Quick Virginia private sale question

[mercutio545]

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I brought one of my handguns to sell at the VA Beach gun show today. A gentleman wanted to purchase it, and showed me a VA non-resident CHP, a validFlorida Drivers License, and a Blue (retired?) Military ID.

I didn't think I could sell it to him (I thought it was VA resident to VA resident), so I told him I'd have to check and see if it was legal first. Is this ok to do? I'm pretty sure active duty military is good to go, but wasn't sure about retired. I just want to make sure everything is legal as a beagle. Thanks.

 

[peter nap]

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I wouldn't!

 

[zoom6zoom]

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Gotta be a VA resident, otherwise it has to be transferred through an FFL in his home state. Retired military don't get the exception since he doesn't have current orders.

 

[user]

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zoom6zoom wrote:

Gotta be a  VA resident, otherwise it has to be transferred through an FFL in his home state.  Retired military don't get the exception since he doesn't have current orders.

Correct. Though a person may be a resident of more than one state for BATFE transfer purposes (not for voter registration or DMV purposes). The condition is that one has to actually be residing in the state in which he's purchasing the gun at the time of purchase.

There are normally two forms of identification required for a transfer via an FFL, and I'd suggest at least looking at both kinds for a private transfer as well. One of these must identify the person, and it doesn't matter what address is on that one, or even what state it references. The other one must show that the person is presently a resident of the state. So a Florida driver's license coupled with a gas/electric bill addressed to the same person at a residence in Fairfax, for example, would be sufficient. With a Va. issued operator's license, showing residence in Va., you don't need two - one piece may satisfy both requirements.

You can use my standard bill of sale form if you like:
http://dlhawes@virginialegaldefense.com/COArmory/PvtHandgunTransferBOS.pdf

 

[richarcm]

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When in doubt always retreat.

 

[user]

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richarcm wrote:

When in doubt always retreat. 

Wise counsel, however, the prosecution will have to present evidence that you actually knew or should have known that the purchaser was ineligible; not merely that he was in fact ineligible.

 

[TFred]

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user wrote:

richarcm wrote:

When in doubt always retreat.

Wise counsel, however, the prosecution will have to present evidence that you actually knew or should have known that the purchaser was ineligible; not merely that he was in fact ineligible.

Not doubting your point, but I believe most of us here are far more concerned with the latter than we are with the former... And that is the way it should be!

TFred

 

[MSC 45ACP]

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Hope you didn't do it. Sounds like a set-up to me. Like User said, unless he has proof that he's a VA RESIDENT, you shouldn't sell it. None of that stuff he showed you prove he was a resident. In fact, the NON-RESIDENT CHP should have been a dead give-away. If he became a VA resident, he should have had a new one showing his VA address.

Could this have been an attempted sting operation? Maybe. Friends of Bloomie? Maybe.

Better safe than sorry...

 

[Milbars]

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MSC 45ACP wrote:

Hope you didn't do it. Sounds like a set-up to me. Like User said, unless he has proof that he's a VA RESIDENT, you shouldn't sell it. None of that stuff he showed you prove he was a resident. In fact, the NON-RESIDENT CHP should have been a dead give-away. If he became a VA resident, he should have had a new one showing his VA address.

Could this have been an attempted sting operation? Maybe. Friends of Bloomie? Maybe.

Better safe than sorry...

From what I recall, it's not necessary to update the address on your CHP, correct?

 

[Fenris]

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user wrote:

richarcm wrote:

When in doubt always retreat. 

Wise counsel, however, the prosecution will have to present evidence that you actually knew or should have known that the purchaser was ineligible; not merely that he was in fact ineligible.

If the prosecutor charges then you've already lost. There's just different degrees of losing. Better to avoid situation entirely.

The better part of valor is discretion.

 

[Mike]

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user wrote:

There are normally two forms of identification required for a transfer via an FFL

Not a federal standard.

 

[Mike]

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mercutio545 wrote:

I brought one of my handguns to sell at the VA Beach gun show today. A gentleman wanted to purchase it, and showed me a VA non-resident CHP, a validFlorida Drivers License, and a Blue (retired?) Military ID.

Why did he show these ID except to entrap you?

perhaps the IDs showed a VA address? For most of my life my PA DL showed a non-PA address

 

[Tomahawk]

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Fenris wrote:

If the prosecutor charges then you've already lost. There's just different degrees of losing. Better to avoid situation entirely.

QFT

 

[mercutio545]

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I definitely didn't complete the sale. I was almost 100% sure that it wasn't ok, but I just wanted to check to verify that I was right. If the person wanted to purchase a firearm through a private sale so badly, they should have just gotten a VA Drivers License. Thanks for the replies.

 

[Wangmuf]

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Rules, rules, rules. What makes a person who lives in a state that they can legally own XXXXXXXXX firearm in unqualified to buy it in another state?

Must be a tax issue. :?

 

[nova]

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Wangmuf wrote:

Rules, rules, rules. What makes a person who lives in a state that they can legally own XXXXXXXXX firearm in unqualified to buy it in another state?

Must be a tax issue. :?

like it or not, it's the law, and we have to follow it until we can change it back to how it should be...

 

[Wangmuf]

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nova wrote:

Wangmuf wrote:

Rules, rules, rules. What makes a person who lives in a state that they can legally own XXXXXXXXX firearm in unqualified to buy it in another state?

Must be a tax issue. :?

like it or not, it's the law, and we have to follow it until we can change it back to how it should be...

I know, but there are a lot of laws that are just nonsensical. I can't have sex in any position other than missionary, what?



Edit: Not that I condone breaking the law (other than that lame sex one I mentioned in this post), but how would it ever be found out that the law preventing out of state sales was broken unless the buyer was a narc, if there's no receipt? "But our database shows that you were the original purchaser of the firearm!" "Oh, that database that I'm not supposed to be a part of? Cool. lawsuit."

 

[user]

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Wangmuf wrote:

... but how would it ever be found out that the law preventing out of state sales was broken unless the buyer was a narc, if there's no receipt? "But our database shows that you were the original purchaser of the firearm!" "Oh, that database that I'm not supposed to be a part of? Cool. lawsuit."

I suggest again the use of the form I developed. There are several reasons why I like it.

First, only the buyer and the seller have copies of it; it's not public record.

Secondly, the purchaser can use it to establish the date of purchase and value of the gun to prove he actually had it in case of loss (e.g., for an insurance claim), and to establish his innocence if the gun had been used in a crime prior to his acquisition of it. He can also show that he bought it in good faith for value from a person who swore under oath that he was the rightful owner (a bona fide purchaser for value receives good title, even if the seller lacked good title).

The seller can use it to establish that he sold it to a person who swore under oath that he was eligible to be in possession of a gun, and that the seller's not guilty of whatever crime the purchaser used the gun to commit.

http://dlhawes@virginialegaldefense.com/COArmory/PvtHandgunTransferBOS.pdf

 

[peter nap]

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Wangmuf wrote:

nova wrote:

Wangmuf wrote:

Rules, rules, rules. What makes a person who lives in a state that they can legally own XXXXXXXXX firearm in unqualified to buy it in another state?

Must be a tax issue. :?

like it or not, it's the law, and we have to follow it until we can change it back to how it should be...

I know, but there are a lot of laws that are just nonsensical. I can't have sex in any position other than missionary, what?



Edit: Not that I condone breaking the law (other than that lame sex one I mentioned in this post), but how would it ever be found out that the law preventing out of state sales was broken unless the buyer was a narc, if there's no receipt? "But our database shows that you were the original purchaser of the firearm!" "Oh, that database that I'm not supposed to be a part of? Cool. lawsuit."

I'm not a believer in private sales ID. I but a gun or o a month and I simply won't show ID. It's not required and if the seller insists, which he ha a perfect right to, he can find another buyer. If asked, I simply tell him I have no legal restrictions prohibiting my buying the gun.

That said, in your case, where the seller showed ID or even if he had just told you verbally that he was not a resident, I'd have walked away from the sale ASAP.

In other words, don't break the law but don't require things that aren't required either.

 

[user]

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I've thought about this at some length, and I've decided that the seller should go ahead with the sale. It is not unlawful to sell to a nonresident, after all. What's illegal is the transfer of possession of the firearm to a nonresident. So the thing to do is to get the money first, then ask him what FFL in his home state he wants the gun shipped to.