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Roanoke Intruder Shot and Killed Overnight

Nelson_Muntz

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Messages
697
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You break into a home in VA. after dark and there is the presumption that you mean to cause bodily harm - hence lethal force will likely be found to be justified.

the law is an ass for providing a distinction between day or night in regards to a break in.
it hypocritically discriminates by demonstrating a lack of 'tolerance for diversity', and possibly
violates the spirit of the ADA. a visually impaired person would likely presume an intent of
bodily harm irregardless if they were eating breakfast or a midnight snack. ;->~
 

Grapeshot

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Well, Mr. Moderator-Who-Thinks-He's-Above-The-Rules, I've got a newsflash for you. I personally have no information about the presumption of bodily harm after dark angle. So, I would appreciate an actual cite for my own education.

And, you're way off base with the condition being well-known in VA. I didn't even know about castle doctrine at all before I got connected up with gun rights. Meaning, there may be new readers who view your post and won't know.

Be that as it may, the forum rules don't say to cite "unless the condition is well known".

And, your website link sucks. That's not a cite. That's a "find your own cite."

The fact of the matter is, you can't cite.

Thanks a lot for the useless, off-base, conclusion-jumping attack, ***hole.
I find that when someone wishes to dig a hole for themselves with personal attacks and smart aleck remarks it can be better to let them rant and watch the hole get deeper.....up to a point. You just used your free pass. Further such will be dealt with differently - you know the drill.

Specifically what I said was, "You break into a home in VA. after dark and there is the presumption that you mean to cause bodily harm - hence lethal force will likely be found to be justified." The principal "presumption" is mine (also User's) though I did direct others to where they might research it further if they like. Insofar as "likely found to be justified" that obviously depends on the homeowner being w/o fault. I will continue with that belief.

For a person who has a decent ability to research, you IMO mitigate your value by behavior such as this. You have made repeated public attacks upon me on OCDO, knowing full well that there is proper way to express any dissatisfaction to that regard. You have expressly been so advised before. Lest you find some pleasure in your attacks, be aware that it does not cause me any concern whatsoever - it simply goes with the territory and falls on the shoulders of those unable to communicate properly..
 

FBrinson

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Can anybody cite case(s) where the judiciary articulated a common-law principle whereby if your home is intruded after dark, the law presumes a threat of bodily harm justifying lethal force without further acts by the intruder?

I tried using my Google-fu skills with no success. I am curious about this, too. This is pretty important as where I am moving (hopefully soon) there have been incidents of poaching on the property and encroachment on the home. If a strange fellow were to appear inside the house one night I don't want to be second guessing or have my actions/ reactions hindered by doubt. I guess some might say if you feel the need to defend yourself, then do it, but actual code/cites would be helpful.
 

davidmcbeth

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I tried using my Google-fu skills with no success. I am curious about this, too. This is pretty important as where I am moving (hopefully soon) there have been incidents of poaching on the property and encroachment on the home. If a strange fellow were to appear inside the house one night I don't want to be second guessing or have my actions/ reactions hindered by doubt. I guess some might say if you feel the need to defend yourself, then do it, but actual code/cites would be helpful.

Com. v. Alexander, 531 SE 2d 567 - Va: Supreme Court 2000

Here's one ... of course different states have different law

The law is clearly stated by a learned judge in State v. Morgan, [25 N.C. 186] 3 Ired. 186, 38 Am. Dec. 714, as follows: "When it is said that a man may rightfully use as much force as is necessary for the protection of his person and property, it should be recollected that this rule is subject to this most important modification, that he shall not, except in extreme cases, endanger human life or do great bodily harm. It is not every right of person, and still less of property, that can lawfully be asserted, or every wrong that may rightfully be redressed by extreme remedies. There is a recklessness — a wanton disregard of humanity and social duty in taking or endeavoring to take, the life of a fellow-being, in order to save one's self from a comparatively slight wrong, which is essentially wicked, and the law abhors. You may not kill, because you cannot otherwise effect your object, although the object sought to be effected is right. You can only kill to save life or limb, or prevent a great crime, or to accomplish a necessary public duty." See, also, 1 Bishop on New C. L., secs. 839, 841, 850.
 
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skidmark

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Com. v. Alexander, 531 SE 2d 567 - Va: Supreme Court 2000

In this appeal, we decide whether a deadly weapon may be brandished in defense of personal property.

Jon Douglas Alexander was charged with attempted murder in Rockbridge County.   At a preliminary hearing on that charge, the general district court reduced the charge to that of brandishing a firearm in violation of Code § 18.2-282 and convicted defendant Alexander of that charge.1

So, if nothing else, we are off point right out of the starting gate. But let's play just a bit longer.

The defendant appealed his conviction to the circuit court.   In a jury trial, the defendant tendered, but the court refused to grant, instructions advising the jury that if it found the defendant had brandished the firearm because he reasonably felt that it was necessary to protect his personal property from loss, the jury could find him not guilty.   The jury found the defendant guilty of the crime charged and the circuit court entered judgment on the verdict.

Upon the defendant's appeal, the Court of Appeals of Virginia held that the trial court had erred in refusing the tendered instructions, and it reversed and remanded the case.

So we kinda-sorta get close to the questioon of it being OK to shoot in defense of property. Let's see where that went.

Michael T. Eustler, an agent of the lienholder of the defendant's vehicle, sought to repossess the vehicle.   When Eustler arrived at the defendant's home, the defendant agreed to its repossession provided he could remove certain papers and tools valuable to him and having nothing to do with the vehicle being repossessed.   Although Eustler agreed to permit the defendant to retrieve the items, Eustler “jacked up” the vehicle as the defendant was partially in the front seat.   Eustler approached the defendant in a belligerent manner, and demanded the keys to the vehicle.

Feeling threatened, the defendant entered his house and emerged with the keys as well as an unloaded rifle which he placed in a flower bed that was close to the vehicle.   When Eustler again approached in a belligerent manner, the defendant retrieved the rifle and held it at his side.   The defendant felt compelled to raise the rifle to his shoulder when he thought that Eustler was going to assault him.   However, the defendant did not point the gun at Eustler until Eustler kept coming at him, at which time, Eustler “finally backed off.”

Oh, dear sweet and fluffy baby zenu - he felt threatened. Because someone approached him in a belligerant manner. Belligerance, remember, is an offering of violence. But what was the specific violence being offered? The defendant then thought the victim was going to assault him. We can overlook that the VASC meant the defendant thought the victim was going to batter him and just press on to asking "assualt" with what?

But the court goes on to discuss the notion of protecting person and property without informing us as to the means of the "assualt" the defendant feared.

Although the trial court instructed the jury to find the defendant not guilty if it found that he brandished the rifle in reasonable defense of his person, the court refused to include a similar provision in the instructions if the jury believed that the defendant brandished the rifle in reasonable defense of his property.   The Court of Appeals agreed with the defendant's contention that he was entitled to the refused jury instruction.

 We need not resolve the defendant's claim that Eustler's actions were “unwarranted and illegal ․ in attempting, by other than peaceful means, to unlawfully take [defendant's] personal property.”   Even if Eustler's actions were unwarranted or illegal, the defendant, as an owner of personal property, did not have the right to assert or defend his possessory rights thereto by the use of deadly force.   In Montgomery v. Commonwealth, 98 Va. 840, 842-43, 36 S.E. 371, 372 (1900), we said:

The law is clearly stated by a learned judge in State v. Morgan, [25 N.C. 186] 3 Ired. 186, 38 Am. Dec. 714, as follows:  “When it is said that a man may rightfully use as much force as is necessary for the protection of his person and property, it should be recollected that this rule is subject to this most important modification, that he shall not, except in extreme cases, endanger human life or do great bodily harm.   It is not every right of person, and still less of property, that can lawfully be asserted, or every wrong that may rightfully be redressed by extreme remedies.   There is a recklessness-a wanton disregard of humanity and social duty in taking or endeavoring to take, the life of a fellow-being, in order to save one's self from a comparatively slight wrong, which is essentially wicked, and the law abhors.   You may not kill, because you cannot otherwise effect your object, although the object sought to be effected is right.   You can only kill to save life or limb, or prevent a great crime, or to accomplish a necessary public duty.”   See, also, 1 Bishop on New C. L., secs. 839, 841, 850.

I'm now going to skip over a lot of meaty discussion to go directly to David Macbeth's claim of a right to use deadly force in defense against trespass.

Moreover, the owner of land has no right to assault a mere trespasser with a deadly weapon.  Montgomery, 98 Va. at 844, 36 S.E. at 373.   Indeed, in Montgomery, it was the landowner's brandishing of a sharpened corn-cutter that provoked the defendant's physical assertion of his right of self-defense.  98 Va. at 841-43, 36 S.E. at 372-73.

Now we come to the piece de resistance - David Macbeth cited this case supposedly in defense of the position he has been advocating. What, pray tell, was the actual decision of the Virginia Supreme Court?

For these reasons, we agree with the trial court that a deadly weapon may not be brandished solely in defense of personal property.

If I am not mistaken, that's exactly opposite of what he has been advocating. I'm going to check with my psychotherapist friends to see what precise medical terms they would use to describe someone who does that, just to see how close their terms come to crazy.

stay safe.
 

user

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Defense of habitation and justifiable self-defense overlap in the "castle doctrine" which states that one
may, without retreating, use force, to include deadly force if necessary, to keep aggressors out of his own
house. This part of the castle doctrine is one aspect of defense of habitation. . . . [T]he justification exists
in the curtilage as well as the castle. Roger D. Groot, Criminal Offenses and Defenses in Virginia 114 (3rd ed.
1994). The defense of habitation and the castle doctrine have not been raised in this case. Alexander v.
Commonwealth, 28 Va. App. 771, 780, 508 S.E.2d 912, ___ (1999).

This is essentially correct. The wrinkles come from issues of where the intruder happens to be at the time, the character of the intrusion, the nature of the property interest being protected, and the relationship between the parties.

First thing, you cannot protect "mere property" by means of deadly force, not ever. You can protect the home you're in, whatever that happens to be at the time, and regardless of who owns it. The area protected includes the "curtilage", the area around the home that is so closely associated with the home that it's just like being inside, in terms of the likely use people will put it to. Personal property can never be protected by deadly force, nor can real property beyond the curtilage.

The real issue is the likely harm to human occupants of the property protected, not the invasion of the property itself. So if a burglar is stealing a TV set from the homeowner's living room at 2:00 a.m., the threat is that he's got felonious intent and may be presumed to be willing to kill or maim the occupants. Same with "home invasions" - it is not necessary that the intruder make any specific threat to anyone, nor that he be engaged in burglary - if he's not supposed to be there and is there under circumstances that allow the homeowner to conclude that he's up to no good, then deadly force may be used as reasonably necessary, because there's a presumption that he intends harm to the occupants.

There is a distinction, as the Hon. Mr. Nap observes, between intruders and trespassers. If the person is intruding into the middle of your cornfield, he's merely a trespasser. Similarly, if you have reason to know he's not motivated by evil intent, he's merely a trespasser. My favorite example: if the Alzheimer's patient from across the street gets confused about where he lives and comes through your unlocked door at 2:00 o'clock in the afternoon, he is a trespasser, but not an intruder. You may use such force as is reasonably necessary to expel a trespasser, and may escalate if he resists, but you have a duty not to "wantonly or wilfully injure" him. If he turns it into a self-defense situation, of course, that's a different ball-game.

A related defense is "stopping a serious felony in progress", which gives you the legal power to stop a person engaged in a "serious felony", for the same reason: the implicit threat to human life and limb. The "serious felonies" are murder, rape, robbery, arson, and burglary. Lots of folks would add abduction, but the courts have never ruled on that one. The article originally cited by OP used the term, "robbery", but robbery is the taking of personal property from the person of another by means of threats, force, or intimidation. Distinguished from burglary, which is the breaking and entering into a dwelling of another in the night-time with the intention to commit a felony. Virginia law has abolished the "night-time" distinction by statute. So the guy who's stealing the TV (worth over two hundred dollars, which makes the theft "grand larceny") at two o'clock a.m., can be shot both because he's a burglar, and also in defense of habitation. And if he pulls a weapon out when discovered, then you can add justifiable self-defense to the list. But defense of habitation and stopping a serious felony are about keeping people safe in a general way because of the inherently dangerous nature of the criminal enterprise, while self-defense / defense of innocent others requires a specific and immediate threat.

By the way, I've noticed that other lawyers have begun to copy stuff I've posted on OCDO and putting it on their own websites. Watch out for cheap imitations, lawyers who specialize in "wecitd" posing as personal defense attorneys ("whatever comes in the door"). I'd like to know about it, though, if anyone knows any really good attorneys in Virginia or West Virginia who actually do practice in the same area I do, since I can't be everywhere, and sometimes it's not cost-effective to have me travel from Fauquier to, say, Wise or Dickenson.
 
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1245A Defender

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Well,,,

User and Skidmark, in the above posts, say a lot, and Ive got to agree with most of each, but
Its just too complicated!

I have always thought of protecting property this way, tell me i am wrong.

I see a guy running up my drive way with my TV set,,,
I grab a gun/club/wiffle bat and I chase him down,
When I catch up, I knock him over!
I "brandish" my gun/club/wiffle bat and tell him to stay put until the cops come to take him away!
If he tries to get up under those circumstances, I will consider his actions an attack,
requiring me to use necessary force, including possible deadly force in my self defense!

So the cops come and take my report, and him away, or the take pictures of the body...

Thoughts?
 

davidmcbeth

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I'm now going to skip over a lot of meaty discussion to go directly to David Macbeth's claim of a right to use deadly force in defense against trespass.


.

er, no, this case was not cited to support my desire for new laws (?? how could that be ??).

Of course, in states that allow you to shoot people on their land, no case law would exist ~ because no one would be arrested.
 
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davidmcbeth

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User and Skidmark, in the above posts, say a lot, and Ive got to agree with most of each, but
Its just too complicated!

I have always thought of protecting property this way, tell me i am wrong.

I see a guy running up my drive way with my TV set,,,
I grab a gun/club/wiffle bat and I chase him down,
When I catch up, I knock him over!
I "brandish" my gun/club/wiffle bat and tell him to stay put until the cops come to take him away!
If he tries to get up under those circumstances, I will consider his actions an attack,
requiring me to use necessary force, including possible deadly force in my self defense!

So the cops come and take my report, and him away, or the take pictures of the body...

Thoughts?

Seems like in VA you would be charged with murder. I guess they expect folks to just be gentleman and say "Jevees, we'll have to get a new one, I seemed to have misplaced my old old one"
 

Repeater

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Texas Penal code Sec. 9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY.

Texas is well known(?) for having a shoot-to-kill statute for defense of property, and that includes shooting someone in the back as the thief is escaping with your lawfully possessed property, provided the crime occurs during the night.

This statute remains controversial; examples continue to filter through the news media from time to time.
 

half_life1052

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--snip--
I would have zero issues shooting an intruder in my house ~ I would sleep well and sound.
--snip--
Killing is really not that serious~its defensive ... murder, on the other hand, is quite serious. They are different. You should learn the difference. Especially if you are going to carry a gun around. If you think that you cannot kill then why carry?
--snip--

These are the words of someone that has never made the choice or the viewpoint of a sociopathic personality. Totally justified,100% right, these things don't help you sleep at night. "Killing is really not that serious" --Here is where I draw the sociopathic tendencies comment from. Killing is never trivial.
 

Grapeshot

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--snip--

The real issue is the likely harm to human occupants of the property protected, not the invasion of the property itself. So if a burglar is stealing a TV set from the homeowner's living room at 2:00 a.m., the threat is that he's got felonious intent and may be presumed to be willing to kill or maim the occupants. Same with "home invasions" - it is not necessary that the intruder make any specific threat to anyone, nor that he be engaged in burglary - if he's not supposed to be there and is there under circumstances that allow the homeowner to conclude that he's up to no good, then deadly force may be used as reasonably necessary, because there's a presumption that he intends harm to the occupants.

There is a distinction, as the Hon. Mr. Nap observes, between intruders and trespassers. If the person is intruding into the middle of your cornfield, he's merely a trespasser. Similarly, if you have reason to know he's not motivated by evil intent, he's merely a trespasser. My favorite example: if the Alzheimer's patient from across the street gets confused about where he lives and comes through your unlocked door at 2:00 o'clock in the afternoon, he is a trespasser, but not an intruder. You may use such force as is reasonably necessary to expel a trespasser, and may escalate if he resists, but you have a duty not to "wantonly or wilfully injure" him. If he turns it into a self-defense situation, of course, that's a different ball-game.

A related defense is "stopping a serious felony in progress", which gives you the legal power to stop a person engaged in a "serious felony", for the same reason: the implicit threat to human life and limb. The "serious felonies" are murder, rape, robbery, arson, and burglary. Lots of folks would add abduction, but the courts have never ruled on that one. The article originally cited by OP used the term, "robbery", but robbery is the taking of personal property from the person of another by means of threats, force, or intimidation. Distinguished from burglary, which is the breaking and entering into a dwelling of anotherin the night-time with the intention to commit a felony. Virginia law has abolished the "night-time" distinction by statute. So the guy who's stealing the TV (worth over two hundred dollars, which makes the theft "grand larceny") at two o'clock a.m., can be shot both because he's a burglar, and also in defense of habitation. And if he pulls a weapon out when discovered, then you can add justifiable self-defense to the list. But defense of habitation and stopping a serious felony are about keeping people safe in a general way because of the inherently dangerous nature of the criminal enterprise, while self-defense / defense of innocent others requires a specific and immediate threat.

--snip--

Very thorough and comprehensive response - thank you.

Did not realize that the after dark/nighttime enhancement had been modified by the GA. It appears that the "nighttime" distinction has a limited application now; whereas "either in the day or nighttime" applies to lesser misdemeanors and other particular crimes.

Also see that under certain circumstances deadly force may be used (reasonably necessary), based on the presumption that he intends harm to the occupants. That reenforces by understanding.

Va. Code 18.2-90 -
If any person in the nighttime enters without breaking or in the daytime breaks and enters or enters and conceals himself in a dwelling house with intent to commit murder, rape, robbery or arson, he shall be deemed guilty of statutory burglary, which offense shall be a Class 3 felony. However, if such person was armed with a deadly weapon at the time of such entry, he shall be guilty of a Class 2 felony.

Va. Code 18.2-92 - If any person breaks and enters a dwelling house while the dwelling is occupied, either in the day or nighttime, with the intent to commit any misdemeanor except assault and battery or trespass, he shall be guilty of a Class 6 felony (punishable by up to 5 years in prison and $2,500 fine). However, if the person was armed with a deadly weapon at the time of such entry, he shall be guilty of a Class 2 felony.

With something likely less than 3 minutes from start to finish, we hope to get it right the first time.......and as a last resort." I will be happy to answer any of your questions officer when my attorney is present and upon his advice - I have nothing more to say at this time."
 

Grapeshot

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--snipped--

Of course, in states that allow you to shoot people on their land, no case law would exist ~ because no one would be arrested.
David you are decidely "off-topic" - this is about Virginia laws and circumstances, not other states.

Virginia case law/common law goes back to 1607 - that is more firmly entrenched than any such absurd notion that "no one would be arrested."

Please do yourself a favor and give it a rest.
 

peter nap

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These are the words of someone that has never made the choice or the viewpoint of a sociopathic personality. Totally justified,100% right, these things don't help you sleep at night. "Killing is really not that serious" --Here is where I draw the sociopathic tendencies comment from. Killing is never trivial.
+1
 

peter nap

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David you are decidely "off-topic" - this is about Virginia laws and circumstances, not other states.

Virginia case law/common law goes back to 1607 - that is more firmly entrenched than any such absurd notion that "no one would be arrested."

Please do yourself a favor and give it a rest.

+2
 

Citizen

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This is essentially correct. The wrinkles come from issues of where the intruder happens to be at the time, the character of the intrusion, the nature of the property interest being protected, and the relationship between the parties.

First thing, you cannot protect "mere property" by means of deadly force, not ever. You can protect the home you're in, whatever that happens to be at the time, and regardless of who owns it. The area protected includes the "curtilage", the area around the home that is so closely associated with the home that it's just like being inside, in terms of the likely use people will put it to. Personal property can never be protected by deadly force, nor can real property beyond the curtilage.

The real issue is the likely harm to human occupants of the property protected, not the invasion of the property itself. So if a burglar is stealing a TV set from the homeowner's living room at 2:00 a.m., the threat is that he's got felonious intent and may be presumed to be willing to kill or maim the occupants. Same with "home invasions" - it is not necessary that the intruder make any specific threat to anyone, nor that he be engaged in burglary - if he's not supposed to be there and is there under circumstances that allow the homeowner to conclude that he's up to no good, then deadly force may be used as reasonably necessary, because there's a presumption that he intends harm to the occupants.

There is a distinction, as the Hon. Mr. Nap observes, between intruders and trespassers. If the person is intruding into the middle of your cornfield, he's merely a trespasser. Similarly, if you have reason to know he's not motivated by evil intent, he's merely a trespasser. My favorite example: if the Alzheimer's patient from across the street gets confused about where he lives and comes through your unlocked door at 2:00 o'clock in the afternoon, he is a trespasser, but not an intruder. You may use such force as is reasonably necessary to expel a trespasser, and may escalate if he resists, but you have a duty not to "wantonly or wilfully injure" him. If he turns it into a self-defense situation, of course, that's a different ball-game.

A related defense is "stopping a serious felony in progress", which gives you the legal power to stop a person engaged in a "serious felony", for the same reason: the implicit threat to human life and limb. The "serious felonies" are murder, rape, robbery, arson, and burglary. Lots of folks would add abduction, but the courts have never ruled on that one. The article originally cited by OP used the term, "robbery", but robbery is the taking of personal property from the person of another by means of threats, force, or intimidation. Distinguished from burglary, which is the breaking and entering into a dwelling of another in the night-time with the intention to commit a felony. Virginia law has abolished the "night-time" distinction by statute. So the guy who's stealing the TV (worth over two hundred dollars, which makes the theft "grand larceny") at two o'clock a.m., can be shot both because he's a burglar, and also in defense of habitation. And if he pulls a weapon out when discovered, then you can add justifiable self-defense to the list. But defense of habitation and stopping a serious felony are about keeping people safe in a general way because of the inherently dangerous nature of the criminal enterprise, while self-defense / defense of innocent others requires a specific and immediate threat.

By the way, I've noticed that other lawyers have begun to copy stuff I've posted on OCDO and putting it on their own websites. Watch out for cheap imitations, lawyers who specialize in "wecitd" posing as personal defense attorneys ("whatever comes in the door"). I'd like to know about it, though, if anyone knows any really good attorneys in Virginia or West Virginia who actually do practice in the same area I do, since I can't be everywhere, and sometimes it's not cost-effective to have me travel from Fauquier to, say, Wise or Dickenson.

Thanks for the extensive write-up, User.

For myself, in the event of a burglary, if I can safely exit my home rather than shoot, I will. I don't trust the justice system enough. And, nothing in my home is worth $20K or more in legal defense costs.

So, I'm more interested in the size of the door through which government can walk its second guesses than what I am authorized to do. That is to say, how much loop-hole is there for government to second-guess the defender during a burglarly.

In the quote above, the latter emphasis seems a bit more expansive the former. The phrasing of the former seems to limit defensive force to that which is reasonably necessary, whereas the latter would seem to close the door on government second-guessing the defender at all. Is the disparity between those two emphasized comments just a matter of fast writing? If so, which is closer to the common law?

Separately, can you point us to relevant cases? I'm thinking it would be helpful if we have something to cite and/or link for new readers for the next time this subject comes up.
 

davidmcbeth

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Thanks for the extensive write-up, User.

For myself, in the event of a burglary, if I can safely exit my home rather than shoot, I will. I don't trust the justice system enough. And, nothing in my home is worth $20K or more in legal defense costs.

Sounds like you would like the law changed to more strongly support your right to defend yourself then...hmmm.
 

Citizen

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Sounds like you would like the law changed to more strongly support your right to defend yourself then...hmmm.

How did you identify my post with wanting to change the law?

I don't even know what the common law is exactly, thus my questions to User. And, right in my comment that you quoted, I made it clear it was the justice system, not the common law, that I didn't trust.

So, how exactly did you turn those distinctions into an identity?
 

davidmcbeth

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How did you identify my post with wanting to change the law?

I don't even know what the common law is exactly, thus my questions to User. And, right in my comment that you quoted, I made it clear it was the justice system, not the common law, that I didn't trust.

So, how exactly did you turn those distinctions into an identity?

Common law is basically case law. Once a statue is passed that counters common law, the common law is basically dead. So a statue could be passed that gives you more legal protection than was previously available under common law.
 

Citizen

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Fairfax Co., VA
Common law is basically case law. Once a statue is passed that counters common law, the common law is basically dead. So a statue could be passed that gives you more legal protection than was previously available under common law.

How did you manage to spout all that without answering my question?

Just exactly what was the mental process that resulted in such a complete dodge of the question I asked?
 
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