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Man kills 2 cops in apparent retaliation for police killings NYC

twoskinsonemanns

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How does one "lose" a discussion? I recall one of your brethren recently claiming it was really "stupid" to even make a claim someone had "lost" a discussion.

Charles

Oh I'm not inclined to define it. It's a forum discussion after all. Just a sense of desperation when a person resorts to claiming people have reading comprehension problems when they don't agree with you and providing facts without cites. Anyway it doesn't bother me my "brethren" may think it's stupid lol. I love them anyway.
However in the spirit of new age progressiveness I am willing to award you a Proud Participant Award to take home and pin to your wall despite your loss.
 

marshaul

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Why do you find it insulting that my opinion is you come off as a statist? Why do you not consider yourself a statist? Are you anti-statist? It is not my intention to insult you, I am simply stating my opinion which I have gathered from your posts.

I wonder the same thing. Charles states he is a conservative "with some libertarian leanings", although I have yet to observe any of the latter (unless our shared RKBA interest counts).

Libertarians may sometimes treat "statist" as almost a bad word, but it's not really intended as an insult. It's function is to describe somebody as having a strong desire for large, active government. To view that tendency as bad, and therefore the term "statist" as meaningfully derogatory, it seems one would have to already get a bad taste in their mouth from the word "government". Otherwise, it's value-neutral.

Considering that every time I've butted heads with Charles over the years he's been defending some or other aspect of state intervention, he's clearly a fan of large, active government (at least by the standards of those who find the term "statist" useful).

In general, I'd say that if someone doesn't like statism, then they shouldn't be a statist. If, on the other hand, someone is a statist, then the word "statist" really shouldn't be an insult to them.

But I'm only thinking out loud here; I could be wrong.
 

WalkingWolf

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Oh I'm not inclined to define it. It's a forum discussion after all. Just a sense of desperation when a person resorts to claiming people have reading comprehension problems when they don't agree with you and providing facts without cites. Anyway it doesn't bother me my "brethren" may think it's stupid lol. I love them anyway.
However in the spirit of new age progressiveness I am willing to award you a Proud Participant Award to take home and pin to your wall despite your loss.

:lol:Sorry but that was funny, and intelligent. Thumbs up!
 

utbagpiper

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I think the point is you are asking for quantitative citations to the claim that "the government is oppressive," and yet refuse to provide a cite for a specific claim that WalkingWolf has requested.

I've been very upfront that I cannot provide any citation for my recollection (half a step above an opinion) that the Branch Davidians did not murder any cops but that police deaths were caused by friendly fire or by what I'd consider (an opinion) to be reasonable self defense.

I have asked for some evidence beyond the murders and riots that increasing government oppression is the reason for the riots and murders. One cannot use the murders and riots as evidence that government oppression is increasing if one claims that increasing government oppression is the reason for the murders and riots. Circular logic and begging the question.

You've provided some data that is well worthy of my consideration. You've also offered some thoughtful discussion.

Others have attacked, insulted, sniped, tried to divert with red herrings, and otherwise done their level best not to actually discuss what evidence we might point to of increasing government oppression.

I offered a list--imperfect and incomplete to be sure--suggesting that from a historical perspective, in many areas including freedom of expression, sexual privacy, RKBA, etc, we enjoy greater freedom today than at any time in modern history. For racial minorities, a case can be made that there is greater freedom than at any point ever in our nation's history.

Certainly I'm not the only one to notice the tremendous progress made on RKBA in this nation over the last 30 or so years since Florida reversed the old slave code and Jim Crow gun laws by moving to shall issue. Half a dozen States now provide some recognition of permit-free constitutional carry of both visible and concealed firearms. The vast majority provide shall issue permits to carry.

Is it such heresy to point out the increases in personal liberties (both RKBA and otherwise) that only one poster will even engage in meaningful discussion?

If we just want to sit around and agree with each other on how oppressive government is, that isn't very interesting. Nor very useful as we might discuss on to improve in areas that are seeing less freedom.

I don't understand the need some have to impart clearly unsupportable positions to those who don't agree with them 100%. Or to rush to insults. What is so hard about saying, "I disagree and here are some reasons.." rather than "Only statists, cop apologists, and folks who want to have women submit to rape see the world the way you do."

I've not attacked RKBA. I've not claimed the cops or government are blameless. I've suggested the world is not black and white. Interesting discussion occur in the gray areas. What is wrong with some discussion for the sake of learning what others think, even challenging our own thinking, or just to see what arguments and evidence others can present?

Charles
 

utbagpiper

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I wonder the same thing. Charles states he is a conservative "with some libertarian leanings", although I have yet to observe any of the latter (unless our shared RKBA interest counts).

Considering that every time I've butted heads with Charles over the years he's been defending some or other aspect of state intervention, he's clearly a fan of large, active government (at least by the standards of those who find the term "statist" useful).

I'm reminded of how the media sees only moderate and radical conservative Republicans. I've never heard mainstream media refer to anyone as a "liberal democrat." When one is so far to the left, everyone looks conservative.

In like fashion, when someone is so extreme in their libertarian views as to attack private contracts he finds offensive to his notion of a how a libertarian society would function, everyone looks likes a statist. Similarly, to an anarchist, any government looks huge and intrusive.

Sorry, but I don't believe for a moment that you use "statist" as value neutral. You use it as an insult.

And yet again, you are discussing everything except the topic of in what ways government is more oppressive or how those supposed oppressions are resulting in riots and murders.

Does anyone beside "the truth" have any interest in actually discussing the topic at hand? Or is it more important to beat up the heretic who suggests that maybe the group think is a bit unsupportable on this one?

Charles
 

WalkingWolf

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I'm reminded of how the media sees only moderate and radical conservative Republicans. I've never heard mainstream media refer to anyone as a "liberal democrat." When one is so far to the left, everyone looks conservative.

In like fashion, when someone is so extreme in their libertarian views as to attack private contracts he finds offensive to his notion of a how a libertarian society would function, everyone looks likes a statist. Similarly, to an anarchist, any government looks huge and intrusive.

Sorry, but I don't believe for a moment that you use "statist" as value neutral. You use it as an insult.

And yet again, you are discussing everything except the topic of in what ways government is more oppressive or how those supposed oppressions are resulting in riots and murders.

Does anyone beside "the truth" have any interest in actually discussing the topic at hand? Or is it more important to beat up the heretic who suggests that maybe the group think is a bit unsupportable on this one?

Charles

[video=youtube;76wzA2A2T1Q]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76wzA2A2T1Q[/video]
 

marshaul

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Messages
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Fairfax County, Virginia
Sorry, but I don't believe for a moment that you use "statist" as value neutral. You use it as an insult.

My words have precisely zero meaning but that which you ascribe to them.

Blorg grop zoot sem. (That might have been a grievous insult in a language I may have just made up.)

And yet again, you are discussing everything except the topic of in what ways government is more oppressive or how those supposed oppressions are resulting in riots and murders.

Just following the thread of conversation. I already replied substantively to your last on-topic post, but you ignored that post in favor in this more recent one, presumably so that you could accuse me of not being willing to discuss.

And, yes, Charles, I am unremittingly hostile to a form of "contract" which could, by ratchet effect, bind the entire country into perpetuity. If you want to pretend that HOAs are purely a legitimate extension of contract rights, with absolutely no flaws, then you need to reform that potentiality first. As it stands, more communities are bound by HOAs which nominally should exist forever than ever have been in the past, and your specious claim that this is nothing more than a result of market demand is strongly contradicted by the fact that basically every homeowner who isn't actively on their HOA board opposes their HOA.

(No, I can't provide a citation for the last claim, but a perusal of any of the dozens of threads like the following, coupled with a bit of intellectual honesty, make its truth fairly self-evident:

http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/c5716/dear_reddit_my_neighborhood_is_creating_an_hoa/

I myself have yet to meet a single individual, other than perhaps yourself, who favors their HOA and is not also on its board.)

Frankly, your HOA apologia would be far more convincing if it was honest about its utilitarian motivations. Pretending that contract rights are the baby in the HOA bathwater is rather dishonest, in my estimation. I understand the appeal to contract rights is intended to be strong with a libertarian audience, but most of us didn't have in mind inter-generational ratchets when we decided that contracting was a right.
 
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utbagpiper

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Please cite where the RKBA has increased? And please spare us with posting privileges, they are not rights.

According to Wiki:

"Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, Vermont and Wyoming allow residents to carry a concealed firearm without a permit.These states also allow the open carry of a handgun without a permit." The linked article is well footnoted.

This is contrasted with only Vermont allowing residents to carry a concealed firearm without a permit just a decade ago.

Furthermore, one might argue that the Heller and resultant McDonald (and lower court decisions springing from Heller/McDonald) was positively influenced by the increasing statutory recognition of the right to an effective self-defense. Also, the 5 States that have moved to constitutional carry have done so with ever increasing statutory ability to carry a gun in public. Certainly whatever may have influenced it, Heller and McDonald represent significant wins for RKBA. No longer can the gun grabbers argue that the 2nd amendment only applies to the militia. They are reduced to trying to salvage "reasonable limits" on ownership, possession, and use.

Will anyone deny these significant improvements in RKBA?

While permits are not perfect recognition of rights, they are steps in the correct direction and we have a 30 year history of States moving from bans on effectively carrying guns in public for self-defense, toward permitting the effective public possession of guns with permits, to non-discriminatory issuance of permits, and to permit-free statutory recognition of the RKBA.

Permits have also greatly increased the number of persons who carry firearms, increasing public acceptance, and providing solid evidence that guns in large numbers of private hands does not lead to blood in the streets. The entire nation can point to Utah's nearly 15 year history of protecting teachers and other public school employees in their right (or non-discriminatory permited privilege if you want to engage in unnecessary semantics) to carry firearms on the job. I nearly 15 years of preventing school districts from imposing gun bans or anti-gun employment policies on those with permits we've exactly one incident involving the lawful possession of a gun: exactly one ND resulting in a dead toilet in the teachers' lounge and some minor injury from porcelain shrapnel to the carrier's leg.

Our opponents did not undermine our rights in one fell swoop. They spent the better part of a century on it with limits on machine guns and short barreled shot guns in the 30s, removing shooting from public school and college PE classes in the 60s and 70s, with bans on mail-order and interstate gun purchases in the late 60s, bans on any new machine guns in the late 80s / early 90s, and the low point of the scary looking gun ban in the mid 90s. This all on top of centuries old slave codes and then jim crow laws that targeted blacks but with the civil rights movement were applied to everyone, or at least to everyone not well enough connected to get a discriminatory permit.

In 30 years we've made tremendous progress in both statute, court rules, and public perception. I recall (no I won't go dig up a citation) that in the 80s and prior most gun owners were either hunters or at least had grown up hunting. Today, I believe most gun owners are not hunters but own guns for self-defense and other non-hunting purposes. A couple of decades ago the pro-RKBA community was deeply concerned (and the gun haters rejoicing) that the reduction in hunting, increased urbanization, might be foretelling the end of widespread gun ownership as a cultural aspect of this nation. Today, urban ownership of firearms all but guarantees not only firearms ownership, but the carrying of firearms for defensive purposes as a culturally, judicially, and legally accepted part of our society.

There are relatively few congressional districts left where overt hostility to RKBA doesn't result in a loss. The attacks on our RKBA continue no doubt. But our opponents have had to shift from frontal assaults to backdoor attacks involving mental health, "common sense" background checks, and trying to increase the long list of felonies with their lifetime bans, along with executive actions intended to drive up the cost of ammo or limit imports.

Another 10 years, maybe 20, and I expect our effective ability to legally carry guns for self defense will not longer require nearly the hassles it does today. We will no more "win" this fight than society will ever "win" the debate over the limits of the 1st amendment. But at this point a man can, with modest effort to obtain a couple of permits, legally carry his gun for self defense over the vast majority of the USA. In a growing number of areas, no permit is needed. And in the last few holdouts against any effective self-defense, court decisions are helping to force needed change. Slower than we'd like. But the direction of change is clear.

Do I over-state or mis-state the progress we've made or the current situation vis-a-vie RKBA?

Charles
 

WalkingWolf

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Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, Vermont

Vermont, and Alaska has allowed carry without a permit for longer than what your claim is. Arkansas only allows unpermitted carry outside of ones home county. For the most part in recent years privileges have made huge strides. Rights have not, IMO a privilege is not a right. The state still requires that every citizen ask permission before they can obtain a firearm from a dealer. Some states have banned hi cap magazines and certain guns. And some states now require BC for all gun transfers.

So I call BS!
 

utbagpiper

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My words have precisely zero meaning but that which you ascribe to them.

Noted that by your own admission, your words are meaningless.

And, yes, Charles, I am unremittingly hostile to a form of "contract" which could, by ratchet effect, bind the entire country into perpetuity. If you want to pretend that HOAs are purely a legitimate extension of contract rights, with absolutely no flaws, then you need to reform that potentiality first. As it stands, more communities are bound by HOAs which nominally should exist forever than ever have been in the past, and your specious claim that this is nothing more than a result of market demand is strongly contradicted by the fact that basically every homeowner who isn't actively on their HOA board opposes their HOA.


I myself have yet to meet a single individual, other than perhaps yourself, who favors their HOA and is not also on its board.)

Frankly, your HOA apologia would be far more convincing if it was honest about its utilitarian motivations. Pretending that contract rights are the baby in the HOA bathwater is rather dishonest, in my estimation. I understand the appeal to contract rights is intended to be strong with a libertarian audience, but most of us didn't have in mind inter-generational ratchets when we decided that contracting was a right.

Interestingly, I've never owned property in an HOA. NEVER. Nor have I ever been a member of an HOA.

I've never found an HOA with rules I found agreeable. Every HOA I've ever seen appears to be targeted toward urbanites who care way too much about the color of stucco or trim and not nearly enough about aspects of land usage that I think actually affect the culture of a neighborhood.

So I've never purchased any property subject to an HOA.

But I observe that a lot of people do choose to buy homes subject to an HOA. From what data I've seen locally, homes subject to city zoning sell for more than homes of similar size and condition less than a block away not subject to city zoning. And homes subject to HOAs tend to sell for more than similar homes nearby outside the HOA.

I suspect that most people like the idea of mutual limits on property usage and then get upset when they are not granted exemptions to violate the one rule they find disagreeable.

Whatever the case, I support the right of others to establish HOAs, to modify them by the rules of the HOA, to abolish them by those same rules. If the HOA is offensive, it will drive down property values and all the owners will have incentive to make needed changes, eventually.

If there are groups of people who really care very much about pink flamingos on front lawns what do I care if they get together and create HOAs with rules to prevent that? Ditto if there are groups who want to create HOA rules allowing nude use of the community swimming pool. Or any other silly restriction. So long as contracts are freely entered into and do not cross the line into violating public policy nor shock the conscience (no contracts to sell your own heart before you die naturally), why should I care if others want to impose silly rules on themselves? I'm not going to buy a home subject to such silly rules. But clearly, lots of others will. And then some of them will complain about the rules. Frankly, I have little sympathy for them.

Charles
 

utbagpiper

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Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, Vermont

Vermont, and Alaska has allowed carry without a permit for longer than what your claim is. Arkansas only allows unpermitted carry outside of ones home county. For the most part in recent years privileges have made huge strides. Rights have not, IMO a privilege is not a right. The state still requires that every citizen ask permission before they can obtain a firearm from a dealer. Some states have banned hi cap magazines and certain guns. And some states now require BC for all gun transfers.

So I call BS!

Alaska passed their constitutional carry bill in 2003. Which means it has been in effect for 11 years and 4 months. So yes, that is 16 months longer than the "decade" term I used. Prior to 11 years and 4 months ago, only Vermont did not criminalize the concealed carrying a gun in public sans permit. Better?

I don't believe that minor time difference makes any material difference to my observations in this case. Are you just nitpicking? Or did you have some other aspect of Alaskan law in mind?

You are entitled to your opinion. But, I believe that in both practical ability to carry a gun for self defense, as well as in recognition of rights (additional States respecting constitutional carry and a couple of critical SCOTUS rulings), the RKBA has made great progress.

Yes, there are a few death rattles from gun hating, urbanized States trying to cling to discrimination in who can legally carry a gun, or even imposing some new restrictions on transfers. But a growing number of States are moving ever closer to respecting RKBA as a full right and the vast majority now have statutory recognition allowing the practical exercise of an effective self-defense in public. I think the evidence is clear that advances in permitted privileges to carry guns are leading to actual recognition of permit free rights to carry firearms.

Charles
 

WalkingWolf

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--Deleted by mod-- ...but privileges are not rights. What the state givith the state can easily take away.

IMO people who think that state provided privileges are rights are indeed statists.
 
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twoskinsonemanns

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Though my post was of a specific incident, my "oppression" statement was really meant to be more general.
It's a culmination of government control as a whole not just the increase in police power/abuse.
The crazy taxation. The relentless bans without any need for justification. The increase in surveillance and citizen tracking. The draconian regulation and licensing. The blatant and open disregard for privacy and general freedom as long as it's in the name of "security".
 

marshaul

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If there are groups of people who really care very much about pink flamingos on front lawns what do I care if they get together and create HOAs with rules to prevent that? Ditto if there are groups who want to create HOA rules allowing nude use of the community swimming pool. Or any other silly restriction. So long as contracts are freely entered into and do not cross the line into violating public policy nor shock the conscience (no contracts to sell your own heart before you die naturally), why should I care if others want to impose silly rules on themselves? I'm not going to buy a home subject to such silly rules. But clearly, lots of others will. And then some of them will complain about the rules. Frankly, I have little sympathy for them.

I agree that, as a personal matter, the best thing is simply to not buy a home with an HOA attached. And I do agree that individuals have a right to agree with other individuals not to have pink flamingos in their yards.

But I continue to dispute the fundamental validity of the "consent" behind most real-world HOAs, as well as the inherent validity of contracts which attach themselves to things (especially things of infinite duration and finite supply, such as land) rather than people. As a result I dispute your contention that HOAs are no more than a pure, innocent extension of harmless natural rights. The mere semantic conception of a "homeowners association" does indeed have a defensible basis in right in some theoretical manner divorced from reality, but where real-world HOAs exceed this defensible basis is where my problem begins.

Again: inter-generational ratcheting. The possibility must necessary follow from certain forms of contracts (HOAs being the obvious example). I submit that inter-generational ratchets (which eventually forcibly include everybody) are on their face an outcome incompatible with right, and that therefore the ability to enter into contracts which imply the possibility of such an outcome cannot be a right. You're as free as I to decide exactly how to differentiate these facially invalid contracts from the rest (I admit I don't have a satisfactory criterion, at least yet), or of course to continue to ignore the "fully ratcheted outcome" and/or implicitly deny its invalidity.
 
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