LEOs Unlawfully Confiscate Your Pistol: What Would You Do?

[DrTodd]

What if its something non OC, like doing donuts in a snowy parking lot. If the cop sees you, and you stonewall him, hes going to give you a reckless driving. If you talk to him, he might give you a careless, or let you plea the reckless down in court later.

No, I wasnt doing donuts in a parking lot in the snow.

Never lie. Don't get me wrong, initially I'm very friendly. It all depends what is asked and how.

 

[stainless1911]

^ and ^^ Can't argue with that.

 

[Haman J.T.]

You should send the copy of the recording to MCOLES (who pays the insurance for these guys, yes? If not MCOLES -- whoever they are insured through). I'm sure they'd be happy to know the local PD's attitude about being sued. Do it

Getting complaints on the record provides a paper trail.Doing nothing allows them to continue their violations of our fellow law abiding citizens!Do nothing-get nothing!Thats what cowards do!Patriots fight for their Rights!

 

[DrTodd]

Getting complaints on the record provides a paper trail.

Not only that, you express the seriousness of the situation. Can you imagine how many times a day a cop hears that they are violating a person's rights... even when following the letter and spirit of the law. By documenting the interaction properly with official correspondence and video or audio, not only does it eliminate the he said/she said problem, it also shows the cop that you truly know your rights and are going to follow through on making sure that the officers are held to the proper standard.

 

[MAC702]

No, Michigan does NOT allow someone to cover the serial #.


MCL750.230 Firearms; altering, removing, or obliterating marks of identity; presumption.

Sec. 230.

A person who shall wilfully alter, remove, or obliterate the name of the maker, model, manufacturer's number, or other mark of identity of a pistol or other firearm, shall be guilty of a felony, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 2 years or fine of not more than $1,000.00. Possession of a firearm upon which the number shall have been altered, removed, or obliterated, other than an antique firearm as defined by section 231a(2)(a) or (b), shall be presumptive evidence that the possessor has altered, removed, or obliterated the same.

I don't follow how putting a piece of tape over a serial number is "altering, removing, or obliterating." It is none of those things. Like the other guy said, a holster would do the same thing. It is the slap in the face of the detaining officer that you have to worry about, not breaking an actual law.

Remember, LEO is a title, not a job description.

 

[stainless1911]

To the LEO, its an identity, and for some, the law is their religion.

 

[alphamale]

As I was told by a DPD officer on this matter the only way it will change is if someone "sues the hell out of the City of Detroit" oh and he is 110% pro gun rights.

I can foresee my next stop with the DPD while on foot. I won’t able to play hardball and refuse to identify myself without reasonable suspicion of a crime. Why not? Here in Michigan we have to register our pistols. If a lawful citizen refuses to I.D. themselves LEOs will just take the pistol(s) (which they usually do at the outset of a Terry Stop), run the serial number and thus backhandedly identify you. They then emerge from the squad car and ask if you are the person to whom the gun is registered. If you still refuse, I can totally envison your typical DPD LEO will saying "Ok fine, if you ever want to see your guns again you’ll have to come down to the station and present some I.D." then drive off with your pistols. At which point you’ll be given an administrative run around and it may take weeks or months to recover your handguns.

So I ask all of you now before it happens, how would you handle such a situation?

 

[alphamale]

Pays the insurance?

Cities like Detroit are self insured I was lead to believe.

Yes they only way is to sue, they get a ton of crap from the top when they have to pay out a law suit, so it works best to sue. sad but effective.

You should send the copy of the recording to MCOLES (who pays the insurance for these guys, yes? If not MCOLES -- whoever they are insured through). I'm sure they'd be happy to know the local PD's attitude about being sued. Do it

 

[DrTodd]

I don't follow how putting a piece of tape over a serial number is "altering, removing, or obliterating." It is none of those things. Like the other guy said, a holster would do the same thing. It is the slap in the face of the detaining officer that you have to worry about, not breaking an actual law.

Remember, LEO is a title, not a job description.

One of the definitions for "obliterate" is "Cause to become invisible or indistinct; blot out." I made the argument you posit a long time ago to a LEO regarding a long-gun issue: "obliterate" implies a sense of permanence to the hiding of the serial #. He disagreed.
Note also Michigan courts have a habit of allowing 4th amendment violations when the officer is acting under "long-standing policy or procedure"*. So basically, if one chooses to cover their firearms serial # with a piece of tape or other covering, this act probably won't stop the LEO from looking and the most likely outcome... even if it is found to be violative of the 4th Amendment... is that the transgression will be allowed. I don't know of any cases that specifically deal with this issue, but I wouldn't use that as affirmation that they will not successfully convict a person under this law.

Cite:
...The Supreme Court recognized that suppressing evidence in cases where the police acted in reasonable reliance on existing precedent
would not effectuate the primary purpose of the exclusionary rule: the deterrence of police
misconduct. Davis, ___ US ___; 131 S Ct at 2432. The Court stated that “the harsh sanction of
exclusion ‘should not be applied to deter objectively reasonable law enforcement activity.’” Id.,
___ US ___; 131 S Ct at 2429, quoting United States v Leon, 468 US 897, 919; 104 S Ct 3405;
82 L Ed 2d 677 (1984).


http://coa.courts.mi.gov/documents/OPINIONS/FINAL/COA/20111110_C295647_49_295647.OPN.PDF

 

[sawah]

Below is the statute that DPD are supposed to adhere to when conducting a stop. I've made copies of this and now carry it around with me. I've grown tired of them creating their authority out of thin air when stopped on the side of the road.


Sec. 43-1-1. - Authority of police officers to stop, question and search suspicious persons.

<snip>

People v. DeFillippo, 80 Mich. App. 197, 262 N.W.2d 921(1977). (This applies to wording of section prior to its revision.)

What do you want to bet that few to no LEOs have actually read this? They don't need to. They just have you take the ride and let the judge sort it out. A pocket full of excuses and stuff keeps them out of court. (officer safety leading the list)

 

[MAC702]

Bummer, Dude.

I guess there is a market for window holsters in your state. I completely agree that you are at the whim of anti-gun cops and pro-cop courts, so I wouldn't recommend to anyone that they try to be a test case. But if it came up, I think the holster argument should weigh heavily in a courtroom. I just don't wish upon any of us the hassle it takes to get there.

 

[Bronson]

One of the definitions for "obliterate" is "Cause to become invisible or indistinct; blot out." I made the argument you posit a long time ago to a LEO regarding a long-gun issue: "obliterate" implies a sense of permanence to the hiding of the serial #. He disagreed.

I have a S&W J frame revolver with the square butt. The s.n. for this gun is stamped on the bottom of the grip frame. The gun, bought used, came with these grips installed.



The grips completely cover the s.n. and the only way to see it is to remove the grips. If I were to carry this setup and an officer attempted to run the # I could be arrested and charged with a felony for "obliterating" the s.n.?

Bronson

 

[stainless1911]

I was wondering about Crimson Trace as well. I've never seen an M&P with them in person, but the SN on those pistols is right about where the lazer sits on some of the other guns I've seen.

 

[griffin]

They just have you take the ride and let the judge sort it out.

How many times have we heard that? Sounds like they don't know what they're doing.

 

[lapeer20m]

I don't follow how putting a piece of tape over a serial number is "altering, removing, or obliterating." It is none of those things. Like the other guy said, a holster would do the same thing. It is the slap in the face of the detaining officer that you have to worry about, not breaking an actual law.

+1

 

[stainless1911]

If that went to a jury trial all it would do, is make the state look bad, and infuriate the jury.

 

[Big Gay Al]

I can foresee my next stop with the DPD while on foot. I won’t able to play hardball and refuse to identify myself without reasonable suspicion of a crime. Why not? Here in Michigan we have to register our pistols. If a lawful citizen refuses to I.D. themselves LEOs will just take the pistol(s) (which they usually do at the outset of a Terry Stop), run the serial number and thus backhandedly identify you. They then emerge from the squad car and ask if you are the person to whom the gun is registered. If you still refuse, I can totally envison your typical DPD LEO will saying "Ok fine, if you ever want to see your guns again you’ll have to come down to the station and present some I.D." then drive off with your pistols. At which point you’ll be given an administrative run around and it may take weeks or months to recover your handguns.

So I ask all of you now before it happens, how would you handle such a situation?

What's their reason for stopping you? If you can get them to say it's because you're open carrying a pistol, just hope you have your voice recorder on. Courts have already said that OC is NOT RAS for a stop. If they continue, then I'd definitely get a good lawyer and sue the pants off them.

 

[cmdr_iceman71]

What's their reason for stopping you? If you can get them to say it's because you're open carrying a pistol, just hope you have your voice recorder on. Courts have already said that OC is NOT RAS for a stop. If they continue, then I'd definitely get a good lawyer and sue the pants off them.

In the twelve times that I’ve been stopped for OCing LEOs have never had reasonable suspicion of criminal activity. When I manage to get a word in they usually just sidestep my question saying "You are carrying a gun on your hip we have a right to know who you are!" or the classic standby "We received several calls from concerned citizens" or (while disarming me) "Oh yeah, I know open carry is legal but we still gotta check you out." or stonewall me with silence or a battery of intrusive questions long enough to run the serial numbers.

In short, they never acknowledge that the OCer has a right to privacy and is protected from unreasonable search and seizure. It’s been my experience that when detained on the side of the road the law is whatever the cops says it is - even if youre holding it in your hand in black and white.

 

[Big Gay Al]

In the twelve times that I’ve been stopped for OCing LEOs have never had reasonable suspicion of criminal activity. When I manage to get a word in they usually just sidestep my question saying "You are carrying a gun on your hip we have a right to know who you are!" or the classic standby "We received several calls from concerned citizens" or (while disarming me) "Oh yeah, I know open carry is legal but we still gotta check you out." or stonewall me with silence or a battery of intrusive questions long enough to run the serial numbers.

In short, they never acknowledge that the OCer has a right to privacy and is protected from unreasonable search and seizure. It’s been my experience that when detained on the side of the road the law is whatever the cops says it is - even if youre holding it in your hand in black and white.

If that's the case, you start asking them for their name and badge number, and you start complaining to the chief, the news media, or their office of professional standards (Internal Affairs). If you don't have a voice recorder, get one. Being in the Detroit area, it will likely come in very handy.

 

[ken243]

If I were stopped by an LEO without RAS and just for OC I would not show ID either. I do not carry ID. I carry a driver's license. I would ask if I was being detained. If so I would say nothing further other than "Am I free to go?". If my pistol was taken and I was searched I would not resist. Once the encounter was finished I would drive straight to my lawyers office and file a lawsuit in the relm of $300k plus. I would then go to the country DA office and ask charges be filed for battery, kidnapping, larceny and ask about a federal case for the violations of my 2nd and 4th amendment rights. In your scenario the officer still has my gun so I would report it stolen to my local PD and give the name of the person that did indeed steal it. Remember, there was no reason for the stop in the first place so all actions thereafter are illegal (Felonies none the less). Then let the courts take it from there. If the DA does not bring up the charges as they should I would release the audio and video from the 2 video recording devices I carry to the media.

This may be extreme for some of you but my motives may be a little different that yours. I OC for protection. I am not interested in educating LEO's on OC if they stop me for it. Much like I am not interested in educating Paramedics on EMS when they are caring for me after a car crash. LEO's should know the laws. Much like as a Paramedic I should know medical protocols. If I do not follow said protocols I can lose my license and end up in prison for gross negligence. This applys the exact same way for LEO's. If they are grossly negligent they should loss their job and be in-prisoned. Ignorance is no excuse for us, nor is it for them.

With that said I have made many friends in LE while working as a Paramedic. They all know the laws and know what happens in the screw up. I do not know one LEO that has a "God" complex and believes they can not be held accountable for their mistakes.

A worse case scenario of course. But then again I have never had a negative encounter from LEO's while OCing. But the sheeple, many times. Most of which I should mention are more interested rather than condescending.