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Not being stopped for OC recently

Dennis Estell

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 24, 2013
Messages
15
Location
Des Moines
Ever since my court case was decided, I have continued to OC almost every day in Des Moines and have not been stopped at all. I have had many occasions where a LEO will drive right by me and look but nothing else. Had one LEO stop and talk to me about a car accident I witnessed, and the LEO and several other officers didnt say a word about it. Other people that OC in Des Moines that I have talked to have not been stopped since the court ruling either. Its making me think that DMPD may be backing off this issue. I think someone in the department figured out that if LEOs kept pushing the permit issue, they would lose big in the end. What do you guys think?
 
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Mike

Site Co-Founder
Joined
May 13, 2006
Messages
8,709
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia, USA
OK, can you bring me up to speed?

What is the issue?

We are tracking that in incorporated areas of IA open carriers must have a concealed carry permit. Having said that, as usual, under Terry v. Ohio, Delaware v. Prouse, 440 U.S. 648 (1979) (police cannot stop car drivers just to check out driver license absent RAS of crime afoot), and progeny, police must have RAS to seize open carrier to check for license where state law requires a license to open carry.
 

Dennis Estell

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 24, 2013
Messages
15
Location
Des Moines
Iowa is backwards from most of the country on this. Under Iowa law, open and concealed carry inside city limits is a crime. Even if i have my permit on my person, I am constantly commiting an aggravated misdemeanor. I was arrested last august(I wont say if it was on purpose) for refusing to show my permit while OC inside city limits. The judge ruled in my favor, as 724.5 of the Iowa code only applies to concealed weapons. It gets super confusing after this, because LEOs can stop anyone OC inside city limits simply for the firearm. The permit is a affirmative defense, which only purpose is not allowing a LEO to charge me with carrying weapons. The second I walk away, I go right back to commiting a agg. misdemeanor. Most states cannot stop OC for simply carrying, but in Iowa, that is not the case inside city limits. So if I get stopped for OC, and refuse to produce a permit, the LEO could simply arrest me for carrying weapons. It is my lawyers and I opinion that the carrying weapons statute in Iowa is unconstitutional, as it makes the 2nd amend. a crime inside city limits. If a OC was arrested for carrying weapons after refusing to show a permit, the carrying weapons statute would be ruled unconstitutional, and Iowa would finally be like most other states regarding OC.
 

Dennis Estell

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 24, 2013
Messages
15
Location
Des Moines
In my case, I was arrested for refusal to produce a permit, and carrying weapons was added later. The only reason we could not get a ruling on 2nd and 4th amend. violations was the fact that, at the time of the arrest, DMPD(and pretty much everyone else) were using 724.5 for open and concealed, so the arresting officer was inside the bounds of the law(as it was interpereted at the time) during the arrest. Now that I have a ruling that didnt go the way LEOs thought it would, OC stops have halted on myself and all other OCers in Des Moines that I have been in contact with. Im just amazed that the Des Moines Register, all 3 news channels, and WHO radio were all broadcasting about my arrest, but not a peep about the court verdict. Makes me think DMPD dosent want anyone to know about it.
 

BB62

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Aug 17, 2006
Messages
4,040
Location
Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
...I'm just amazed that the Des Moines Register, all 3 news channels, and WHO radio were all broadcasting about my arrest, but not a peep about the court verdict. Makes me think DMPD dosent want anyone to know about it.
Oh no, the media isn't about to let people know they have a RIGHT that has anything to do with guns.
 

amaixner

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2008
Messages
308
Location
Linn County, Iowa
OK, can you bring me up to speed?

What is the issue?

We are tracking that in incorporated areas of IA open carriers must have a concealed carry permit. Having said that, as usual, under Terry v. Ohio, Delaware v. Prouse, 440 U.S. 648 (1979) (police cannot stop car drivers just to check out driver license absent RAS of crime afoot), and progeny, police must have RAS to seize open carrier to check for license where state law requires a license to open carry.

when we rewrote the carry law in 2010, there was a small part that was unintentionaslly (in a good way) worded such that while you must carry your permit for OC in a city, you are not actually required to show it to an LEO unless you a CCing. He was arrested for obeying this law, and the judge clarified that he was in the right and the DMPD was wrong.
 
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BB62

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Aug 17, 2006
Messages
4,040
Location
Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
when we rewrote the carry law in 2010, there was a small part that was unintentionaslly (in a good way) worded such that while you must carry your permit for OC in a city, you are not actually required to show it to an LEO unless you a CCing. He was arrested for obeying this law, and the judge clarified that he was in the right and the DMPD was wrong.
Say what? You must carry a permit in order to OC, but are only required to show it when you are CC???
 

skidmark

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 15, 2007
Messages
10,449
Location
Valhalla
Say what? You must carry a permit in order to OC, but are only required to show it when you are CC???

It's Iowa - probably has something to do with exposure to Maid Rite http://www.maid-rite.com/

Regardless, it appears that the local court has set the DMPD straight on how the court wants the law(s) interpreted, which IMHO is the important part.

Congratulations, Dennis, and thank you for your fortitude in standing up against DMPD's attempt to impose their views about OC.

stay safe.
 

BB62

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Aug 17, 2006
Messages
4,040
Location
Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
...Regardless, it appears that the local court has set the DMPD straight on how the court wants the law(s) interpreted, which IMHO is the important part...
If I'm reading him and you correctly, that's like saying "You are required to have a license to drive a car, but you're only required to show it when you're NOT driving a car"!

:question: :question:
 

SovereignAxe

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2011
Messages
795
Location
Elizabethton, TN
Iowa is backwards from most of the country on this. Under Iowa law, open and concealed carry inside city limits is a crime. Even if i have my permit on my person, I am constantly commiting an aggravated misdemeanor. I was arrested last august(I wont say if it was on purpose) for refusing to show my permit while OC inside city limits. The judge ruled in my favor, as 724.5 of the Iowa code only applies to concealed weapons. It gets super confusing after this, because LEOs can stop anyone OC inside city limits simply for the firearm. The permit is a affirmative defense, which only purpose is not allowing a LEO to charge me with carrying weapons. The second I walk away, I go right back to commiting a agg. misdemeanor. Most states cannot stop OC for simply carrying, but in Iowa, that is not the case inside city limits. So if I get stopped for OC, and refuse to produce a permit, the LEO could simply arrest me for carrying weapons. It is my lawyers and I opinion that the carrying weapons statute in Iowa is unconstitutional, as it makes the 2nd amend. a crime inside city limits. If a OC was arrested for carrying weapons after refusing to show a permit, the carrying weapons statute would be ruled unconstitutional, and Iowa would finally be like most other states regarding OC.

I feel you. Just be glad though that it only applies inside city limits. TN basically has the same law, except for the whole state, including the requirement to produce the permit on request by LEOs. Carrying a firearm-openly or concealed, is a class c misdemeanor (not sure if that is considered aggravated or what), and the TN HCP is an affirmative defense. Thankfully though, I don't think anyone has been arrested or cited for carrying with a permit.

And I agree with you that both laws are unconstitutional. Making carry a crime (2A), and producing the permission slip upon request (4A). Unfortunately no one like yourself has gone to be a test case on these laws for us.
 
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