Missouri CCW at 18?

[Ezek]

wow ezek, you consider me 'slightly' brash, you just watched the master at work...

ipse

Well I was merely easing him into that which is the acquired taste of OCDO members.

so, your an acquired taste. and to be more frank, I have similar tastes in tactlessness. :lol:

 

[Ezek]

Here ya go.

4. Subdivisions (1), (8), and (10) of subsection 1 of this section shall not apply to any person who has a valid concealed carry permit issued pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121, a valid concealed carry endorsement issued before August 28, 2013, or a valid permit or endorsement to carry concealed firearms issued by another state or political subdivision of another state.
Here is the URL for the whole she bang on MO law if ya want to decipher the whole enchilada.

http://www.moga.mo.gov/mostatutes/chapters/chapText571.html

I think the bolded covers the OP's question.

and if the OP just happens to have some conflicting issues.. could always invite them out to the local paintball field for a day of splatzwarz.

I find it is very therapeutic. it will also give some of the training one is looking for if you go MilSim Scenario. and if you make a mistake you will be rewarded with the knowledge, and a 3 day minimum reminder.

 

[STLDaniel]

During my CCW class, the instructor structured his class to meet the requirements of several states that allowed non-resident permits, and taught several MO 18 year olds. As noted previously, MO law only restricts the age for issuance of MO permits and accepts all other states permits without any listed exception. The difference between that and the drivers permits is that MO law explicitly accepts all out of state CCW permits. While driver's licenses are honored across state lines, I'm not aware of any MO statute that honors all learner's permits from all states the way that CCW permits are honored.

 

[TannerB]

I think the bolded covers the OP's question.

and if the OP just happens to have some conflicting issues.. could always invite them out to the local paintball field for a day of splatzwarz.

I find it is very therapeutic. it will also give some of the training one is looking for if you go MilSim Scenario. and if you make a mistake you will be rewarded with the knowledge, and a 3 day minimum reminder.

Hey, I don't think we want anyone having to go home crying I have the whooooole shebang in paintball lol. I used to play pretty serious a while back. It was a pretty good time.

And to everyone else: Wow, lots of info coming in fast. Thank you all for being helpful, I know many people have different ways of getting the info across and I'm fine with that. "Brash" or not. I'm on a few other forums so I've seen it all, don't worry about it. As long as theres factual info coming in, I have no problem with it.

 

[TannerB]

I won't be making any decision or action until I either talk to someone who knows (lawyer, AG, etc...), or find it hiding in writing somewhere. I'm not dumb enough to do that without actually knowing for sure.

Thanks for the input though.

 

[OC for ME]

RSMo 571.030. Unlawful use of weapons--exceptions--penalties.

1. A person commits the crime of unlawful use of weapons if he or she knowingly:

(1) Carries concealed upon or about his or her person a knife, a firearm, a blackjack or any other weapon readily capable of lethal use; or ...

4. Subdivisions (1), (8), and (10) of subsection 1 of this section shall not apply to any person who has a valid concealed carry permit issued pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121, a valid concealed carry endorsement issued before August 28, 2013, or a valid permit or endorsement to carry concealed firearms issued by another state or political subdivision of another state.

The plain reading of RSMo 571.030 provided the answer to the OP's question.

 

[Ezek]

So, it appears that since you have been unable to produce a court decision or explicit wording in any statute, it is your opinion that out of state licenses issued to persons 18-19 years of age will be honored in Mo. I wish you good luck. It makes no difference to me whether Mo. honors those licenses or not. I am certain that my age and my license will qualify. My interest was strictly curiosity. I thought I might learn something about Mo. law. Sadly, I have learned nothing, except that nobody really knows the answer and nobody will know until a judge gives us his opinion. I sincerely hope that you are not involved in that opinion and also hope that, if TannerB or anyone else relies on your advice and is charged with carrying a concealed weapon without a valid license, you will pay all expenses and serve their time for them.

being a little thick here IMO, the wording says any CCW issued by another state or it's political subdivision, it does NOT exclude non resident permits. the wording on this seems pretty clear here.

 

[TannerB]

Okay then, thoughts on applying for a Maine non-resident permit given the info provided allows me to use an out of state permit? If it works out I will be looking for a good place to get the proper training (Around St. Charles County). I have a few places in mind already.

https://www1.maine.gov/dps/msp/licenses/documents/Weapons/non-resident application package.pdf

 

[Grapeshot]

Okay then, thoughts on applying for a Maine non-resident permit given the info provided allows me to use an out of state permit? If it works out I will be looking for a good place to get the proper training (Around St. Charles County). I have a few places in mind already.

https://www1.maine.gov/dps/msp/licenses/documents/Weapons/non-resident application package.pdf

Good luck with this - would be pleased to find out that it has worked well for you. Let us know.

 

[TannerB]

Will do! I wonder if I'd be one of the first non-military 18 y/o's in Missouri to try this...

 

[9026543]

Not hardly I know of a person in a nearby town whose daughter got a Maine permit at 18 and carried on it until she reached her 21 first birthday and she didn't have a judges ruling.

 

[TannerB]

Well that answers that

 

[Grapeshot]

Not hardly I know of a person in a nearby town whose daughter got a Maine permit at 18 and carried on it until she reached her 21 first birthday and she didn't have a judges ruling.

Well that answers that

That is no different than having been told by a friend of a friend that something is legal or illegal and expecting to use that hersay in a court of law as your defense - not a really good idea.

We already recommended certain means to validate your opinion(s) on the interpertation of the laws. Nothing has occured to change that thinking.

Was the young lady arrested and tried to establish case law? If so, please cite it. If she was not, then no precident has been established.

Still, I wish you well, TannerB.

 

[OC for ME]

That is no different than having been told by a friend of a friend that something is legal or illegal and expecting to use that hearsay in a court of law as your defense - not a really good idea.

We already recommended certain means to validate your opinion(s) on the interpretation of the laws. Nothing has occurred to change that thinking.

Was the young lady arrested and tried to establish case law? If so, please cite it. If she was not, then no precedent has been established.

Still, I wish you well, TannerB.

Why would a MO cop arrest a 18 y/o with a valid permit from another state? Please do not presume that all MO cops do not know RSMo 571.030...only a small percentage are anti-citizen and will misunderstand...uh, use the Heien defense...typically Big City cops.

 

[Grapeshot]

Why would a MO cop arrest a 18 y/o with a valid permit from another state? Please do not presume that all MO cops do not know RSMo 571.030...only a small percentage are anti-citizen and will misunderstand...uh, use the Heien defense...typically Big City cops.

I am not presuming. Even after all of the discussion, I am not convinced/sold on the legality.

Have previously said that IMO it will come down to a court of law to render a decision and that I hope he is proven right. Wished him well too.

The Missouri legislature could have included the phrase "or with a recognized/accepted permit from another state, regardless of age of issuance" - It did not, which leads me to legislative intent and to believe the legislators did not intend to leave that door wide open for residents of Missouri. OTOH - you may have found a legal loophole. Good luck/best wishes in demonstrating that.

 

[TannerB]

But still, how many times am I really gonna get stopped while CONCEALED carrying unless I'm being a dumb ass and attracting negative attention. Even then, if I'm in a traffic stop I'm legally able to have a handgun on me.

 

[solus]

tanner, read the threads around you about the police interaction with its citizen(s) and the sometimes injustices incurring. while you might beat the rap, you won't beat the ride and believe it or not those interactions get recorded and could have an impact on you getting into the armed forces, university, getting a security position which requires a clearance.

i know you can explain them off as youthful transgressions...but those doing the clearances for the military or security clearances might not see them that way. explaining them to the work study university registrar clerk reviewing your application will only see the word firearm and you are blacklisted, especially since the the educational arena you will not be afforded the opportunity to reach someone to over turn the clerks 'no'.

cavalier attitude at your age could have devastating repercussions throughout your adult life.

just saying

ipse

 

[STLDaniel]

I think that this comes down to a common problem that we have citing to authority, in that it's very easy to cite when something is illegal. It can be difficult (sometimes impossible) to cite that something is legal. Rarely do laws explicitly outline legal actions, so the only cite is if there was a court case that set precedent. (For instance, can I open carry while chewing bubble gum? Can you cite any authority to prove your answer?).

That being said, activist judges don't particularly care, and could easily read "intent" into the age restriction on MO CCW's issuance to be applicable across all states permits, even though that isn't the wording. Heck, they've applied the CCW restrictions to open carry, and said the zoo is a school.

So I believe you won't be able to find anyone or anything that definitively settles this for you. Plain reading of the law cited shows is legal. Judges decisions are unpredictable. Decide the odds of you being "caught"/cited vs. the cost of defending the plain wording in court.

 

[JoeSparky]

Tanner et al, I think it is clear per the cite missouri statutes that specify the state will recongnize any other permit (slight paraphrase) that anyone with a permit has a permit.
Not saying some OPINION Enforcement Officer won't give someone some special extra legal attention just cause he wants too and can (pending potential civilrights proceedings)

 

[Grapeshot]

It is not a issue of prejudice. They are trained that CC is only legal for licensed people 19 and over. Do you suppose that Mo. LEO are taught that the Maine license is an exception? Some will just do what they always do, cite or arrest because the suspect is underage. If they bother to look up the law they are going to get no help, as we have all seen here. Do you expect them all to just take the suspects word for it? The chances of detection and this becoming an issue are very small, but the question was asked and I am not surprised that there is a disparity of opinions.

The question of "intent" has been brought up. Does anyone think that the Mo. legislature "intended" to carve out an exception for 18 yo residents of far off Maine and then did not make it explicit that hey had done so. This is an oversight and nothing more. CC laws of most states have a disclaimer such as "all state's CC license are honored subject to the laws of this state", or something similar to that. I see that Mo. has not done that. Would anyone argue that any other provision of an out of state license supersedes the laws of Mo. For example, if a Mo. CC license does not allow carry in a courthouse, but a Maine license does. Would anyone argue that a person could carry in a MO courthouse with a Maine license? I doubt that many would do that, even though the statute makes no mention of it. Someday a person will become famous when a Mo. court decision is named after them when this is settled. Just like Terry v Ohio; by the way Terry, went to prison.

Well said Gutshot.

Legislative intent is a very real thing - have seen it used at trials.

Thanks for the reminder on Terry. I had forgotten that he was incarcerated in the end.