imported post
Prophet wrote:
You bring up some interesting points flintlock. I will try to clarify my views as best I can.
My passion for animals? Let me ask you a question, how many evil animals do you know? Barring the 2 lions from The Ghost and the Darkness i don't know of any and even thats a stretch. Evil is a human invention, i guess it comes from the ability to reason and rationalize. If you do that enough, evil is just a point of view. There are no evil animals. Killer Pit bulls, rampaging circus elephants etc. they are not evil, they have been either mistreated, abused or trained wrong and thus they are merely a reflection of the humans who raised them. Animals live by a natural law that humans have long ago, out of hubris and greed, cast aside. Barring locusts, animals will eat only what they need, occupy territory only so large as they need, utilize nearly everything that they kill and make war only for the defense of the aforementioned acts.
Thanks for taking the time to respond Prophet. Your post was articulate, but I still mostly disagree. I would say there is no real way to know that every animal that goes beserk can be blamed on humans. Elephants are wild animals. Wild animals sometimes act , well, very wild...
Some dogs are more naturally aggressive than others. And some animals eat much more than they need. I have seen ocean birds eat so much they couldn't fly and their gut was dipping into the waterand I have seenbears thatwere over 1200 poundsthat eat 100 pounds of salmon a day and only the fatty, nutritious parts, discarding the rest, mostly the meat. And many dogs will eat practically until they die if they get into a whole bag of food or trash. There are other glutunous animals besides humans.
I think that animals react mostly on instinct and to say that they are always provoked or dealt with negatively by humans 100% of the time would be a big stretch. Are humans responsible for some or even most of animal behavior? I will concede that an argument can be made for that, but I think most of it is assumed and not necessarilyknowable.
Humans on the other hand, will slash and burn entire forests in order to build homes far larger than they would possibly need. Toss plastics and polymers into the ocean so an island of debris, nearly 10% the size of the pacific ocean, that will never dissolve. Humans are a wasteful, arrogant, polluting cancer on the earth. And all that could be forgiven if only we didn't know any better. I can forgive ignorance, what I will not forgive is the apathy and what that apathy will do to the planet. I'm not talking about global warming, i don't believe that humans effect the global temp, what i mean is that animals will continue to dissappear so that one day, when its just us, the goats and the cows, our decendents will wonder what a world full of diversity really was like.
There are many interesting points here, many of which I agree with. We are wasteful, arrogant, and polluting. However, that doesn't make us evil. Perhaps ignorant and many other ways to describe it, but there are more polluting countries than others and certainly not all can be blamed on one or the other. The United States could be the cleanest place on earth but if the Chinese don't follow suit, it is not accomplishing anything globally.
In summation, my passion comes down to the fact that animals don't make other animals go extinct. That "honor" is reserved for the creature called man.
I don't believe that is true. I would like to see some research or documentation to back up this claim. Dinosaurs? Numerous fish and sea creatures, etc..
Personally, I believe we have played a role by slaughtering whales and bison andotters, etc, but there are many creatures that would kill and eat other species in their area until they are gone and then move on to another as we have. We have this problem in Alaska with wolves and bears eraticating entire moose herds in certain areas of the state. These by the way are in some areas that are not huntable or are very limited in hunting and have little human pressure.
As for your other suggestions, I don't think limiting the amount of children a person has is that bad of an idea. Though I think that it should be a personal decision not to overpopulate the planet with more offspring than you can care for. If the only way you can pay for your 8 kids is to have a reality tv show then you should be ashamed of yourself, your children should be taken from you and you should be sterilized. The same goes for crack whores and welfare moms who pop out more kids just to get a bigger gubment check. So, you're idea of limiting the amount of kids people should have holds merit...its just a matter of deciding implementation.
Actually, they were not suggestions but I was really questioning your intent of your previous post. I think there are some things in here we can agree on but it is not ever going to happen. Nobody wants a government in a so-called free land telling you whether your child should be offed or have you sterilized because there is no more room... What happens when someone breaks the law and has too many kids? Kill them? Kinda puts a damper on life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, doesn't it?
Eradicating people? What do you think disease is? It is the earths way to control population. The more of the environment we destroy the more virulent the diseases become. It's how the world keeps things in checks and balances. Unfortunately, instead of accepting this humans continue to try and live longer, developing drugs that only suppress disease instead of wiping it out and eventually the bacteria or viruses will become so strong a worldwide epidemic will probably be a second black death.
Bad for humans, good for the earth. Like getting a haircut when you left it unwashed too long and it starts to dred lock.
Are you suggesting we not try to live longer? Is our life not worth living to the furthest and best extent possible? If not, then why do we supposedly believe in self-defense in the first place?
As for more spaces for animals, i would limit where people can move and start communities. The idea that we need so much space is ridiculous. Eventually, if everyone has space then there will be no more space for anything but picket fences, mowed lawns and 2 car garages.
I guess in the end, the thing that really moves me when it comes to animals over people is that you never hear of an animal saying: Animals First. Humans will crush, under heel all that stands in their way, while animals will look to live in symbiosis with their environment.
I would suggest that humans, as animals, were not "designed" to live on top of each other in tiny apartment buildings. We need to be free ranging as well as the buffalo and flocks of birdsand we alsoneed to farm and travel, etc. That takes an enormous amount of land with billions of people on the earth.I believe that is what we are born to do. We have dreams and ideas and we implement plans. I don't know that other animals do that other than to mate or find another meal.
Perhaps some houses are more than necessary, but there are plenty that don't even have homes and put very small footprints on the earth.
Lastly, I would say that humans have made and still make extraordinary mistakes with regards to the environment and with animals. However, we have learned from many of those mistakes and have saved many species from the brink ofextinction. We have set aside vast amounts of land for their protection from us and do a lot better now than what we did in the 1700's and 1800's. I don't think that can really be denied.
