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Mill Creek in Violation of State Law

Right Wing Wacko

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Aug 11, 2007
Messages
645
Location
Marysville, Washington, USA
[h=3]12.12.110 Firearms prohibited.[/h]It is unlawful to carry a firearm in any park. This section shall not apply to police officers or to city employees acting pursuant to and in accordance with their authority and applicable law. This section shall not apply in designated and posted shooting, trap-shooting and skeet-shooting ranges in any park. (Ord. 2003-569 § 1)
 

MadHatter66

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2008
Messages
320
Location
Poulsbo, Kitsap County, Washington, USA
At the minimum write some letters, however as a non-resident of the city I fully expect to be ignored.

Can do what I have done in the past, and put in that you frequently visit their city, love it there and spend money while you are there. Then explain that you will not be visiting any longer and letting your friends, family and various internet groups know not to patronize the city until the unlawful ordinance is repealed. Money speaks especially to cities that are broke right now, just have to show them that you might not be a resident, but you can still make an impact through social networking and word of mouth. Plus, if enough non-residents write the same type of letter it can start to really look bad for them. If you stop and think about the numbers for a moment. 1 person has ~15 family members (extended or otherwise), say 5 core friends and say what, ~120 facebook friends? That's 140 people you are potentially reaching, so if 10 of us here write letters, the impact is 10 fold on that... and those are just low ball numbers I just threw out there without any research so they might be wildly off... Just a thought to ponder ;)
 

MSG Laigaie

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Joined
Jan 10, 2011
Messages
3,239
Location
Philipsburg, Montana
[QUOTE="Bookman, post: 1656370, member: 33680"]So what are you going to do about it?[/QUOTE]

Well I took a look at the park sites and found no reference to the prohibition of any weapons, legal or not. The ordinances are still on the books tho. I found the "contact us" page and messaged the following people

Community Development (Stephen C. Butler, Director, Tom Rogers, Planning Manager, Christi Amrine, Senior Planner, Camille Chriest, Senior planner,
Sherrie Ringstad, Planning Specialist)
Police Department (Bob Crannell, Police Chief, Robin Swanson, Support Services Mgr.)
Recreation Division (Pam Olson, Recreation Supervisor, Brian Davern, Recreation Assistant, Kristen Froseth, Recreation Assistant)

you can find them all at http://www.cityofmillcreek.com/CONTACT US__PAGE/FINAL_CONTACT_US_PAGE_2_OCTOBER_30.html

I will post any replies.
 

MSG Laigaie

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 10, 2011
Messages
3,239
Location
Philipsburg, Montana
I have a reply by city atty.

Mr. Laigaie,
MCMC 12.12.110 is not enforced by the City of Mill Creek. MCMC 12.12.115 is not enforced to the extent it prohibits the mere possession of a firearm. The City does enforce other firearms related regulations consistent with state law.
Best regards,

Shane Moloney
City Attorney
City of Mill Creek
Phone (425) 745-1891
Fax (425) 745-9650


I will ask 'why have a law you do not enforce'. The law implies a violation that is not there.
 

MSG Laigaie

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Jan 10, 2011
Messages
3,239
Location
Philipsburg, Montana
new reply/final answer?

Mr. Laigaie,
I don't know the history behind the adoption of the ordinance, but I assume that it was adopted at a time that there was a common understanding that such ordinances were enforceable. My understanding is that these types of ordinances have been common up until the City of Seattle's ordinance banning possession in parks was recently held to be unenforceable.
The City's police officers have been advised not to enforce the ban on possession of firearms in the parks. Amending the ordinance in the future is a possibility.
Best regards,
Shane Moloney
City Attorney
City of Mill Creek
Phone (425) 745-1891
Fax (425) 745-9650
 

Right Wing Wacko

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Aug 11, 2007
Messages
645
Location
Marysville, Washington, USA
Mr. Laigaie,
I don't know the history behind the adoption of the ordinance, but I assume that it was adopted at a time that there was a common understanding that such ordinances were enforceable. My understanding is that these types of ordinances have been common up until the City of Seattle's ordinance banning possession in parks was recently held to be unenforceable.
The City's police officers have been advised not to enforce the ban on possession of firearms in the parks. Amending the ordinance in the future is a possibility.
Best regards,
Shane Moloney
City Attorney
City of Mill Creek
Phone (425) 745-1891
Fax (425) 745-9650

He would be wrong then.

(Ord. 2003-569 § 1)

The ordinance was passed in 2003
 
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MAC702

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
6,331
Location
Nevada
In addition to the opinion of the city attorney, how about letters to the council with the ability to amend/repeal the law? Explain how the unlawful ordinance affects the social acceptance of lawful activities and encourages false calls of law-abiding citizens violating unenforceable unlawful ordinances. Just writing that made me dizzy.
 

MAC702

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Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
6,331
Location
Nevada
Also, while they SAY they do not enforce the law, and it is understood to mean that you can ignore the sign and expect not to be arrested, in reality, the mere posting of the sign is a step in the enforcement of the unlawful ordinance. To truly not enforce the ordinance would mean to remove the signs, even if the unlawful ordinance remained on the books.

Let's nevermind the cops for a minute. You should not be susceptible to a well-wishing neighboring citizen telling you, "Hey, there's no guns allowed here, Mister; see the sign?"

And even if nobody says anything, you are still setting a bad example by flagrantly disobeying a posted ordinance. You would be the only person that would know it was an unenforceable unlawful ordinance. I know how I feel every time I see someone smoking at a front entrance to a public building and I have to walk through the cloud right next to the sign that says "No smoking within 50 feet of entrance." I actually don't mind the smoke so much as the rudeness of a person completely ignoring the public sign asking them not to do it.
 
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geojohn

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 17, 2010
Messages
117
Location
Snohomish County, Washington, USA
Also, while they SAY they do not enforce the law, and it is understood to mean that you can ignore the sign and expect not to be arrested...

I agree with everything you said, but I don't recall seeing any signs in Mill Creek parks that indicate firearms are prohibited. I will do a quick survey of several this week to confirm though.
 

MadHatter66

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2008
Messages
320
Location
Poulsbo, Kitsap County, Washington, USA
These are the 3 examples that I tend to put into letters and emails that I wright. I emphasize the money part of it the most, pointing out that a wrongful death could be in the millions of dollars.

1...With the law on the books, you could still be asked to leave or arrested/cited under the code. Unlawful? You bet! But with the law on the books they can still arrest/cite you and "let the prosecutor sort it out" as a lot of cops like to do. This can lead to a civil suit for someones rights being violated, with tax payer money being shelled out in the end.

2... Its a liability for the municipality (county/city). If someone who is not as well versed in the RCW's as people here are, there is the potential for them to see said signage, leave their firearm in the car and have something happen to them while they are there. They can then turn to the municipality and sue them because their code is unlawful, and had they been able to have their firearm there might have been a totally different outcome. Imagine the amount of money out of the tax payer coffers for a wrongful death suit over a preempted code that they not only knew about, but just didn't feel like changing it. All it would take is for the emails and letters they send in response to someone pointing out their code is unlawful, and it would show they acknowledge that they are in fact wrong but just don't want to bother changing it.

3...The public opinion and example being set by the guy with the gun ignoring the sign... makes people that OC look like we just do what we want, and when we want and laws be damned. The problem is that they don't know that it is not enforceable, unlawful and preempted. So there ends up being one more person out there that is anti-oc because their perception is that we "carry guns, and do what we want."

The list goes on from here... I am sure that we can come up with many reasons that a unlawful code is a problem... But I have found that using these three examples in letters gets their attention, 1 and 2 the most because of the amount of money that could potentially be paid out to someone.
 

MAC702

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Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
6,331
Location
Nevada
I agree with everything you said, but I don't recall seeing any signs in Mill Creek parks that indicate firearms are prohibited. I will do a quick survey of several this week to confirm though.

My bad. I misremembered the OP and thought the ordinance was posted on a sign. Jeez, that just throws my whole last post out the window.
 

Phillip Denton

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 1, 2011
Messages
11
Location
Gig Harbor
there are signs at parks in pierce and kitsap counties... how do we get those changed/removed, i know at the purdy spit, the sign says no firearms, fires, fireworks, but ive seen the latter 2 right in front of a deputy, standing watching and not caring. i carry there as i know that the firearms part is invalid.
 

geojohn

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 17, 2010
Messages
117
Location
Snohomish County, Washington, USA
I was able to check two parks earlier today.

Cougar park, which is across the street from an elementary school, has no posted rules (that I could find) apart from no smoking signs.

Heron park had posted rules, but did not include any firearm or other weapon prohibitions.
 
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