Local Norfolk Chatter....how do we keep the correct news on top?

[Grapeshot]

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mpolo79 wrote:

If a gun store employee advocates unlawfully concealing a weapon instead of open carry, personally I think they ought to be fired and gun owners should take their business elsewhere.

It is very dangerous to think about flirting with the law like that., I would love to see people have the right to conceal carry anywhere without a permit but unfortunately the law simply isn't on our side on that issue. At least not yet.

Maybe it will be someday. Small steps. We're making progress.

It's very foolish to expose yourself to criminal prosecution and become economically crippled for the rest of your life with a criminal record. Every time you apply for a job, you will have to reveal that you have been convicted of a crime. And it's not just a crime, but a FIREARMS related crime. Not good.

Unlawful? Where in this thread did a store employee recommend unlawful carry?

I think you are reading too much into it. For someone to say that they prefer CC to OC on no way indicates advocating an illegal action.

If they suggested driving rather than walking would they be quilty of the same misconduct? Both driving and CC require a licence from the state and no one recommends doing either in violation of the law.

Yata hey

 

[Grapeshot]

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bayboy42 wrote:

snip..... In my case, I indirectly experienced such a situationand used the court's internet database to set the record straight regarding what he was charged with. The only thing I was looking for was alternate suggestions on how to make sure the real story is heard.

Try as you did to respond with correct facts.

In the final analysis where the larger public and press are concerned, there are but few effective things that can be done without having a fair and unbiased listener.

The results i.e. court decision will speak louder than anything we as individuals may say or think.

Yata hey

 

[TFred]

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Just FYI (I've never even heard of this store before now, so I really don't have any particular interest), here's the post with the illegal CC reference. It was back on page 1.

TFred

darthmord wrote (Posted: Tue Oct 21st, 2008 12:30 pm):

That is correct. I was given a tirade by one guy (description: about 5'7", balding, always wears a baseball cap, thin mustache, looks slightly hunched) about open carry and that I'd be associated with the rest of the low life scum who can't conceal carry.

Then he passed me off to Scotty (who is a nice guy) and he went off politely about open carry being a bad idea. He also indicated to me that he'd rather conceal carry in violation of the law than open carry because of the hassle involved.

The first guy kept badgering me about what I would do if someone starts berating me about open carrying. The funny thing is... he never realized I was doing just that. Letting the guy who was hysterical about open carry speak all he wanted. He wasn't getting under my skin. I sure as hell was NOT going to draw on him (no imminent threat).

Ultimately, we purchased our holsters (Blackhawk) and left.

So far, my worst open carry experience has been AT A GUN STORE.:cuss::banghead:

 

[darthmord]

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Grape, as was shown, yes I was encouraged to illegally conceal carry rather than open carry and get hassled. That bothered me a bit and has continued to bother me that I was encouraged to take such actions after I said I would prefer to be legal carrying.

It pissed my wife off enough that she left the store without saying a word. She was venting out in the parking lot.

As such, I'll talk with Bob about it when I next go down there.

 

[Grapeshot]

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darthmord wrote:

Grape, as was shown, yes I was encouraged to illegally conceal carry rather than open carry and get hassled. That bothered me a bit and has continued to bother me that I was encouraged to take such actions after I said I would prefer to be legal carrying.

It pissed my wife off enough that she left the store without saying a word. She was venting out in the parking lot.

As such, I'll talk with Bob about it when I next go down there.

Ok I see how you understood the remark(s) now. Guess I didn't initially see this as advocating for others but more venting his personal opinion - not that he would be right and not that I would have liked it either.

Immediate direct interaction with the owner would have been most benefitial - hind sight 20/20 right?

Yata hey

 

[DonTreadOnMe]

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mpolo79 wrote:

If a gun store employee advocates unlawfully concealing a weapon instead of open carry, personally I think they ought to be fired and gun owners should take their business elsewhere.

It is very dangerous to think about flirting with the law like that., I would love to see people have the right to conceal carry anywhere without a permit but unfortunately the law simply isn't on our side on that issue. At least not yet.

Maybe it will be someday. Small steps. We're making progress.

It's very foolish to expose yourself to criminal prosecution and become economically crippled for the rest of your life with a criminal record. Every time you apply for a job, you will have to reveal that you have been convicted of a crime. And it's not just a crime, but a FIREARMS related crime. Not good.

You think that is bad, I had an instructor of a class I was taking to meet my CHP requirements say opencarry was a bad idea and he said he was, "against it.". He said he would never opencarry himself even in a Virginia restaurant/bar with an abc permit. He said that makes him an 'outlaw' sometimes, but his practice was to conceal at all times, even if opencarry is the only legal way in some places. He never specifically told the students to violate the law, but made clear that was how he handled the Va. Restaurant law issue. :banghead: Infact, he called himself regarding how he carried as an 'outlaw' 3 or 4 times.

I made notes when I got home on what he said. They will be very close to his exact wording, but are from memory. So, consider them more acurate than the avg. reporter from the pilot, but less than a voice recording. Perhaps traffic stops are not the only time one should have a recorder.

Instructor: "same for restaurants, I dont open carry, if its concealed....who knows you have it! I am sometimes an outlaw as I said, but I am not going to opencarry. You can opencarry....that's the law. (looks over at person I took the class with, who had a VCDL shirt on) You open carry?

We said: "yes"

Instructor: "That is your right. That is the only way you can legally carry into a bar or restaurants that that has an abc licence. I am not going to tell you not to do it...but I am not going to let a bad guy know I am carrying. So, I carry concealed anywhere there is not a metal detector."

He also told the class you cant opencarry in a vehicle. :banghead:

Instructor: "You cant opencarry in a vehicle, without a conceal handgun permit, you can only have it locked up in the car, going to and from a range, unloaded...but you cant open carry in the vehicle".

Me: "That is not my understanding..."

Instructor: "Your talking about the letter of the law, I can tell you of lots of people that know you can get into trouble doing that, big trouble....but I am not telling to do something or not do something. Your 3 times 7....you make the call. You have to store it unloaded and secured in trunk away from ammo and not expect you wont get into trouble....but your an adult."

He also made references to Dan's trouble in norfolk and the VCDL and OpenCarry. He was critical off all of the three.

The Instructor said regarding the VCDL, "The VCDL they are big on opencarry" *kind of a roll of the eyes expression* Points to my companion in the class who was taking the class with me with the VCDL shirt and said, "Dont get me wrong they have done a lot for gun owners. I am not for opencarry, but it is your right. I just think its a bad idea and I am against it, but it is your right. Your 3 times 7." I can only guess what he would have said if there was not two members unmistakeably in the class.

Later in the class the Instructor brought up Dan and said arrogance played a role in the encounter. "Norfolk paid that guy....what's name....Dan! ...a check, but they did not learn...and they wont. ...anyone here got law enforcement in there family? You think they will stop making Dans life difficult? And with Dan, arrogance came into play and he was looking for trouble I guess. I don't know him, but that is what I gather. Now he is in trouble again. I think he will win...but in the end he wont! They will see to it...in the end he will lose one. They will see he does not enjoy that money."

His last comment sums it up in reference to the VCDL and Opencarry people.

Instructor: "Well, I think they, you guys do more good than harm...." (As he is saying this to person I was taking the class with he is half rolling his eyes at her as if to be funny) After the class he came back up and repeated them...but this time seamed to be trying to be more sincere, said he likes to kid people.

I felt he made comments that were out of line, flat wrong, and improper. Being a firearms instructor makes it 10 times worst in my opinion.:cuss:

In retrospect I feel bad that I did not simply walk out, but I was talking the class with someone else and did not wish to put her on the spot as well. She seamed to be ok in the class, turned out she was more offended I think. :X

One good thing was the NRA seamed to take my complaint very seriously.




*edited to fix a couple of the worst typos*

 

[vtme_grad98]

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deepdiver wrote:

Robert Marcus joined the forum briefly in May 2008 to dispute vtmegrad's recollection. There were posts made in that thread indicating that perhaps there was a misremembering of who actually made the comment about outlawing OC. Anyone who is interested in the matter, I would strongly suggest you review the previous thread where this arose:

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=10044&forum_id=54&jump_to=175858#p175858

I don't have a dog in this fight as I am far away from VA and not likely to ever step foot into Bob's Gun Shop. I just do not want to see a man's reputation negatively impacted on this forum without linking to prior discussion of the matter, his personal defense as to these comments and other's defense of him.

I've been in Bob's enough to be fairly confident that I know which staff are which in there. If someone has a picture of Bob, since they don't have photos on their website for which staff are which, I'd be willing to adjust my confidence about Bob saying that appropriately.

The only people in the first floor that day were myself, the other customer, and the man that I've always believed to be Robert. I am 100% confident about what I heard that day, but only very confident that I am correct about which person is Robert. I would like to add that I'm far more confident that I know which person at "Bob's" is actually Bob than I am that the "RobertMarcus" screen name is actually Robert Marcus. Also, if I had any confidence at all that Robert actually posted that, I'd be perfectly willing to walk into Bob's, verify the identity of the one I believe to be Bob, and then call him a lying %$^^%$ to his face if I am right. Conversely, if I'm wrong about which person is Bob, I'll post a big old correction on here.

Normally I ignore responses to my posts, and I especially try to avoid posting anything in a thread that isn't at least slightly related to the original post (my earlier post was just to give another example of anti-gun sentiments at the store).

 

[darthmord]

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vtme,

Bob is the shorter (5' 5" or so), heavy set white guy, balding w/ white hair. Walks with a bit of a limp. Talks rather southern (sentences a bit drawn out to my northern ears).

Scotty is the chipper, clean shaven, silvery-grey hair, often wears glasses. White but is rather tanned in appearance. Moves about a mile a second. Always asks if you have bought a gun in the last 30 days and then says "Why the hell not?" when you answer no.

TJ is the younger guy, age in late 20s, almost always has a ball cap, reddish blonde hair iirc, stands about 5' 7" tall. White with some freckles. Outgoing, personable, & laid back demeanor.

There's another gentleman, older (mid 50s), balding, has grey bushy mustache. Rather quiet. Stands about 6', thin build. Typically works on the range.

Debbie, the only female I've seen working there. Should be self explanatory. I always find her on the ammo floor or on the first floor (when she's leaving for the day).

The guy who encouraged me to never open carry (because is tactically unsound, get associated with BGs / low-life scum, should wear concealed even when law says OC only, etc)... stands about 5'7" tall, stockier build, shaved bald, thin wirey mustache, metal rim glasses,usually seen wearing a red collared shirt and ball cap. When he talks, it's usually with force / presence as though his words are weapons.

Steve Dowdy, instructor. Cool guy, doesn't really appear to rock the boat. He's short (5'5"-ish), light brown hair. Clean shaven, usually impeccably dressed. Very professional in appearance. Doesn't wear glasses. I'd guess his age to be mid-late 30s.

They did have a new hire recently but I've only seen him once on the range floor and Bob was giving him orientation. I've not seen him since.

I do know from talking with Bob that if one were to insult him, he'd ignore you after wishing you a good day. He has never come across as one to tolerate boorish behavior.

 

[vtme_grad98]

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vtme_grad98 wrote:

deepdiver wrote:

Robert Marcus joined the forum briefly in May 2008 to dispute vtmegrad's recollection. There were posts made in that thread indicating that perhaps there was a misremembering of who actually made the comment about outlawing OC. Anyone who is interested in the matter, I would strongly suggest you review the previous thread where this arose:

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=10044&forum_id=54&jump_to=175858#p175858

I don't have a dog in this fight as I am far away from VA and not likely to ever step foot into Bob's Gun Shop. I just do not want to see a man's reputation negatively impacted on this forum without linking to prior discussion of the matter, his personal defense as to these comments and other's defense of him.

I've been in Bob's enough to be fairly confident that I know which staff are which in there. If someone has a picture of Bob, since they don't have photos on their website for which staff are which, I'd be willing to adjust my confidence about Bob saying that appropriately.

The only people in the first floor that day were myself, the other customer, and the man that I've always believed to be Robert. I am 100% confident about what I heard that day, but only very confident that I am correct about which person is Robert. I would like to add that I'm far more confident that I know which person at "Bob's" is actually Bob than I am that the "RobertMarcus" screen name is actually Robert Marcus. Also, if I had any confidence at all that Robert actually posted that, I'd be perfectly willing to walk into Bob's, verify the identity of the one I believe to be Bob, and then call him a lying %$^^%$ to his face if I am right. Conversely, if I'm wrong about which person is Bob, I'll post a big old correction on here.

Normally I ignore responses to my posts, and I especially try to avoid posting anything in a thread that isn't at least slightly related to the original post (my earlier post was just to give another example of anti-gun sentiments at the store).

Amusingly enough, Bob happened to be on the news today because of the arrest at their store. Bob is the person that said to me and another customer that "they need to outlaw that open carry crap". I stand by that, and if anyone claiming to be Bob wants to claim otherwise, I'll walk right into that store and call Bob a liar right to his fat face.

 

[GLENGLOCKER]

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darthmord wrote:

Grape, as was shown, yes I was encouraged to illegally conceal carry rather than open carry and get hassled. That bothered me a bit and has continued to bother me that I was encouraged to take such actions after I said I would prefer to be legal carrying.

It pissed my wife off enough that she left the store without saying a word. She was venting out in the parking lot.

As such, I'll talk with Bob about it when I next go down there.

Then he passed me off to Scotty (who is a nice guy) and he went off politely about open carry being a bad idea. He also indicated to me that he'd rather conceal carry in violation of the law than open carry because of the hassle involved.


I wouldn't say you were encouraged to open carry. He said that he would rather CC in violation of the law then to OC. He stated an opinion that I'm not in disagreement with.

 

[darthmord]

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Glen, unfortunately transcribing such things to text you lose out on context and non-verbal communications. There was a definite encouragement that I should do the same based on mannerisms and the way/how things were said.

Perhaps he was just stating his own opinion and that I was reading too much into what was said. I am human, I could have made a mistake in understanding. But it's not the first time I've heard the spiel about "OC bad! CC Good!". I've been told by the same people I should never OC.

Personally, I'd rather be legal and inconvenienced than illegal and find myself in jail. Murphy is really good about making things go wrong in the worst possible way at the worst possible time with the worst possible results. I'd rather open carry in a restaurant than CC only to have a LEO (who knows the law) accidentally see my CC weapon and then open up a can of trouble for me.

 

[LRS76251]

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The names of the employees at Bob's are Robert, Steve, TJ, Scotty, Dick, and Keith (sales floor), Sam does the FFL logging and does estimates, etc for estate sales, etc (or at least used to), Debbie is on the ammo floor, and Barry typically runs the range. I'm not sure who the new gunsmith is but the one they had there for years now works for Brownells. They are all good people and I've known them all for years. Its hard to imagine that some of the comments I've read here would have actually been stated by any of them. If anything, they were expressing their opinions which they are entitled to express, just as the rest of us can too. Some people tend to get too wrapped around the axle over a trivial point at times and things get a little out of hand. However, we have all been guilty of that at one time or another. I think arguing over this is kinda silly. There are bigger fish to fry. The guys at Bob's are on the gun owner's side. Let's NOT look stupid by arguing over trivial matters. Honestly, I can understand the feeling of those who would rather conceal vs carry openly in a restaurant. Personally, I think the mandatory OC around booze is stupid. I conceal carry in restaurants and bars all the time and nobody has even questioned me about it. However, it wouldn't matter anyways because I'm a LEO so that particular part doesn't apply to me. I don't go around making it known that I'm a LEO either while in public and not working because its nobody's business what I do for a living unless somebody commits a crime in front of my face. Then THEY will find out firsthand. I don't leave my house without my gun and it goes where I go.....anywhere and everywhere, no exceptions.