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Open Carry without a CPL

solus

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Let's see, initial post was in 2013 over a 1927 MI statute...
thread's last post was 2015...
huckle's post dated dec 2020, was outta context and w/o cite
while the 1927 MI statute was Amended in 2015, by Act 200, Eff. Feb. 22, 2016.

but greetings to huckle...
 

Huckle_Barry

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Let's see, initial post was in 2013 over a 1927 MI statute...
thread's last post was 2015...
huckle's post dated dec 2020, was outta context and w/o cite
while the 1927 MI statute was Amended in 2015, by Act 200, Eff. Feb. 22, 2016.

but greetings to huckle...
Thank you. I'm sorry for resurrecting this thread and sort of hijacking, I just saw this and it raised my question.
Here's context, assuming these things are true and verifiable (I have statutes printed out and can provide citation if needed)

1. Federal Law does not consider antique or antique replica blackpowder pistols to be firearms and are exempt from FFL background checks.


2. Michigan State Law does consider them to be firearms.


3. Under Michigan State Law unspecified/nonviolent/statutory felons have their rights to bear arms restored 3 years after satisfactory completion of probation/parole.


4. There is currently no recourse ($0 allocated since the 90's + no automatic relief) under Federal Law for said offense(s).


5. There is no requirement under Michigan State Law to register a blackpowder firearm.

Brought me to my question
 

color of law

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Thank you. I'm sorry for resurrecting this thread and sort of hijacking, I just saw this and it raised my question.
Here's context, assuming these things are true and verifiable (I have statutes printed out and can provide citation if needed)
1. Federal Law does not consider antique or antique replica blackpowder pistols to be firearms and are exempt from FFL background checks.
2. Michigan State Law does consider them to be firearms.
3. Under Michigan State Law unspecified/nonviolent/statutory felons have their rights to bear arms restored 3 years after satisfactory completion of probation/parole.
4. There is currently no recourse ($0 allocated since the 90's + no automatic relief) under Federal Law for said offense(s).
5. There is no requirement under Michigan State Law to register a blackpowder firearm.
Brought me to my question
Your question: " If someone lawfully purchased a blackpowder revolver and wished to open carry it would they be required to register it first?" Yes is the answer.
You are mixing federal law with state law. Doesn't work.
You always start with definitions.
28.421(1)(c) - '"Firearm" means any weapon which will, is designed to, or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by action of an explosive."'
28.421(1)(i) - '"Pistol" means a loaded or unloaded firearm that is 26 inches or less in length, or a loaded or unloaded firearm that by its construction and appearance conceals it as a firearm."'
People v. Williamson (1918), 200 Mich 342 basically says a pistol and revolver are one in the same, both firearms.

In that a blackpowder revolver and/or pistol meets the definition of firearm it would appear by state statute requires registration.
 

Huckle_Barry

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Your question: " If someone lawfully purchased a blackpowder revolver and wished to open carry it would they be required to register it first?" Yes is the answer.
You are mixing federal law with state law. Doesn't work.
You always start with definitions.
28.421(1)(c) - '"Firearm" means any weapon which will, is designed to, or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by action of an explosive."'
28.421(1)(i) - '"Pistol" means a loaded or unloaded firearm that is 26 inches or less in length, or a loaded or unloaded firearm that by its construction and appearance conceals it as a firearm."'
People v. Williamson (1918), 200 Mich 342 basically says a pistol and revolver are one in the same, both firearms.

In that a blackpowder revolver and/or pistol meets the definition of firearm it would appear by state statute requires registration.

Thank you. That's what I need to know. I was hoping for something more definitive than "it would appear" but better safe than busted.
 

Huckle_Barry

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Some states do not require registration of firearms. Therefore there is no statutes to site to.

"
Antiques and Replicas
Handguns kept solely for the purpose of display, as relics, curios, or antiques not made for modern ammunition or permanently deactivated are exempt from the registration and sale provisions.

An antique firearm is defined as:
  • A firearm not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898, including a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898.
  • A firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade."

From 2014, Solis do you have a link to the amended statute?
 

Huckle_Barry

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MCL 750.227(2)

(2) A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law and if licensed, shall not carry the pistol in a place or manner inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license.

750.231a (1)Exceptions to MCL 750.227(2); (2)"antique firearm" defined.

(1) Subsection (2) of section 227 does not apply to any of the following:
...
(c) To a person carrying an antique firearm, completely unloaded in a closed case or container designed for the storage of firearms in the trunk of a vehicle.


(2) As used in this section, "antique firearm" means either of the following:
(i) A firearm not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898, including a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica of such a firearm, whether actually manufactured before or after 1898.
(ii) A firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade."

"FIREARMS (EXCERPT)
Act 372 of 1927


28.422 License to purchase, carry, possess, or transport pistol; issuance; qualifications; applications; sale of pistol; exemptions; transfer of ownership to heir or devisee; nonresident; active duty status; forging application as felony; implementation during business hours."

There was no requirement of license to purchase, so I'm lead to conclude that also applies to carry/possess or transport while abiding by the transport exceptions listed
 

solus

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snipp...

From 2014, Solis [sic] do you have a link to the amended statute?

QUOTE="solus, post: 2248650, member: 68975"]
Let's see, initial post was in 2013 over a 1927 MI statute...
thread's last post was 2015...
huckle's post dated dec 2020, was outta context and w/o cite
while the 1927 MI statute was Amended in 2015, by Act 200, Eff. Feb. 22, 2016.

but greetings to huckle...
[/QUOTE]

as referenced in my post, the cites were at the bottom the initial post starting this thread...

Therefore, if, you go to initial posted cite for MI 28.422 where if you click on the hyperlink you will now find at the bottom of that cited statute...
quote:
; the -- Am. 2015, Act 200, Eff. Feb. 22, 2016.
Unquote

cheers
 

Huckle_Barry

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QUOTE="solus, post: 2248650, member: 68975"]
Let's see, initial post was in 2013 over a 1927 MI statute...
thread's last post was 2015...
huckle's post dated dec 2020, was outta context and w/o cite
while the 1927 MI statute was Amended in 2015, by Act 200, Eff. Feb. 22, 2016.

but greetings to huckle...

as referenced in my post, the cites were at the bottom the initial post starting this thread...

Therefore, if, you go to initial posted cite for MI 28.422 where if you click on the hyperlink you will now find at the bottom of that cited statute...
quote:
; the -- Am. 2015, Act 200, Eff. Feb. 22, 2016.
Unquote

cheers
[/QUOTE]

This http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(ux...leg.aspx?page=GetObject&objectname=mcl-28-422
is the amended version?
 

Huckle_Barry

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So it would look something like this

"28.422 License to purchase, carry, possess, or transport pistol; issuance; qualifications; applications; sale of pistol; exemptions...
...

MCL 28.422(7) This section does not apply to the purchase of pistols from wholesalers by dealers regularly engaged in the business of selling pistols at retail, or to the sale, barter, or exchange of pistols kept as relics or curios not made for modern ammunition or permanently deactivated."

That explicitly covers sales, but doesn't mention carry. Transport was cited above.
 

Huckle_Barry

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"MCL 28.422
...
(13) This section does not apply to a person who possesses a pistol if all of the following conditions apply:
(a) The person is not otherwise prohibited from possessing a pistol.
(b) The person is at a recognized target range or shooting facility.
(c) The person possesses the pistol for the purpose of target practice or instruction in the safe use of a pistol.
(d) The owner of the pistol is physically present and supervising the use of the pistol."

This covers use for target practice at a range.

What I'm seeing here
"MCL 28.422 (5) If an individual purchases or otherwise acquires a pistol, the seller shall fill out the license forms describing the pistol, together with the date of sale or acquisition, and sign his or her name in ink indicating that the pistol was sold to or otherwise acquired by the purchaser. The purchaser shall also sign his or her name in ink indicating the purchase or other acquisition of the pistol from the seller. The seller may retain a copy of the license as a record of the transaction. The purchaser shall receive 2 copies of the license. The purchaser shall return 1 copy of the license to the licensing authority within 10 days after the date the pistol is purchased or acquired."
is that licensing/registering a pistol is predicated by the purchasing license/process? Since it is exempt from that is there a way to register, or is open carry of a black powder revolver prohibited? I want to be certain to be on the right side of the Law.
 
Last edited:

color of law

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...........
I want to be certain to be on the right side of the Law. I don't feel like getting sent up the river based on a technicality, again.
(My emphasis)

Are you a felon? That is the only conclusion I can come to based on your continuation of your posts attempting to get around your state law. If that is the case, move to a more friendly state.
 

solus

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Darn Pesky forum program records edit times...
Post 31bottom right hand corner...
quote: Last edited: Today at 9:45 AM

if already "...sent up the river..." you might fall under this Federal guidelines:
ATF Quote [w/cites]:

Prohibited Persons

The Gun Control Act (GCA), codified at 18 U.S.C. § 922(g), makes it unlawful for certain categories of persons to ship, transport, receive, or possess firearms or ammunition, to include any person:
  • convicted in any court of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year;
  • who is a fugitive from justice;
  • who is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance (as defined in section 102 of the Controlled Substances Act, codified at 21 U.S.C. § 802);
  • who has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to any mental institution;
  • who is an illegal alien;
  • who has been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions;
  • who has renounced his or her United States citizenship;
  • who is subject to a court order restraining the person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner or child of the intimate partner; or
  • who has been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence.
The GCA at 18 U.S.C. § 922(n) also makes it unlawful for any person under indictment for a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year to ship, transport, or receive firearms or ammunition.

Further, the GCA at 18 U.S.C. § 922(d) makes it unlawful to sell or otherwise dispose of firearms or ammunition to any person who is prohibited from shipping, transporting, receiving, or possessing firearms or ammunition. Unquote.
[https://www.atf.gov/firearms/identify-prohibited-persons]

if your trip up the river puts you into a prohibited status, moving to another state won't help much in purchasing a firearm!

cheers mate
 

Huckle_Barry

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I have a nonviolent one from almost 22 years ago.

"National Firearms Act Definitions
Antique Firearm
26 U.S.C. § 5845(G)

For the purposes of the National Firearms Act, the term “Antique Firearms” means any firearm not intended or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898) and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade."

From atf.gov faqs page
"The Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA) prohibits felons and certain other persons from possessing or
receiving firearms and ammunition (“prohibited persons”). These categories can be found at 18
U.S.C. § 922(g) and (n) in http://atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf.
However, Federal law does not prohibit these persons from possessing or receiving an antique
firearm. The term “antique firearm” means any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock,
flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898. The
definition includes any replica of an antique firearm if it is not designed or redesigned for using
rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or uses rimfire or conventional centerfire
ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States, and which is not readily available
in ordinary channels of commercial trade."

Which is why I'm specifically asking about black powder antique replicas.
I'm not trying to get around anything, if anyone is trying to twist the laws it's you.

I see the trolls are strong with this site.
 

Huckle_Barry

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(My emphasis)

Are you a felon? That is the only conclusion I can come to based on your continuation of your posts attempting to get around your state law. If that is the case, move to a more friendly state.
Sir! You have insulted my honour! Wet noodles at dawn!!

I have lived in other states but for the most part of my 46 years have been in Michigan.
I've thought about moving again but with a wife a baby, a small child, and a teen it's not an easy task. Not to mention the house and property, jobs all that.
 

solus

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Surely huckle, you noticed the first prohibited criterion i listed listed above stated in part...
  • convicted in any court of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year;
doesn't make any type of mention regarding violent/non-violent crime nor how long ago said conviction occurred!

remember, it was you who picked an outdated 10 yo thread on a semi-related subject theme to interject your perception of an issue w/o providing the whole breadth of your situation ~ as for calling other members elementary play ground names just to bolster your perception of your standing out here doesn't work per se!
 

solus

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Snipp...
I see the trolls are strong with this site.

Sir! You have insulted my honour!

snippp....

you have the audacity call out childish elementary play ground taunts, then feint a blow to your honour, even though YOU ADMITTED on this site you were in fact tried & convicted of a crime by a court of record!

enjoy your holiday...
 

color of law

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Sir! You have insulted my honour! Wet noodles at dawn!!

I have lived in other states but for the most part of my 46 years have been in Michigan.
I've thought about moving again but with a wife a baby, a small child, and a teen it's not an easy task. Not to mention the house and property, jobs all that.
What little honor you had vanished when you deleted your statement. You jumped to a conclusion just because you were asked a question. You came here with a question. I answered your question. You didn't like the answer. And not being forthcoming, like a honest person, you tried to figure out how to get around your dilemma while being hush hush. Out of frustration you spill the beans. Out of embarrassment, or for what ever reason, you tried to cover your faux pas. You couldn't handle the truth. So, you lash out and accuse me of attacking your honor. Your actions destroyed your honor, not I.

I'm owed an apology, but I'm sure that will be a cold day in hell.

And you have a nice Christmas.
 

KBCraig

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I have a nonviolent one from almost 22 years ago.

"National Firearms Act Definitions
Antique Firearm
26 U.S.C. § 5845(G)

For the purposes of the National Firearms Act, the term “Antique Firearms” means any firearm not intended or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898) and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade."

From atf.gov faqs page
"The Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA) prohibits felons and certain other persons from possessing or
receiving firearms and ammunition (“prohibited persons”). These categories can be found at 18
U.S.C. § 922(g) and (n) in http://atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf.
However, Federal law does not prohibit these persons from possessing or receiving an antique
firearm. The term “antique firearm” means any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock,
flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898. The
definition includes any replica of an antique firearm if it is not designed or redesigned for using
rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or uses rimfire or conventional centerfire
ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States, and which is not readily available
in ordinary channels of commercial trade."

Which is why I'm specifically asking about black powder antique replicas.
I'm not trying to get around anything, if anyone is trying to twist the laws it's you.

I see the trolls are strong with this site.

I won't read anything into your question or the reasons for it.

However, you do need to understand that many "modern" firearms originally fired fixed ammunition loaded with black powder. So when you say "black powder", that's not good enough. If you mean muzzle loading, including cap-and-ball revolvers, then those are non-firearms under federal law and you would be clear as far as the feds go.

I don't know Michigan law, but many states ban felons from carrying "deadly weapons", which aren't limited to post-1898 firearms.

FYI, a pre-1899 firearm would be legal for a felon to own, even if it chambered and was safe to fire with modern smokeless cased ammunition. Just think of all those early Colt Peacemakers out there!

But--BIG "but"--the ammunition is still illegal for a prohibited person to possess, under federal law. I saw a case just like that in my previous life, where a felon took care to purchase an "antique" revolver. He was accused of firing it at someone, but that case couldn't be proven. What could be proven was the charge of possessing ammunition, since there were three unfired rounds in his revolver. He got 10 years per cartridge, consecutively, in federal prison.
 
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