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Man Arrested For Carrying Gun into South Lansing Meijer

ManInBlack

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How about where a City/Township/Village/etc has established Voting at a Private Property with a Public Accommodation Location?

Voting is a government function, and when private property agrees to serve as an agent of government, as in the case of allowing a polling place to be established, they do give up some rights. This is a different case entirely from private property being used for private business functions.

You see no difference between Private Property and Private Property with a Public Accommodation?

"Public accommodation?" It is only public if it allows itself to act as an agent of the government. Otherwise, it allows only certain members of the public in (those who have business to transact, or the potential for such), for a very narrow purpose (to transact business). Loiterers, bums, those who cause a disturbance, and those whom the owner just doesn't think belong on his property should be able to be thrown out at will.

You believe that a person can be deprived of their Right to Life on Private Property with a Public Accommodation?

If you are asked to leave a private business, and do not, the owner should be able to use whatever force necessary to remove you. If you lose your life in the process, you weren't deprived of your right to it; you voluntarily chose to stay on property where you had no right to be.
 
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PDinDetroit

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SE, Michigan, USA
Voting is a government function, and when private property agrees to serve as an agent of government, as in the case of allowing a polling place to be established, they do give up some rights. This is a different case entirely from private property being used for private business functions.

"Public accommodation?" It is only public if it allows itself to act as an agent of the government. Otherwise, it allows only certain members of the public in (those who have business to transact, or the potential for such), for a very narrow purpose (to transact business). Loiterers, bums, those who cause a disturbance, and those whom the owner just doesn't think belong on his property should be able to be thrown out at will.

If you are asked to leave a private business, and do not, the owner should be able to use whatever force necessary to remove you. If you lose your life in the process, you weren't deprived of your right to it; you voluntarily chose to stay on property where you had no right to be.

When Private Property Owners decide to do Business with the Public, they invite the Public to come onto their Private Property to transact Business and therefore create a Public Accommodation in some shape or form. The Private Property Owners give up some rights to Manage their property as they see fit for this Public Accommodation. One such area is in for Racial Limitations, where Blacks were denied access at one time but are not today.

If Private Property Owners truly had the Rights you purport, they would not have to ask anyone to leave, they could simply deprive them of the Right to Life at any point and for any reason they determine.

There must be a balance between the Rights of a Person and Private Property Rights, else we have nothing better than what was in place during the time of Lord and Vassals.
 

ManInBlack

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When Private Property Owners decide to do Business with the Public, they invite the Public to come onto their Private Property to transact Business and therefore create a Public Accommodation in some shape or form. The Private Property Owners give up some rights to Manage their property as they see fit for this Public Accommodation.

That's an interesting theory. Allowing bona fide customers to come onto a property to transact business is not creating a public accommodation. A true public accommodation would be a national forest, owned by the government, a theoretically-public entity, run with public funds, and open to all the public for any lawful purpose.

One such area is in for Racial Limitations, where Blacks were denied access at one time but are not today.

That was a blatantly unconstitutional ruling, as any true scholar of the document will tell you.

If Private Property Owners truly had the Rights you purport, they would not have to ask anyone to leave, they could simply deprive them of the Right to Life at any point and for any reason they determine.

Lol, no. Where did I ever say private property owners could deprive anyone of rights? All I said is that if you feel that your rights are being violated by the conditions set by the property owner, you are free to leave, and remove the violation; therefore, you aren't truly being deprived of rights. Government and government employees are the only entities that can deprive a citizen of his rights, because they are the only entities with whom a citizen is [unfortunately] forced to interact.

I also never said that property owners could shoot people for any reason. I did say that private property owners should be able to use whatever force necessary to eject interlopers after said interlopers have been made aware they are not welcome.

There must be a balance between the Rights of a Person and Private Property Rights, else we have nothing better than what was in place during the time of Lord and Vassals.

Wrong. Back in feudal times, vassals did not have the option to leave the authority of their feudal lord, making their situation analogous to our own vis-a-vis the government. You do, at all times, have the ability to leave the authority of a private property owner and reassert your full and free constitutional rights simply by LEAVING the private property.

Example:
The Constitution forbids the government from restricting your freedom of speech. When it comes to clothing, courts have generally ruled that you can wear whatever you want in public, regardless of how offensive it may be. Now, if you go to a nice restaurant with a black-tie dress code wearing your "F*** America" t-shirt, they are fully within their rights to throw you out. The restaurant is not a public accommodation open to just anyone for any purpose. It is for certain members of the public (those who can afford the meal) to conduct business (buying the meal) while abiding by the requirements of the property owner (dress code). You also have to obey their other regulations, like not bringing in your own alcohol (or paying a fee to do so), or refraining from loud, vulgar language.

The above analogy can be equally applied to the Second Amendment and any other business.
 
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ManInBlack

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Open carry is more of a first amendment issue (for CPL holders) than a second amendment issue.

Perhaps, although not always. A CPL is needed to do many things that go along with normal self-defense, such as carrying loaded in a vehicle.

Either way, as pointed out above, private businesses can, do, and should be able to restrict your First Amendment rights when on their property, as well. The Constitution limits only the government.
 

PDinDetroit

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A 21-year-old Haslett man was arraigned today on several charges after police said he was seen possibly loading a handgun in a Meijer parking lot and later was found inside the store with the gun.

Dustin Lewis Myers is charged with carrying a concealed weapon, carrying a weapon with unlawful intent, attempted resisting/obstructing a police officer and possession of marijuana, officials said. He was arrainged today in 54A District Court. Bond was set at $15,000.

Police were called at about 1 p.m. Sunday to the Meijer store, located at 6200 South Pennsylvania Avenue, by security who spotted a man kneeling in the parking lot and possibly loading a gun, said Lansing police Public Information Officer Robert Merritt.

Officers located Myers after he entered the store, and found the gun in a backpack, He did not have a permit to carry the gun, Merritt said.

http://www.lansingstatejournal.com/...1-who-brought-gun-into-Lansing-Meijer-charged
 
B

Bikenut

Guest
Interesting discussion.... allow me to muddy the waters a bit more....

Fictitious scenario purely as an example follows.

Businessman "Joe" owns a lot, builds a building, and opens a store selling groceries. He then puts up a sign "Joe's Grocery Store" and opens his doors as a passive invitation for folks to come in and buy his groceries.

However... aside from the government mandated things "Joe" can't legally prohibit in his store ... "Joe" has a list of things that are not allowed in his store. Let's say guns are one of them. And "Joe" uses signs or whatever to notify the public of his no guns rule.... now... here comes the mud...

When a person enters the store... does the person, by accepting the invitation to enter by entering, enter into a contract to abide by the rules stipulated by "Joe"? Could entering be considered acceptance of a contract to abide by any stipulations attached to... entering?

Because if accepting the invitation to enter can be considered entering into a contract with the property owner then... the property owner isn't restricting the rights of the person who voluntarily agreed to the restrictions inherent in the contract. The person who voluntarily agreed to the restrictions is the one who is restricting their own rights... by their own choice.

Ok... now.... I am NOT an attorney.. I do NOT have any idea how the contract laws work... and I'm actually asking whether or not entering a business means entering into a contract, an agreement, with the business owner.
 

stainless1911

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Perhaps, although not always. A CPL is needed to do many things that go along with normal self-defense, such as carrying loaded in a vehicle.

Either way, as pointed out above, private businesses can, do, and should be able to restrict your First Amendment rights when on their property, as well. The Constitution limits only the government.

A person with a CPL hs the option (in most cases) to CC if they choose. A CPL holder OCing, is exercising his 1st amendment rights specifically.
 

ManInBlack

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A person with a CPL hs the option (in most cases) to CC if they choose. A CPL holder OCing, is exercising his 1st amendment rights specifically.

I was basically saying that an avid OC'er, who OCs for tactical reasons or whatever, will most likely get a CPL in a state like Michigan that requires it to do normal activities like driving and visiting certain places while armed.
 

PDinDetroit

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I was basically saying that an avid OC'er, who OCs for tactical reasons or whatever, will most likely get a CPL in a state like Michigan that requires it to do normal activities like driving and visiting certain places while armed.

Stainless will have to wait awhile for that possibility again...
 

dukenukum

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Jun 22, 2008
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Location
Lansing, Michigan, USA
I have open carried at the store in question many times with no problem. Since they no longer welcome a armed Law abiding citizen they no longer welcome My money.
 

HKcarrier

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Mar 9, 2011
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michigan
I have open carried at the store in question many times with no problem. Since they no longer welcome a armed Law abiding citizen they no longer welcome My money.




Dude was CCing an illegal gun without a CPL.. Nothing to do with OC. Don't yank your patronage just yet
 

MJ0865

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Apr 16, 2012
Messages
1
Location
Michigan
just to help set some facts this is what i could type as i was listening to a police scanner,
it appears he was not open carrying, and may have committed other crimes as well

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for the south-end units on a weapons complaint at meijer 6200 s penn
6200 s penn at the meijers they have a subject there that is outside of the bulding
he is kneeling down loading a handgun units to start that way command clear
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units enroute to meijer he is now walking into the store with a loaded handgun were
going to get a discription for you
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ok you can let security know mabye they can get him on camera
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white male black jacket black pants
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he walked in side but he is now outside by the grochery exit
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employee called in they had a subject walking in the store with a loaded gun he is
not outside the crochery exit possibly putting it in his backpack
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white male black jacket black pants green backpack brown hair
he has not threatned any one with it
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for the units responding to meijer our caller can see his hands he has nothing in his hands
right now
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pretty sure that he put the gun in the backpack and is now walking back inside the store
he came outside and is now going back in
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he's outside walking east near the grochery doors near the bulding units hold air until we get status
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he just bolted into the store
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10-4 units priority 13
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he went to the garden doors
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11 you said he went into the garden doors
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he was (inaudiable) out toward the west end
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ok
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where is he headed
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toward the west entrance
the west side of the bulding garden side
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is he in the store or out of the store
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did he make it out side the store
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he is bolting out in and out the store when he sees pd
not quite sure what we have yet but there going to try evacuate the meijer
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5 im aurelius and miller ill satart that way
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57 in route
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five charlie one are you clear on my request
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i am
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ok
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56 im clear ill be by the at the ne corner by the gas station
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he's in the green house hiding
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10-4
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ok have them set up a parameter
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K9 is enroute wants to know if he is contained into the green house
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can i get the description again please
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13-19
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subject is secure at meijer 13-19
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K9 (Dog Barking) 10-4
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13 we have the firearm
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