OC/CC in Wisconsin RIP

[freedom1]

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I wrote this under the minnesota page and people asked me to add it here for the packer fans..

I have open carried daily since it became legal in Mn, and have done with out incident both in the metor and northern communities, soem people ask is I am a officer, I reply by stating no I carry for protection of my family and property. I have gotten looks from officers in wisconsin but never been a problem because as I understand Wisconsin has a open carry law, except in vehicles it has to be unloaded and on the dashboard, not on the seat someone got a class A misdemenor for having it unloaded on the seat, and I guess one person got a charge for having a loaded gun locked in the glove box. people are generally ok with it, I have had people give me adoubletake type lookwhen I am out to dinner with my wife and child but it hasnever beena conflict, even some store have signposting no guns, unless the sign is legal type size & font you have every right to carry in that store people are ok with it if you don't make a big deal about it. a couple of stores have asked me to leave or remove my gun, I just leave and do not go to those stores anymore, their loss.

 

[Shotgun]

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Thanks for passing this information along. Could you expand on your WI experience? For example, when you said you got some looks from police was it while you were carrying in a holster, or are you referring to on the dashboard? What area of Wisconsin? Near the WI/MN border or other areas? State patrol or local police?

Thanks again!

 

[apjonas]

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Wow, leave the country for a couple of months and look what happens.

1. Mr. Monkeyleg, I apologize for any offense given. It is clear that you are a dedicated and tireless worker. My problem with WCCA is a little more subtle. I don't consider you = WCCA. More on that later.

2. Somebody has hit the nail on the head. What you need is a declaratory judgement on OC. WI has such a statute and it permits you to determine your rights without putting yourself at risk.

3. For those discussing car carry, look at the thread on "quirkiness." You pretty much cannot carry in a car - open, concealed, loaded, unloaded. If you disagree please give an explanation why my argument is not sound.

 

[freedom1]

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I WAS REFERING TO THE OPEN CARRY IN PUBLIC DOWN TOWN HUDSON WI. I HAD ONLY ONE INSTANCE, I WAS AT THE DQ IN HUDSON WI. AND WAS WAITING IN LINE AND AN PAIR OF OFFICERS WERE PULLING IN, I WAS NEXT IN LINE, THEY GOT TO THE END OF THE LINE ANDJUST GLANCED AT ME FUNNY GAVE THE ONCE OVER LOOK,I DON'T KNOW IF THEY WERE UNEASY OR WHAT. MAYBE THEY JUST WANTED THEIR ICE CREAM AND WANTED THE LINE TO MOOVE FASTER, BUT I WENT ON MY WAY WHEN I PASSED THEM I JUST SMILED AND GREETED THEM AND WENT ON MY WAYAND THEY DID NOT EVEN ASK ME OR CONFRONT ME ABOUT IT.

IT KIND OF GOES WITH MY LAST STATEMENT, IF YOU LOOK LIKE YOUR UP TO TROUBLE OR NERVOUS ABOUT CARRYING, CHANCES ARE YOU SET OFF RED FLAGS TO OFFICERS AND PEDESTRIANS WHILE OUT IN PUBLIC. I DROVE MYTRUCKTHAT DAY AND THEY DID NOT COME AFTER ME OR FOLLOW ME TO THE BOARDER.

 

[Shotgun]

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apjonas wrote:

3. For those discussing car carry, look at the thread on "quirkiness." You pretty much cannot carry in a car - open, concealed, loaded, unloaded. If you disagree please give an explanation why my argument is not sound.

Obviously you can and have to be able to carry in a car, or you could never take it home from the store. The only legally safe way, however, is unloaded and in a gun case.There is a state statute: Chapter 167.31(2)(b) that covers firearms in vehicles.

"Except as provided insub (4) no person may place, possess or transport a firearm, bow or crossbow in or on a vehicle, unless the firearm is unloaded and encased or unless the bow or crossbow is unstrung or is enclosed in a carrying case."


I've told police a number of times that I have a gun in my car and they've always said that was fine. If you couldn't transport a gun in a vehicle that would put quite a crimp in deer hunting season in this state!

Now maybe unloaded and encased is not your idea of "carry" but that's what we have in Wisconsin currently. Like it or not, putting your gun on view on the dashboard and other clever ideas can still get you a ticket. I keep mine legal, unloaded and in a case and on the seat next to me and hope I have the 5 seconds warning it would take to open the case and insert a magazine and rack the slide.

 

[Shotgun]

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freedom1 wrote:

I WAS REFERING TO THE OPEN CARRY IN PUBLIC DOWN TOWN HUDSON WI. I HAD ONLY ONE INSTANCE, I WAS AT THE DQ IN HUDSON WI.

OK, that was in Wisconsin, barely! (Hudson is just across the border from Minnesota for those who don't know.) Surprisingly Hudson is one of the (seemingly rare)municipalities in Wisconsin that doesn't have a local ordinance regarding carrying firearms. Their ordinance only refers to carryingvarious types of knives and brass knuckles. Maybe they're enlightened enough to realize that local firearm ordinances arepreempted.

You may have been lucky in your encounter with LE. Hudson isn't big, only 8000+ people, and it has 7 public schools (probably some private schools too. Anyone carrying in Hudson is probably flirting dangerously with the stupid "school zone" law.

 

[apjonas]

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Since you don't want to read the other thread, I will copy the material here. Under Wisconsin law you cannot carry in the manner you describe. Please explain why I am wrong. The fact that one law says "you cannot carry except under condition A" does not prevent an different law from saying "carry under condition A is illegal." You have to read both laws together. Again what some random LEO thinks is immaterial. He is not going to be your defense lawyer.

My original post (with some new notes/emphasis):

It appears that open carry is required in some circumstances. You generally cannot carry concealed and under the definition given in the case below, an unloaded, encased handgun is still a concealed “dangerous weapon” and you cannot have it on your person (or next to you on the seat of a car). Now you can transport it in the trunk but how do you get it to/from the trunk? I suppose under Hamdan, it is not problem if your starting/ending points are your home and/or business but what if you want to go to a commercial range?

941.23 Carrying concealed weapon. Any person except a peace officer who goes armed with a concealed and dangerous weapon is guilty of a Class A misdemeanor.

To "go armed" does not require going anywhere. The elements for a violation of s. 941.23 are: 1) a dangerous weapon is on the defendant's person or within reach; 2) the defendant is aware of the weapon's presence; and 3) the weapon is hidden. State v. Keith, 175 Wis. 2d 75, 498 N.W.2d 865 (Ct. App. 1993).

Except as provided in Hamdan you cannot carry concealed, period, end of story.

939.22(10) " Dangerous weapon " means any firearm, whether loaded or unloaded; any device designed as a weapon and capable of producing death or great bodily harm; any electric weapon, as defined in s. 941.295 (4); or any other device or instrumentality which, in the manner it is used or intended to be used, is calculated or likely to produce death or great bodily harm.

167.31(2)(b) Except as provided in sub. (4), no person may place, possess or transport a firearm, bow or crossbow in or on a vehicle, unless the firearm is unloaded and encased or unless the bow or crossbow is unstrung or is enclosed in a carrying case.

So it's your choice -- violate 167.31 or 941.23 or trunk carry (maybe)

any uncased handgun (loaded or not)= violation of 167.31

any cased handgun (loaded or not), on your person or within reach - violation of 941.23

any cased handgun (loaded) in trunk - violation of 167.31

any cased handgun (unloaded) in trunk - probably ok but how did you get it to the trunk?

 

[apjonas]

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The minute you got in your truck, you were in violation of Wisconsin law. You were in Wisconsin whether one mile or one foot. You got lucky. Don't press your luck.

freedom1 wrote:

I WAS REFERING TO THE OPEN CARRY IN PUBLIC DOWN TOWN HUDSON WI. I HAD ONLY ONE INSTANCE, I WAS AT THE DQ IN HUDSON WI. AND WAS WAITING IN LINE AND AN PAIR OF OFFICERS WERE PULLING IN, I WAS NEXT IN LINE, THEY GOT TO THE END OF THE LINE ANDJUST GLANCED AT ME FUNNY GAVE THE ONCE OVER LOOK,I DON'T KNOW IF THEY WERE UNEASY OR WHAT. MAYBE THEY JUST WANTED THEIR ICE CREAM AND WANTED THE LINE TO MOOVE FASTER, BUT I WENT ON MY WAY WHEN I PASSED THEM I JUST SMILED AND GREETED THEM AND WENT ON MY WAYAND THEY DID NOT EVEN ASK ME OR CONFRONT ME ABOUT IT.

IT KIND OF GOES WITH MY LAST STATEMENT, IF YOU LOOK LIKE YOUR UP TO TROUBLE OR NERVOUS ABOUT CARRYING, CHANCES ARE YOU SET OFF RED FLAGS TO OFFICERS AND PEDESTRIANS WHILE OUT IN PUBLIC. I DROVE MYTRUCKTHAT DAY AND THEY DID NOT COME AFTER ME OR FOLLOW ME TO THE BOARDER.

 

[apjonas]

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And it was also a good way to put your Minnesota permit at risk.

 

[freedom1]

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This is probably true but this was my experience and I don't make a habit of it because of the 20 different aspects of the laws but I have had no issuesthus far and have carriedevery day since allowed in MN and have crossed the line once or twice with either it in the case on my hip or unloaded and cased which ever way you can think of and I was probably wrong in all instances but it facts still remains on how you read between the lines and it's totally up to each person and the law officer (final descision)on how it is to be interpreted so good luck to anyone whom crosses into Wisconsin, I guess you will just have to carry a base ball bat, Oh wait that is a weapon too, never mind.

 

[Shotgun]

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Shotgun wrote:

You may have been lucky in your encounter with LE. Hudson isn't big, only 8000+ people, and it has 7 public schools (probably some private schools too. Anyone carrying in Hudson is probably flirting dangerously with the stupid "school zone" law.

After thinking more about it I would amend my earlier comment to mention that while you wereat the Dairy Queen you were on private property-- and the "school zone" prohibition does not apply to firearms within 1000' of school grounds if it's on private property.

 

[Lammie]

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Apjonas:

Here's something for you to ponder. All the information you posted concerning Wisconsin statutes 941.23 and 167.31(2)(b) is correct. However, you like many others presume you can avoid being charged for concealed carry of a firearm in a vehicle by "locking it in the trunk". In other words avoid one of the three conditions the Wisconsin Supreme Court says identifies concealment. The conditions were first declared in State v Kieth and later in State v Hamdan. They are: The person knows the weapon is present. The weapon is hidden from view: The weapon is within reach. These conditions put 941.23 and 167.31(2)(b) in apparent conflict with each other. Many people say, including the Wisconsin Supreme Court, say "well it's easy to avoid the concealment issue. Just put the unloaded encased weapon out of reach".

In Wisconsin it is legal to carry a weapon on any motorized vehicle including a motorcycle, rubber raft with a trolling motor, all terrain vehicle, trail bike, snowmobile and others. All of those vehicles are motor vehicles by definition. How does one carry a unloaded, hidden from view, weapon on them out of reach?

I have sucessfully argued this issue with both my state senator and with the legal department of the DNR. Both indicate, however, that they expect to do little about the controversy. Meanwhile every hunting season many people are charged and fined for violating 167.31(2)(b) when in fact they would have been guilty of violating 941.23 if they had complied. What we need is an opinion from the state attorney general. Unfortunately the request for an opinion has to be frothcoming from some official office. Wisconsin state law says the attorney general does not have to answer questions concerning law interpretations from the general public. Even though the AG is an elected office.

It is my opinion that Article 1 chapter 25; The people have the right to keep and bear arms for defense, security,recreation, hunting or any lawful purpose and Article 1 chapter 26; The people have the right to hunt and fish, as well as the rulings in the Hamdan case, make either statute 941.23 or statute 167.31(2)(b) or both unconstitutional. Here's why.


It is perfectly legal to carry a firearm on a ATV in order to travel to a hunting location. In doing so if a person encases the unloaded firearm as required by 167.31(2)(b) and is unable to carry it out of reach the person is then in violation of 941.23. In the Hamdan case the SSC ruled that Wisconsin has the authority to regulate the manner of weapons carry. The two manners being hidden and visible. It has that right even under the shadow of Article 1 chapter 25. However, the SSC also said that if the State prosecutes violation of one manner of carry it must allow a reasonble alternative or yield to the amendment. I

In the case of transporting, or for that matter just resting, a weapon on an ATV it is impossible to comply with one of the statutes without violating the other. Therefore, any charges of violating either of the statutes is an onfringement of the state constitutional rights given by Article 1 chapter 25 because under the circumstances the State does not provide a reasonable alternative.

Time will tell how this plays out in the courts but I feel it is headed for a showdown in the not too distant future.

 

[lockman]

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Lammie wrote:

I have sucessfully argued this issue with both my state senator and with the legal department of the DNR. Both indicate, however, that they expect to do little about the controversy.

Did you ask them to request a AG opinion on this matter?

Also, I may use your information provided to write my rep/sen (Vilas Co,) to request the same.

 

[tarzan1888]

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apjonas wrote:

Well, kiddies I'm gone. OCDO has finally reached PDO condition. The newest technique is for a moderator to prevent comment on, corrections to, or other response to demonstrably false and silly claims. If the members want this board to be a mutual admiration society (or more crudely, a circle jerk) so be it. At the beginning, I had much hope for this endeavor but it seems (any psychologist chime in) that there is always a slow, steady migration to group think and control by the most vocal posters. Thus, once it has been established that the correct position (also know as the "party line") is A, anybody who suggests B, or heaven forfend, C-Z is pounced upon. Name calling and insults become the order of the day rather than a rational, logical and calm discussion of the issues. Sometimes people throw out communication stopping words (a la "Nazi") because they have no counterargument. This type of "winning" may be comforting to some but it simply undermines the effort towards (what I thought was) a common goal. People at LCAV, TBC, etc. must laugh their posteriors off when they read (and they do) some of the posts here. With such people as opponents they must be encouraged. I sometimes think that the posters who engage in undermining tactics are really moles. Would that be paranoid? I sincerely hope that OCDO can pull out of its death spiral. I won't offer suggestions because they will be attacked by those who see themselves in my words (then again some may be so oblivious to their actions that they think I'm talking about the "other guy.") Apologies for any errors here. I don't want to take the time to edit. I will read posts from time to time to see if the atmosphere has changed but I have little hope. Good luck to all.

Andrew Percival Jonas

My MY MY your back :celebrate

 

[Lammie]

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Andrew:
I don't know if your comments were aimed at me or not. It matters not. Believe me I know exactly of which you speak. I am 67 years old. Before retiring I spent 34 years as a manager in the design engineering department of a major computer manufacturer. During that time I learned very much about the process of politics. Politics is a strange thing. It can't be avoided. Any time more than one person gets together it rears it's ugly head. It is the reason Pogo voiced his famous quote "We have met the enemy and he is us".

You mentioned the possibility of "moles" amoung us. I ran into that a number of times. The opposition places top priority on infiltration. They find that if they muddy the waters enough many members will desert the cause. I don't know if the people that are currently creating the noise on this forum are moles or not. It is clear however that they have lost sight of the common cause and the purpose of the forum. The purpose being to make open carry happen in Wisconsin. Such things as name calling, insults over a person's grammar, making counter arguments to supportive arguments and just plain projecting a negative position to our cause, is childish and detrimental. It serves no better pupose than to demonstrate to our opponents that our cause will fail. If they aren't part of the solution then they are part of the problem.

Everybody on this forum should be part of the solution. My physical health won't allow me to participate in a physical demonstration of open carry. My contribution and support is one of knowledge of Wisconsin firearm laws and the time and ability to do research and reporting the results of each on the forum. I know there are members on this forum that think I am some kind of run off at the mouth smart ass. So what! there are probably an equal number that think I have something worthwhile to contribute.

I have read your contributions. You obviously have a high level of kowledge on firearm issues and how to research. So what if your grammar isn't on the level of Shakesphere, you get the point accross and that is what matters. If the important members of a forum "cut bait and run" when the going gets a little tough, the opponents win.

Now, the bottom line on why I am a member of the forum.

I am a licensed state and federal firearms dealer. As such I have the responsibility of knowing the state and federal firearm laws and regulations. If I give a person wrong information and that person gets in legal trouble I am subject to a $10,000 fine and/or ten years in the slammer. I take my responsibility very seriously. That is why I am interested in finding a resolution to the confusing issues of firearm carry in vehicles,disorderly conduct and in the right of open carry.

Stay involved.

 

[Malum Prohibitum]

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Lammie wrote:

I am interested in finding a resolution to the confusing issues of firearm carry in vehicles,disorderly conduct and in the right of open carry.

Stay involved.

Lammie, as afirearms dealer, you could easily publicize to a lot of people any new group's efforts to have open carry recognized as a right and something for which Wisconsonites will not be harassed.

 

[Pointman]

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*

 

[hugh jarmis]

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What a different world it becomes when one or two people take a stand for their rights.

I agree. What a couple individuals did for freedom in Wisconsin that brought an entire government in cue is amazing.

A couple people did great things. And a couple dozen people did little things. And look where you guys brought us. Very proud. Thank-you.

 

[bnhcomputing]

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Yes, just look how far we have come.

But I am reminded that FREEDOM isn't FREE. We must continue to educate, that is why I had 5,000 of Para's pamphlet printed. I will be handing them out at the picnic, and hopefully we can get these to every gun shop, gun show, and gun club in the state.

Education is the ONLY thing that will stop the "stigma" and the prejudice.

 

[hugh jarmis]

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I don't think there is the "stigma and prejudice" we might think there is in the general public.

I think in the NEWS media there is and some loud-mouth-control-freak politicians there certainly is, but I am CONSISTENTLY amazed when I come across people I know to be (for example) liberals in every sense of the word, but they TOTALLY support the RKBA AND open carry.

Don't let the news media and Leon Young fool you. The people of wisconsin OVERwhelmingly support open carry, and law abiding citizens arming themselves.

It only takes one "freak out" citizen out of 1000 to make a big splash as far as the news is concerned, but thats the exception, not the rule.

The public may be ignorant, but they are not against us. We just need to keep OC'ing, be positive examples, and let the reality of open carry speak for itself.