Illinois Detectives Booted from Denny's for OC.

[LESGTINCT]

ROFL!! I agree!

The most hilarious point is his overlooking something. All his years in LE. He's stuck in a certain line of thinking and seems to have totally missed the obvious. By which I mean he's so busy thinking cops deserve special privileges, he's completely missed the obvious point:

Denny's shouldn't be denying anybody they don't have to the right to possess a firearm for self-defense. If the cops want to be butt hurt about something, that one is unassailable. "Hey! I'm a human being. I have the basic human right of self-defense. I'm one of the very few that state law allows to open carry! Can you please recognize my right to defend my life and the lives of others!"

But, nope. He's too busy arguing the special privilege side of things.

You can defend yourself just not on private property.

 

[LESGTINCT]

Quite possible. Good point. I am betting, however, that despite his alleged "20 years experience" that there is a great deal he does not understand, and this parallels what has been seen by many people in a lot of locations. Just because they have been on the job for a long time, does not mean they understand the law, only what they can get away with while doing their job.

My argument is exactly that...if the police expect everyone to make an exception just because they are police, they need an attitude adjustment.

Oops, did I do that Strawman thing again?

 

[Citizen]

And more insults.

Nice try at another evasion. Wanna go back and refute my last argument?

Keep pulling strawman arguments and evasions and I'll keep tossing in a few personal insults. Want me to play nice? Then you play nice, too. You can make all the hard-hitting arguments you can. Stoop to cheesy tactics, I'm gonna insult. How did you say? "Don't like it? Too bad."

 

[LESGTINCT]

Nice try at another evasion. Wanna go back and refute my last argument?

Keep pulling strawman arguments and evasions and I'll keep tossing in a few personal insults. Want me to play nice? Then you play nice, too. You can make all the hard-hitting arguments you can. Stoop to cheesy tactics, I'm gonna insult. How did you say? "Don't like it? Too bad."

You never played nice just judged. Have a nice day, I wish I could stay and get insulted more but I have to go watch paint dry. Good luck with OC and/or CC in Illinois.

 

[PFC HALE]

You never played nice just judged. Have a nice day, I wish I could stay and get insulted more but I have to go watch paint dry. Good luck with OC and/or CC in Illinois.

sounds like a threat to me if you ever go to illinois and open carry and happen to have a run in with him...

why would we need luck open carrying in Illinois? is there something that police arent telling us?

 

[Grapeshot]

Strawman argument. I didn't say they didn't have that right. I said the human right argument is an unassailable reason for being miffed. Its their property right; and its yours and ours right to criticize it and offer counter-argument.

Nice try. Hopefully you did better with logic and differentiation during your 20 year career regarding RAS and probable cause.

And more insults.

See no insult here, just some unusual/unpleasant opinions on both sides.

 

[Grapeshot]

Not sure the great value of this thread.

Denny's is private property and may do what they wish in this area - LEOs have been asked/told to leave establishments before. Is it different?.......yea...and.

The merit of wringing out the last measure of juice on this is minimal and has very little to do with OC by LAC going about their normal daily routine. That and personal discussions should be conducted by PM.

 

[vt800c]

To answer some questions:

You asked:

When you get into a car accident do you have to report it to your boss? If you get arrested do you have to report it to your boss? Do you get suspended or fired from your job? Does your job require you to adhere to a code of conduct on and off duty? Do you have to act in a medical emergency or intervene in a criminal act in progress?

yes. as well as a few others in my company.
yes. as well as a NUMBER of other individuals, both in my company and outside agencies!
yes. not only suspended or fired, but also banned from EVER holding a comperable level position again!
YES. to include guidelines on interpersonal relationships, foreign contacts, foreign travel....
No..that one I don't. but I would because thats the kind of person I am.

I am retired military. I work in the DC area. I hold a clearance. I try to hold police to a higher standard, because I am myself held to a higher standard. I am also glad I live in a state that allows me to be a bodyguard; To protect my own body from harm.

 

[WalkingWolf]

You can defend yourself just not on private property.

Do you really believe the above?!? Because a person is on private property they do not relinquish their right to self defense. BUT they must honor the rights of property owner as to who can or cannot be on their property for most any reason. As long as it does not violate certain civil rights laws.

Police officers have no super powers unless someone is breaking the law, I hate this attitude from thugs with a badge. IMO it is the main cause of animosity between the public and police. Their privilege to carry a firearm stops on private property if the owner trespasses them while not in performance of their duties. In fact owner can trespass them because they are ugly, they smell, are wearing tacticool boots, polo shirts, talk to loud, are buffoons, and because they are carrying firearms.

 

[OC for ME]

I disagree and it's obvious you have a problem with LEO's. To group us all into one category is ignorant. To judge every officer and me is ignorant. There are officers getting arrested every day for criminal offenses and they don't get breaks. <snip>

Citizens who commit crimes are criminals. Their employment status is irrelevant. However, it has been cited here on OCDO repeatedly that cops who commit crimes are far less likely to be placed in the same legal jeopardy as a non-LEO. Laws have been enacted that contain verbiage that protects (exempts) cops from legal sanction for a variety of crimes while they are "on-duty" where a non-LEO citizen would be held to account.

You act as though Police Officers are like any other person and you are wrong. We are not like private citizens carrying guns. <snip>

Your firearm is a tool this is required to be carried as a condition of employment. A policy infraction only if not complied with. Unless CT statute explicitly states that a on-duty peace officer must be armed.

I agree, let the officers choose. Maybe what the Captain did was not the best decision, does that mean he is an arrogant elitist? It seems that you are quick to assume the worst in people. Is it because he is a cop?

I believe that that Chief is a arrogant elitist.

This was an insult, a slap in the face, to those detectives and to all of the men and women who proudly wear the uniform or badge and serve in law enforcement. - Clay said in a statement, according to the News-Democrat.

You may or may not recognize the irony in the Chief's statement.

Nope, disagree. There is a difference. If an OC'er was in the restaurant and a minor disturbance broke out, you, as an OCer can do very little nor are you obligated to, it's not your job. However, an LEO has to maintain the peace and intervene, and make an arrest if necessary, it's our job, not yours. You have no arrest authority, you are not an LEO, therefore you are different. It does not make you less of a citizen, that's not what I mean but there is a difference.

Well, considering that SCOTUS has ruled that cops don't have to intervene at that exact moment, if you will, your argument fails. Cops do intervene because that is what they are paid to do. Maybe CT is different, but in MO I do have arrest powers as a citizen. What I do not have is the immunities (that a cop enjoys) that go along with that arrest power if I make a mistake in my good and reasonable judgement.

Oh, we are talking about off duty now? That's a little different. Remember an LEO is on duty as soon as they ID themselves as LEO. If not, then yes, I agree. You either secure it or leave just like everyone else. I am not saying there should be special treatment however you have to realize there is a difference between an LEO and a private citizen.

Where does it state in CT statute that the act of presenting ID while off-duty instantly places you back on duty. This is commonly referred to as a cite request.

Then can you explain this?

720 ILCS 5/7-7) (from Ch. 38, par. 7-7)
Sec. 7-7. Private person's use of force in resisting arrest. A person is not authorized to use force to resist an arrest which he knows is being made either by a peace officer or by a private person summoned and directed by a peace officer to make the arrest, even if he believes that the arrest is unlawful and the arrest in fact is unlawful.

A private citizen does not have this right.

Again, I am disappointed in your ability to understand the above statute. In Illinois a citizen can not use force to prevent their own arrest. Nor can another citizen use force to prevent the arrest of another citizen by LE.

Originally Posted by carolina guy
Are they on patrol or responding to a call? If not, they are not in service and do not require the immediate use/access to their firearms. Just because their identify themselves as LEO, does not mean that a private citizen must surrender their property rights if it is not directly related to the enforcement of a law.

And no, there is no difference between LEO and private citizens when they are not ACTIVELY enforcing the law.

First part, not true. Like I said a firearm is part of the uniform, without it the LEO is not in uniform and is in violation of policy. Not to mention that there is probably a policy about disarming.

Once again you describe a condition of employment. Please provide a legal requirement, CT statute, that CT peace officers must be armed to perform their duties. Then please provide the legal requirement, CT statute, that a off-duty peace officer must be armed in case he must show his "ID" which then instantly places him on-duty.

You can defend yourself just not on private property.

:shocker:.....uh, you may wish to rephrase this. At a minimum please confirm for us that CT citizens are permitted to defend themselves on their own private property.

I honestly had no idea that a LEO could hold the views that you hold. Or, maybe I subconsciously refused to accept that a LEO would hold such views. Unfortunately, I must confess, I fear that your views are likely held by a vast majority of LE professionals.

 

[OC for ME]

Not sure the great value of this thread.

Denny's is private property and may do what they wish in this area - LEOs have been asked/told to leave establishments before. Is it different?.......yea...and.

The merit of wringing out the last measure of juice on this is minimal and has very little to do with OC by LAC going about their normal daily routine. That and personal discussions should be conducted by PM.

Well, this is in the Illinois sub-forum. A state that is a gun free zone for non-LEO citizens as a matter of public policy and the law. OC is verboten!

Based on the report(s) it is not entirely clear that the one detective out of the group of detectives was OC, technically speaking. The reports do state that only one officer, and not all of the officers, was asked to leave her firearm "outside." It is evident that a uniformed or readily identifiable cop is not a issue. What is at issue.....er, was at issue, for one private citizen, was seeing a gun on the hip of a person.....in Illinois, who could not be readily identified as a cop.

With that being said, how many time do we OCers get asked by Joe/Jane Q. Public, and cops for that matter, if we are a cop because they see a gun on our hip and no badge that "should" accompany that gun.

Anyway, this discussion was lively to say the least.....me likey.

 

[thebigsd]

I never said they didn't. Denny's has the right to ban firearms in their store. Sorry you don't like that but it is what it is.

I think you missed my point. It had nothing to do with Denny's. My point is this: a private citizen has just as much need for a gun as a police officer does regardless of where they are. We carry to defend our lives and the lives of others (depending on the situation). You carry to defend your life and the lives of others (depending on the situation). There is NO difference in this regard, and the differences you have pointed out are debatable at best.

 

[WalkingWolf]

I think he is also missing that Denny's has a right to ban police officers from their store... Whether he likes it or not.

 

[Citizen]

From what I've read in the local paper, all of this was caused by one "old biddy" that was upset by these officers. It was the ASST. mgr. that asked them to leave. The MANAGER went outside to the officers before they left (they DID leave the food on the table - don't know if they paid) and said he was over-riding thge asst. mgr. and they could return.
They didn't.
This fracas went all the way to Denny's Corp. office, who apologized to the chief. They offered free meals to ANY officer that came in on a specific day. Chief lifted the ban.

Translation: The high-and-mighty were so miffed, they didn't even return when apologized by the manager on the spot. The highest-and-mightiest still banned all his cops (presumably the ejected cops told the chief the manager apologized and over-rode the assistant manager as part of their report; but the captain still banned all cops, including uniformed cops who were not covered by the mistaken assistant manager.)

And, then the captain lifts the ban after another apology and free food?

Oh, if true, this is a great image polisher for the police. /sarcasm