the national rifle association or the department of public safety or another state's department of public safety, state police department, or similar certifying body. c. Completion of any handgun safety training course offered for security guards, investigators, special deputies, or any division or subdivision of a law enforcement or security enforcement agency approved by the department of public safety. d. Completion of small arms training while serving with the armed forces of the United States as evidenced by any of the following: (1) For personnel released or retired from active duty, possession of an honorable discharge or general discharge under honorable conditions. (2) For personnel on active duty or serving in one of the national guard or reserve components of the armed forces of the United States, possession of a certificate of completion of basic training with a service record of successful completion of small arms training and qualification. e. Completion of a law enforcement agency firearms training course that qualifies a peace officer to carry a firearm in the normal course of the peace officer's duties.

------------

2. Evidence of qualification under this section may be documented by any of the following: a. A photocopy of a certificate of completion or any similar document indicating completion of any course or class identified in subsection 1. b. An affidavit from the instructor, school, organization, or group that conducted or taught a course or class identified in subsection 1 attesting to the completion of the course or class by the applicant. c. A copy of any document indicating participation in any firearms shooting competition.

 

[Straight_Shooter]

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Max G wrote:

As for the complaint about training....

SF 2379 specifies "A copy of any document indicating participation in any firearms shooting competition" is evidence of qualification.

So a Steel Shoot or USPSA event costing $5 to $10 is an onerous requirement? Oh, and it's not tied to the NRA.



SF 2379:

724.9 Firearm training program. 1. An applicant shall demonstrate knowledge of firearm safety by any of the following means: a. Completion of any national rifle association handgun safety training course. b. Completion of any handgun safety training course available to the general public offered by a law enforcement agency, community college, college, private or public institution or organization, or firearms training school, utilizing instructors certified by the national rifle association or the department of public safety or another state's department of public safety, state police department, or similar certifying body. c. Completion of any handgun safety training course offered for security guards, investigators, special deputies, or any division or subdivision of a law enforcement or security enforcement agency approved by the department of public safety. d. Completion of small arms training while serving with the armed forces of the United States as evidenced by any of the following: (1) For personnel released or retired from active duty, possession of an honorable discharge or general discharge under honorable conditions. (2) For personnel on active duty or serving in one of the national guard or reserve components of the armed forces of the United States, possession of a certificate of completion of basic training with a service record of successful completion of small arms training and qualification. e. Completion of a law enforcement agency firearms training course that qualifies a peace officer to carry a firearm in the normal course of the peace officer's duties.

------------

2. Evidence of qualification under this section may be documented by any of the following: a. A photocopy of a certificate of completion or any similar document indicating completion of any course or class identified in subsection 1. b. An affidavit from the instructor, school, organization, or group that conducted or taught a course or class identified in subsection 1 attesting to the completion of the course or class by the applicant. c. A copy of any document indicating participation in any firearms shooting competition.

Ya know Maxie, generally your about as useful at teats on a boar . . . but in this case, I think you may have actually fallen into the mud and come out clean . . . when I ponder this section, this may be just the loophole needed, especially when viewed in light of the paragraph immediately following it:

"2. Evidence of qualification under this section may be
documented by any of the following:


c. A copy of any document indicating participation in any
firearms shooting competition.

3. An issuing officer shall not condition the issuance of a
permit on training requirements that are not specified in or
that exceed the requirements of this section.


Yup . . . I actually like it . . . all I have to do is hold a "fun shoot" where a bunch of guys get together and swap stories and then see who can hit the "X-ring" the most times, then hand out some certificates . . .

Thanks Maxie . . . I finally got something good out of you other than drool . . .

SS

 

[Straight_Shooter]

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Straight_Shooter wrote:

. . . when I ponder this section, this may be just the loophole needed, especially when viewed in light of the paragraph immediately following it:

"2. Evidence of qualification under this section may be
documented by any of the following:


c. A copy of any document indicating participation in any
firearms shooting competition.

3. An issuing officer shall not condition the issuance of a
permit on training requirements that are not specified in or
that exceed the requirements of this section.


Yup . . . I actually like it . . . all I have to do is hold a "fun shoot" where a bunch of guys get together and swap stories and then see who can hit the "X-ring" the most times, then hand out some certificates . . .

Thanks Maxie . . . I finally got something good out of you other than drool . . .

SS

Well, now that I look a little closer and ponder this, this is just another example of how poorly written this legislation is . . . and how it could cause LOTS of misunderstanding.Below is the training section in it's entirity . . . what is problematic is that section 1 calls for the applicant to demonstrate knowledge of firearm safety through specific means:

724.9 Firearm training program.

1. An applicant shall demonstrate knowledge of firearm

safety by any of the following means:

a. Completion of any national rifle association handgun

safety training course.

b. Completion of any handgun safety training course

available to the general public offered by a law enforcement

agency, community college, college, private or public

institution or organization, or firearms training school,

utilizing instructors certified by the national rifle

association or the department of public safety or another

state's department of public safety, state police department,

or similar certifying body.

c. Completion of any handgun safety training course offered

for security guards, investigators, special deputies, or any

division or subdivision of a law enforcement or security

enforcement agency approved by the department of public safety.

d. Completion of small arms training while serving with the

armed forces of the United States as evidenced by any of the

following:

(1) For personnel released or retired from active duty,

possession of an honorable discharge or general discharge under

honorable conditions.

(2) For personnel on active duty or serving in one of the

national guard or reserve components of the armed forces of the

United States, possession of a certificate of completion of

basic training with a service record of successful completion

of small arms training and qualification.

e. Completion of a law enforcement agency firearms training

course that qualifies a peace officer to carry a firearm in the

normal course of the peace officer's duties.



NONE of the above options mentions the use of a"firearms shooting competition," yetthere it is as item 2c. below; Tell me that one won't have anti-gunsheriff's saying "sorry,doesn't meet the requirementsof thefirearms training program just'cause you were in a shooting competition."


Once again . . . this law sucks . . . it is so poorly written it is going to result in havocwith people trying to get a permit and being turned down. And you can bet money that individual sheriffs' will be determining on their own what qualifies and what doesn't . . . it is crap . . . plain and simple crap.



2. Evidence of qualification under this section may be

documented by any of the following:

a. A photocopy of a certificate of completion or any

similar document indicating completion of any course or class

identified in subsection 1.

b. An affidavit from the instructor, school, organization,

or group that conducted or taught a course or class identified

in subsection 1 attesting to the completion of the course or

class by the applicant.

c. A copy of any document indicating participation in any

firearms shooting competition.



3. An issuing officer shall not condition the issuance of a

permit on training requirements that are not specified in or

that exceed the requirements of this section.

 

[Max G]

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I suppose it will depend upon what "is" means.

2 c or not 2 c, that is the question.

 

[Max G]

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Of course for renewals, which 35,000 Iowans will be applying for in 2011, there's a shooting option vs training.

Then by 2016, it may be that the training requirment for renewals is gone.





SF 2379:

However, for renewal of
a permit the training program requirements in section 724.9
[/u]may be waived for renewal permits, subsection 1, shall apply
or the renewal applicant may choose to qualify on a firing
range under the supervision of an instructor certified by the
national rifle association or the department of public safety
or another state's department of public safety, state police
department, or similar certifying body. Such training or
qualification must occur within the twelve=month period prior
to the expiration of the applicant's current permit.

 

[IA_farmboy]

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IFB -

There are some efforts taking place right now to see if this training can be offered free or at very low cost . . . however, I don't think the statement about waiting four years is quite correct . . . anyone who seeks a renewal after the first of the year, under this law, would be subject to the requirements to retrain.

We don't WAIT for four years, we WORK for four years. Yes, if this bill becomes law then everyone that currently has a permit will be held to this standard next year. Point is that there will be a four year window created by this bill that no one will renew, it is in that time we can work to make sure no one will have to pay out a dime in re-training costs.

The whole thing will revolve around the vague language "other certifying body." Since the NRA had to do absolutely nothing to become a "certifying body," will the same be true of others? (I doubt it) . . . and who exactly has the say as to whether someone issuing a certificate of completion is a valid "certifying body?" Probably should have said the DPS, but it doesn't. I for one will be contacting the DPS onces this becomes law and asking the questions. But I don't expect coherent answers . . . at least not right away. I have no doubt that the DPS will be making standards (and therefore the law - outside of the legislature) as they go.

I don't believe the language is vague as much as it still grants plenty of wiggle room for sheriffs to put up hoops for people to jump through. Also, there is quite the legal history for executive powers in creating law. It even has a name, administrative law. Administrative law can only exist within the bounds permitted by legislation. If the DPS or a sheriff steps outside of the legislative bounds in creating the inevitable administrative law then they open themselves to judicial challenge and can potentially create a greater effort behind constitutional carry.

I don't like the NRA being granted what is essentially law making authority but if they are writing the law they are certainly going to make it to their benefit.

For all the talk of "statewide training standards" that Iowa Carry always talks about, this bill incorporates nothing of the sort. It is full of ambiguous language that will no doubt evolve into years of court debate, etc, as to what this all means.

I know that people like Maxie are incapable of understanding what "vague language" means and how this is very poorly written law . . . but I know that you understand it . . this bill sucks . . .

Yes, it is poorly written. I would not agree that it sucks. It did give us shall issue. It keeps the sheriffs from collecting fingerprints. Open carry is now legislatively protected. Non-residents now have a means to travel while armed in the state (since DPS interpreted "may" as "shall not").

I still feel this stepping stone to constitutional carry has set us back by potentially a decade but I am hopeful that I am wrong. Whether or not this will result in years of court battles depends on two things, how the law is interpreted, and getting signed into law in the first place.

I told myself I would not comment on this bill any more until we got a thumbs up or down from the governor. Perhaps I can refrain from further comment until that time.

 

[Straight_Shooter]

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Max G wrote:

Of course for renewals, which 35,000 Iowans will be applying for in 2011, there's a shooting option vs training.

Then by 2016, it may be that the training requirment for renewals is gone.





SF 2379:

However, for renewal of
a permit the training program requirements in section 724.9
[/u]may be waived for renewal permits, subsection 1, shall apply
or the renewal applicant may choose to qualify on a firing
range under the supervision of an instructor certified by the
national rifle association or the department of public safety
or another state's department of public safety, state police
department, or similar certifying body. Such training or
qualification must occur within the twelve=month period prior
to the expiration of the applicant's current permit.

Ok . . . I just realized that the strikeout of the words "may be waived for renewal permits" that is in the bill won't copy through for some reason.

Here is the enrolled version, which is the version that goes to the gov for signature, . . . the "waiver" section is struck out. . retraining, or requalifying, or whatever you want to call it, is now required every 5 years with this new bill (or law if Culver signs it) . . this is one of the many things the NRA compromised away to get the limited "shall issue:"

http://coolice.legis.state.ia.us/Legislation/83rdGA/enrolled/SF2379.html

 

[Straight_Shooter]

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IA_farmboy wrote:

We don't WAIT for four years, we WORK for four years.

We SHOULD have been able to get a good bill in this last year, and not an ambiguous POC, even at a "shall issue" level, but as you point out, this is "the NRA's bill," not the bill of the people who have to live under it. If the NRA and Iowa Carry had been willing to allow the people of Iowa a voice in this, then we could have had a better bill NOW.Many people tried to get the NRA to listen to suggestions about the bill, and they just turned a deaf ear.

I don't believe the language is vague as much as it still grants plenty of wiggle room for sheriffs to put up hoops for people to jump through.

Ok . . fair enough . . . if you understand it then will youplease explain to me exactly what the options for "retraining" are . . . you know . . .1) . . . 2) . . . 3) . . . and please include the language about the "shooting competition" . . . I want to understand exactly how that fits in.

If the DPS or a sheriff steps outside of the legislative bounds in creating the inevitable administrative law then they open themselves to judicial challenge . . .

Great . . the NRA "gave" us a bill to make sure that we have to spend thousands of dollars in courtcosts andtake yearsto determine exactly what the law says. I'm really looking forward to that part! . . .

I don't like the NRA being granted what is essentially law making authority but if they are writing the law they are certainly going to make it to their benefit.

Yup! . . . can't argue with that . . . the NRA has their hands outforthe gubermint dole at the taxpayer expensejust like everyone else these days . . . very respectable . . .

Open carry is now legislatively protected.

What? Please let me know how you come by this . . . I don't see where this has changed at all . . . if you open carry, assuming you have a permit, which is still required, the sherrif can pull your permit for "probable cause that the person has used a weapon in such a manner as would endanger the person's self or others." If you don't think that the anti-gun sheriffs will interpret this exactly this way, I have some swamp land I would like to interest you in buying. The "probable cause" language in this bill is a VERY low standard of evidence (the lowest in a court of law) . . . this standard has NEVER been applied to CCW in this state, but it will be . . .

I still feel this stepping stone to constitutional carry has set us back by potentially a decade but I am hopeful that I am wrong.

Actually, I am quite hopeful that the opposite is true . . now that Iowa Carry and the NRA have what THEY want, there is some possibliity that they will at least stay out of the way, or at least hinder less,IGO's efforts to aggressively pursue second amendment recognition. There is little doubt in my mind now with the voteso close on the IGO bill that we could have had it this year, all the claims to the contrary by NRA/IC notwithstanding. Of course, I am not so naive as to not recognize that there are many NRA and Iowa Carry members that do not support the second amendment, but at least maybe we won't be going head-to-head in the carry arena for the next couple of years. . . . I did talk to the legislators from Alaska (now retired) that carried their "no permit" bill across the line, and they told me that the NRA did work against them for years, so we shouldn't be so naive as to think they won't here. In general, the NRA supports "reasonable gun-control," just like the Brady's . .

 

[IA_farmboy]

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Ok . . fair enough . . . if you understand it then will you please explain to me exactly what the options for "retraining" are . . . you know . . . 1) . . . 2) . . . 3) . . . and please include the language about the "shooting competition" . . . I want to understand exactly how that fits in.

Whether you call the training and re-training requirements vague or not the wide latitude for training requirements is a feature, not a bug. Because the options are so wide it should make it simpler for people to obtain the training. Much better than states like Utah or Minnesota that requires state certified trainers for their permits to carry weapons.

Why does a shooting competition qualify? I don't know. I was told that part had been removed and that may have been the intention but someone goofed. The other explanation is that an NRA shooting competition is no different than any other range time monitored by the NRA so it qualifies for the renewal training.

Great . . the NRA "gave" us a bill to make sure that we have to spend thousands of dollars in court costs and take years to determine exactly what the law says. I'm really looking forward to that part! . . .

What? Please let me know how you come by this . . . I don't see where this has changed at all . . . if you open carry, assuming you have a permit, which is still required, the sherrif can pull your permit for "probable cause that the person has used a weapon in such a manner as would endanger the person's self or others." If you don't think that the anti-gun sheriffs will interpret this exactly this way, I have some swamp land I would like to interest you in buying. The "probable cause" language in this bill is a VERY low standard of evidence (the lowest in a court of law) . . . this standard has NEVER been applied to CCW in this state, but it will be . . .

You may feel that the bill has opened us up for years of court challenge but I do not. I'm quite certain that some sheriff here and there might make things difficult but they will have to answer to the courts and to the voters. Until we actually see these court cases I will believe this transition to "shall issue" will be a smooth one.

Whether or not your fears come to be the path remains the same, get "constitutional carry" in Iowa.

 

[Topgear]

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Straight_Shooter wrote

IFB -

There are some efforts taking place right now to see if this training can be offered free or at very low cost . . . however, I don't think the statement about waiting four years is quite correct . . . anyone who seeks a renewal after the first of the year, under this law, would be subject to the requirements to retrain.

No need to wait for anyone to provide you training to get qualified for the proposed new carry law, it's already been scheduled! For the low cost of $10.00, (to cover the cost of the training materials), you can get the certificate that will satisfy the training requirement for either a new or renewal permit. All you have to do is attend the Iowa Carry General Membership meeting on June 19th and sign up for the class.

More details on the meeting:

2010 GENERAL MEETING


Saturday June 19 8am – 9pm


Brownells Big Springs Shooting Complex
4945 Highway 146 Searsboro, IA 50242


• 10 FREE “mini” training stations - Hundreds of $$$’s Instruction FREE


• New Law Permit Course & Test - Qualify for your permit under the new law


• Class 3 NFA Gun Rentals - Receive instruction & shoot a fully auto gun


• Guest Speakers - Hear from NRA Freedom Award winner Dennis Black


• Learn About Iowa Carry - Join us & socialize with our Members & Staff


• SPECIAL GUN & PRIZE RAFFLE


Plan on Bringing:
• Chairs • Hearing & Eye Protection • Drinks
• Potluck - Bring something to share if you can!


PLEASE RSVP to:
1-888-392-8180 / Iowa Carry on Facebook
or our online forums survey
(Please RSVP to only one of these places)


PUBLIC / GUESTS WELCOME


Schedule for the Day
8am -Gates Open
9am - Sign in & announcements
9am - Noon - Free Training Booths
NFA Gun Rentals
PTC Class
IDPA Course
Gun Demos
Socializing
12 - 2pm - Potluck Lunch
Introductions
Guest Speaker
2-4pm - PTC Class
Addl. Training Booth Inst.
Personal Instruction
Cont. NFA Rentals
4-5pm -Break / Board Meeting
5-7pm -Open Range / Fun Shoot
7pm -Cease Fire & Cleanup begins
Social Hours begin
9pm -Closed Range /Final Cleanup
After Hours Party / Social

All safety rules will apply and be strictly enforced.
All Shooting activities will be supervised by Range Safety Officers.
Kids are welcome but must be accompanied by an adult at all times.
NO Adult beverages until after the final cease fire at 7pm.
Concealed Carry allowed but enforced
Iowa Carry reserves the right to ask anyone to leave at anytime


go to: http://www.IowaCarry.org for more info.

Tom Clark
VP County Operations, Iowa Carry

 

[Straight_Shooter]

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TomC wrote:

Straight_Shooter wrote

IFB -

There are some efforts taking place right now to see if this training can be offered free or at very low cost . . . however, I don't think the statement about waiting four years is quite correct . . . anyone who seeks a renewal after the first of the year, under this law, would be subject to the requirements to retrain.

No need to wait for anyone to provide you training to get qualified for the proposed new carry law, it's already been scheduled! For the low cost of $10.00, (to cover the cost of the training materials), you can get the certificate that will satisfy the training requirement for either a new or renewal permit. All you have to do is attend the Iowa Carry General Membership meeting on June 19th and sign up for the class.

Tom -

Thanks, but "no thanks" . . . I have no interest in puttingANY money into Iowa Carry's coffers after their:

* Failure to work to stop the un-Constitutional confiscation bill

* Refusal to support Vermont carry in Iowa when we came so close to passing it . . . justsixvotes away in theSenate and five in thehouse

* Helping to stick us with a (not yet) law that requires training to exercise a Constitutional "right"

* Attacking pro-gun legislator Kent Sorenson by telling him that they (the NRA) would support "uber liberal" Stacy Apel in the Senate race against Kent

* Help they have given the anti-gun Democrats thisyearto get re-elected.

Not the kind of folks I care to share anything with.

But . . . thanks for the offer anyway.

SS

 

[Topgear]

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Straight_Shooter wrote:

TomC wrote:

Straight_Shooter wrote

IFB -

There are some efforts taking place right now to see if this training can be offered free or at very low cost . . . however, I don't think the statement about waiting four years is quite correct . . . anyone who seeks a renewal after the first of the year, under this law, would be subject to the requirements to retrain.

No need to wait for anyone to provide you training to get qualified for the proposed new carry law, it's already been scheduled! For the low cost of $10.00, (to cover the cost of the training materials), you can get the certificate that will satisfy the training requirement for either a new or renewal permit. All you have to do is attend the Iowa Carry General Membership meeting on June 19th and sign up for the class.

Tom -

Thanks, but "no thanks" . . . I have no interest in puttingANY money into Iowa Carry's coffers

Well sir, that is of course your option. I can assure you however that the cost of providing a full day of training far exceeds the $10.00 fee for the carry class. As I said, that covers ONLY the cost of the training materials.

I'm sorry you feel the way you do, but the offer is open to anyone else that would like to take advantage of it. It WILL be an informative and enjoyable day for everyone who shows up. I look forward to meeting many of you at the meeting!

TomC

 

[SNIPERTARGET]

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I might go, 10 bucks. so now its free?

somebody get on the ball........

 

[Straight_Shooter]

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TomC wrote:

I can assure you however that the cost of providing a full day of training far exceeds the $10.00 fee for the carry class. As I said, that covers ONLY the cost of the training materials.

TomC

Clearly true . . . and one of the very good reasons that Iowa Carry should have opposed this nonsense . .

As I said above, to support a law wherepeople are relieved of their hard earneddollars to be "permitted" to exercise their "constitutional rights" is un-conscionable . . .

Iowa Carrymembers should be ashamed and outraged at thismiscarriage of justice . . . but they have no shame . . . instead they line up like vultures for the feast!

SS

 

[amaixner]

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Straight_Shooter wrote:

TomC wrote:

I can assure you however that the cost of providing a full day of training far exceeds the $10.00 fee for the carry class. As I said, that covers ONLY the cost of the training materials.

TomC

Clearly true . . . and one of the very good reasons that Iowa Carry should have opposed this nonsense . .

As I said above, to support a law wherepeople are relieved of their hard earneddollars to be "permitted" to exercise their "constitutional rights" is un-conscionable . . .

Iowa Carrymembers should be ashamed and outraged at thismiscarriage of justice . . . but they have no shame . . . instead they line up like vultures for the feast!

SS

Instead of viscous rhetoric against those with similar (but not close enough for your liking) beliefs, how about a well formed and polite argument? Here's a good example of pro-gradualism and anti-gradualism essays from the Cato Institute. People respond much better to respect than they do to insults.

http://www.cato.org/pubs/unbound/tgp.pdf (starts on page 3)