Is it time to insist on Standardized Police Uniforms?

[Morris]

Seriously? You folks are getting this worked up over uniforms? With everything else going on in the local community and world today? Holy craptactular God. And upset because mourning bands cover the one spot on a badge where the number is? Wow.

How about we flip the coin and demand that OC'ers wear a uniform so they can be readily recognized by the non gun-toting public?

Uniforms serve a variety of purposes. And they are expensive, especially for officers NOT on a quartermaster system (a shirt and pants combo is usually about $90 - and they wera quickly enough. A Bratwear brand jumpsuit is easily $400). They fit the needs and culture of a department, agency or section. Since you want to hammer Santiago's photos, perhaps it eluded most of you that he is on the gang unit and is a stellar guy by all accounts. His uniform met criteria established by the SPD for that unit. It sure wasn't willy nilly chosen from "a catalog." It has served a distinct purpose for a long time.

Seriously, if stuff like this works you into a froth, I can hardly wait to see what doesn't.

 

[amlevin]

Seriously? You folks are getting this worked up over uniforms? With everything else going on in the local community and world today?

Did you read where there was an underlying event that brought up the question as to whether a couple of officers really looked like Police Officers?

How many different "looks" does the department really need to get the job done? Or is it a matter of "culture"? Some units just need to look more "cool". Reminds me of Lt. Howard Hunter in Hill Street Blues who "designed his own uniform because the regular uniform just didn't make the right statement".

 

[oneeyeross]

Seriously? You folks are getting this worked up over uniforms?

The reason it is an issue is that I can be charged for not obeying a police officer's instructions. If I can't recognize the individual as a police officer because he wears a non-standard uniform.....well, in the case in point it lead to a young man being turned into a quad...not a prospect I like.

What is the problem for the police? Uni (one) form. Not a hard concept. If the police want the public to respect the badge and uniform, they need to let us know what that uniform is and wear THAT one, or do we need a booklet to describe all the possible permutations of the uniform that officers "might" wear?

As for what the uniforms cost....poor boys. Were they forced to join the police department and nothing else? All of us have to buy our clothes to go to work in (well, after I retired from the Army that is). No kudos for buying clothes from this party. If you don't like spending that much on clothes, find a different job.

 

[marshaul]

It also seems like SPD officers are always mourning the loss of an officer somewhere so note how how the badge number in in a near perpetual state of concealment

Can someone explain how this isn't a complete non-sequitur? I mean, I gather that police use the one as an excuse for the other. But what is the possible connection?

 

[dadada]

How about we flip the coin and demand that OC'ers wear a uniform so they can be readily recognized by the non gun-toting public?

We do wear something that stands out. Notice the gun on the hip? That differentiates me from a non gun-toting pleb!

 

[marshaul]

The reason it is an issue is that I can be charged for not obeying a police officer's instructions.

In light of what happened to John T. Williams, your statement should be revised to read, "The reason it is an issue is that I can be shot for not obeying a police officer's instructions."

 

[sudden valley gunner]

snip because it was obvious he didn't pay attention to the whole thread

Would like to point out how the LEO attitude of why don't we make the "citizens" do this! (The open carrier comment) this is very telling coming from a law enforcement officer.

We are not public employees we are not "beholding" to you. YOU are the encroachment on our liberties, not the other way around. We can discuss whatever we want and if we can get momentum to make YOU wear a pink tutu as part of your job as OUR employee then your only choice is not to be a cop if YOU don't like it.

Oh side note, if you noticed my posts and many of the others, we don't give a rats ass about the uniform it was the action of the officer.

 

[gogodawgs]

Would like to point out how the LEO attitude of why don't we make the "citizens" do this! (The open carrier comment) this is very telling coming from a law enforcement officer.

We are not public employees we are not "beholding" to you. YOU are the encroachment on our liberties, not the other way around. We can discuss whatever we want and if we can get momentum to make YOU wear a pink tutu as part of your job as OUR employee then your only choice is not to be a cop if YOU don't like it.

Oh side note, if you noticed my posts and many of the others, we don't give a rats ass about the uniform it was the action of the officer.

We, the people of the State of Washington, grateful to the Supreme Ruler of the Universe for our liberties, do ordain this constitution.

ARTICLE I
DECLARATION OF RIGHTS

SECTION 1 POLITICAL POWER. All political power is inherent in the people, and governments derive their just powers from the consent of the governed, and are established to protect and maintain individual rights.

The above to prove SVGs point of view. It is so and public employees, civil servants and all political figures need to always remember this first and specific part of our state constitution.

Furthermore, I agree, I don't care what uniform the police wear as long as I can identify them as the police. It is the behavior of the said officer that counts. In addition it is the behavior of an open carry advocate that also matters.

 

[Tomas]

Seriously?
[dross removed]

Yes, seriously.

For your safety and ours, law enforcement personnel need to be readily identifiable under all lighting conditions, under high stress and low, and without doubt.

Clearly identifiable uniforms are a good start. Clearly identifiable individual officers (name/badge number/department) follows closely. Easily identified official vehicles are needed, too.
____

I was watching (non-current) coverage just last night, for example, where neighbors called 911 about gunfire in or near a neighbor's house.

Police responded, at night, dressed for covert activity in very dark paramilitary outfits, no visible markings and armed with AR-15s. Vehicles were parked out of sight.

They approached the house using all the cover they could find, and did not announce their presence.

They came under fire from the house as they crept up on it.

Long story short: The gunfire heard earlier by neighbors was the homeowner repelling a home invasion by several black-clad assailants, and the homeowner thought they were back, his home phone was out of service so he couldn't call for help, and he was protecting himself as best he could with what he had.

What was needed for officer and homeowner safety?

Some way to identify the officers, eh?

What would be some of the ways they could be identified by the homeowner?

Think about it.

Lemme know when you have an answer.

Now, think about any law enforcement contacts, other than under cover, where making LEOs difficult to identify is a plus.

Name them.

Thank you, Morris.

 

[1245A Defender]

well,,

In light of what happened to John T. Williams, your statement should be revised to read, "The reason it is an issue is that I can be shot for not obeying a police officer's instructions."

the only reason that this shooting wasnt immediately recognized,
as flat out first degree MURDER, the uniform....

 

[sudden valley gunner]

the only reason that this shooting wasnt immediately recognized,
as flat out first degree MURDER, the uniform....

+1

 

[DevinWKuska]

RE: the following pics.


Yes I do believe Law Enforcement Officers SHOULD be required to have some form of COMMON and CONSISTANT identification. The problem is what that should be. All of these uniforms are far to easy to make. For instance that ATF agent with his blue jeans on. I can go into almost any gas station and purchase a black or blue ATF hat. SPencers in the mall use to sell a black rain coat that said police or SWAT on the back. I suspect any screen printing shop would have no issues putting anything u want on a uniform. http://www.gravesuniforms.com/publicsafety/outerwear/policeblousecoats.html
shows a full uniform. this site will sell u one with dept badges and not proof of being LEO required.

Simply printing police or ATF I dont think is good enough. Badges are much more difficult to forge I would like to think. As far as police cars... you can buy a set of police LED flashers for about $300 http://www.hidxenonlights.com/strobe-lights-c-668
So thie big questions is what uniform can we give to police that is not legal to duplicate an sell the the Public?

Yes!

I think the lack of a firearm would solve several existing problems.

Far as I am concerned, law enforcement has reached a point where firearms should have to be requisitioned from storage when actually needed.

This statement is both dangerous and shows some serious lack of awareness. I suggest you check this link out. http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/2439778/four_police_officers_killed_at_forza.html
These officers were gunned down while drinking coffee at a coffeeshop I goto on my way to work. When u consider that most of the people in the UK dont own guns police without guns makes sense. Here in the US where the 2nd amendment is enforced. De-arming the LEO's will only lead to violent acts against LEO becoming more often. This will lead to marshal law, and then you can kiss your rights away.

 

[gogodawgs]

Oh, goodness. Why do we try to distract instead of making a valid and succint point? No one brought up impersonators, which is a crime and no one is suggesting it shouldn't be a crime.

What the topic at hand is that ALL police officers be clearly identified as such when responding to a call or interacting with the public.

 

[DevinWKuska]

According to testimony during the civil trial, Paul and fellow Deputy Joseph Eshom were wearing black tactical uniforms, not traditional deputy uniforms. Attorneys for Sarah Harris argued that Chris Harris likely didn't realize Paul and Eshom were officers.

While this person was not carrying a firearm and the reason that the Officers were chasing him was a case of mistaken ID, this does illustrate a problem that all of us here could face at one time or another.

How do you know that anyone shouting at you to "stop" (or any other command for that matter) is really a police officer? It appears that there is no standard of dress for a Patrol Officer and the trend seems more towards dressing in a tactical manner. In order to be more "tactical" some are even doing away with things like "collar brass" and rather than a badge, merely embroidering one on the uniform, often in darker toned thread than white, silver, or gold. Also missing is a prominent "Badge Number" or readable name tag.

When traveling in Seattle it is possible to see 5 or 6 different uniform styles when you take into consideration Metro Transit, KCSO, and SPD. Some with "Bus Driver Hats, Some with Baseball Caps, and some with "Operator's" stocking caps, and then Motor Officers with Helmets. About the only police force in Washington that is truly recognizable at all times is the State Patrol.,

One thing I found interesting while in Europe, all police officers looked like police officers. The "tactical officers" didn't wear their "BDU's" until they were responding to an incident that required their presence.

Is it time for a standard for our Police Officer's patrol uniforms?

I believe the topic was more of police should be indentifiable as POLICE. Many in this forum have suggested simply putting POLICE on a shirt is not good enough. Of course if we had pictures of the said officers I suppose that would settle this once and for all. Personally if someone yells police in open public I beleive I would tell them to show me a badge. Running is never a good idea, if they are police you are eluding. If they are not police you are in a public place and (hopefully) the general public will rush to your aid. I think if we standardized uniforms (or atleast reduced to 2-3 styles) of LEO then cases like this would occur far less often.

 

[marshaul]

This statement is both dangerous and shows some serious lack of awareness. I suggest you check this link out. http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/2439778/four_police_officers_killed_at_forza.html
These officers were gunned down while drinking coffee at a coffeeshop I goto on my way to work. When u consider that most of the people in the UK dont own guns police without guns makes sense. Here in the US where the 2nd amendment is enforced. De-arming the LEO's will only lead to violent acts against LEO becoming more often. This will lead to marshal law, and then you can kiss your rights away.

First of all, as I already pointed out, the police in London have been unarmed since the days when it was commonplace for British subjects to be armed, requiring no permission to be so.

In fact, they were first disarmed during a period of frequent armed confrontation, as an attempt to prevent escalation of conflict as much as possible. Which, it seems, worked pretty well at the time, seeing as they never felt a need to rearm for general patrol (until the recent era of statism). This is despite the fact that gun control was yet many decades coming, contrary to the implication made by your assertion (that being, unarmed police are only ever found in unarmed countries).

In historical accounts one reads of police borrowing guns from nearby citizens when chasing criminals, as they citizens had them handy, and the cops didn't.

As for those officers who were killed in that coffee shop, their firearms didn't do them any good anyway, now did they? Maurice Clemmons evaded capture for two days before he was finally shot.

In general, in big cities with high crime, police officers are less likely to die on the job than Americans are to be victims of homicide. So, my reaction is to tell police to stop whining, suck it up and do their job, just like British cops did when they were the only people in sight generally not armed.

Cops murder, with a hostile attitude and way too much equipment, far more Americans than Americans kill cops.

If the British history is any indicator, violent acts against police would significantly decrease were they disarmed, although of course the occasional ambush/murder committed by a psychopath might still occur, as it does today when police are armed to the teeth.

And threatening me with martial law doesn't change my analysis one bit.

 

[Trigger Dr]

In Mayberry, Sherif Andy Taylor never wore a gun or "uniform", but Barney did.

 

[Trigger Dr]

In Mayberry, Sheriff Andy Taylor never wore a gun or "uniform", but Barney did.

 

[DevinWKuska]

And threatening me with martial law doesn't change my analysis one bit.

Please forgive me. It was not my intention to direct that statement towards you specifically. I was more referring to if martial law is declared everyones rights pretty much go down the tubes. my statement "then you can kiss your rights goodbye" was more of an offhand comment. Again it wasnt a threat, or even directed toward you specifically.

 

[killchain]

Here's one style

Note the small lettering for the "name badge". Couple that with the badge number either not on the "embroidered badge" or in low contrast thread.

and a couple more. In this case there are two different patrol uniforms for the same department (exclude the ATF agent)

If it wasn't for the car, is this a Police Officer or a Security Guard:

The regular SPD Uniform:

It also seems like SPD officers are always mourning the loss of an officer somewhere so note how how the badge number in in a near perpetual state of concealment

And as far as the words "Police" on the tactical uniforms, it's usually on the back in big white letters. That's only to keep fellow officers from shooting them.

The above pictures only show some of the uniforms in use in SPD. Bicycle units use different uniforms at different times of the year as expected. Add to the mix the KCSO uniforms and their palette of colors and it gets interesting.

I just want to point out that everyone in these pictures obviously looks like a Police Officer.

 

[marshaul]

Please forgive me. It was not my intention to direct that statement towards you specifically. I was more referring to if martial law is declared everyones rights pretty much go down the tubes. my statement "then you can kiss your rights goodbye" was more of an offhand comment. Again it wasnt a threat, or even directed toward you specifically.

Sorry about that. I worded that very poorly.

I didn't think you were threatening me, or anybody else, specifically.

I just meant to say -- and it was really directed at a hypothetical cop who might make a similar argument as yours -- "the possibility of that potential threat does not change my analysis."

The reason for this is that I don't at all suspect the danger would, in actual practice, be enough to incite the kind of reaction you're suggesting.

Also, I'd think that, for a variety of reasons, such a shift would be accompanied by a significant shift in law enforcement priorities, away from "proactive" roadside enforcement of drug, firearm, and a host of other malum prohibitum offenses, and towards, you know, arresting people who actually hurt people and thereby stopping them from hurting others.

Reduced to a more reasonable role, patrol police would be doing little more than handing out traffic tickets, recording traffic accidents, directing traffic, attempting to calm minor altercations they might come across and, of course, calling for backup in the event they encounter a serious crime or a wanted and dangerous felon. Guns might be brought by police who must go into situations where they can reasonably anticipate a need to be shooting things (i.e. not just driving around town looking for speeders).

I honestly, sincerely believe that right here, in our own country, the state has demonstrated beyond a doubt the inadvisability of allowed armed agents of the state to regularly accost citizens for trivial offenses. Take a look at the news. Take a look at threads posted here literally all the time about people being murdered for no reason by a cop with all the wrong attitude and all the wrong training.