xdsc9
New member
Just as stated I want fact and personal opinion on this one. How would you handle it, what laws could you quote and would you let a leo of any kind disarm you for any reason other than full blown arrest?
I appreciate both opinions I have received so far... keep them coming. The whole reason I even bring this up is, when I first started carrying I had a run in with a TN state trooper at a normal traffic stop. He walked up to the vehicle and leaned down to notice my hands on the wheel as so may preach about doing at a traffic stop. His first words to me where is their a weapon in this vehicle. Me trying my hardest not to be a smart a** and say yes theirs a tire iron in the trunk lol, I refrained my self and said yes I have a Springfield 9MM on my hip which is covered by my seat belt... Saying this to re assure him it would be almost impossible for me to even reach the gun. Pointless I guess because his next action was to ask me to remove my pistol from the holster and hand it to him, which required me to unlatch my seat belt just to even be able to remove the weapon from my side. With out any hesitation I informed him of this and he rested his hand on his sidearm and asked me to proceed. I removed the 9mm and as he had ask spun it around and handed my loaded gun to him grip first... (all before even asking for any identification from me) As i handed him the firearm I stated I'm permitted by the state of TN. He struggled with the gun as he asked if it was loaded and I told him yes it was. After trying to pull the slide back a couple of time he then asked it the gun had a malfunction... This being a very new firearm I replied that he needed to put a little more force on the slide. He did so and the round in the chamber falls out to the ground. He then removed the mag and place it on the roof of my car, a pet peeve of mine (i place nothing on my cars paint NOTHING) lol. Then he picked up the round he dropped and asks... Is this police issue ammunition to which i responded no. That is hornady critical defense ammunition. He also badgered me about where it was purchased... (side note i was under the assumption that there was no such thing as police only use ammunition) After all was said and done he stuck the gun in the back of his pants and ask for all my assorted paper work and wrote me a ticket for window tint of all things. End of story Handed me all my belongings back including the gun unloaded and told me he felt he should be the only one armed at a traffic stop and that i could not reload the gun till he had fully left my line of sight. Felt like a lot of unnecessary hassle to me and thus this topic was started.
I appreciate both opinions I have received so far... keep them coming. The whole reason I even bring this up is, when I first started carrying I had a run in with a TN state trooper at a normal traffic stop. He walked up to the vehicle and leaned down to notice my hands on the wheel as so may preach about doing at a traffic stop. His first words to me where is their a weapon in this vehicle. Me trying my hardest not to be a smart a** and say yes theirs a tire iron in the trunk lol, I refrained my self and said yes I have a Springfield 9MM on my hip which is covered by my seat belt... Saying this to re assure him it would be almost impossible for me to even reach the gun. Pointless I guess because his next action was to ask me to remove my pistol from the holster and hand it to him, which required me to unlatch my seat belt just to even be able to remove the weapon from my side. With out any hesitation I informed him of this and he rested his hand on his sidearm and asked me to proceed. I removed the 9mm and as he had ask spun it around and handed my loaded gun to him grip first... (all before even asking for any identification from me) As i handed him the firearm I stated I'm permitted by the state of TN. He struggled with the gun as he asked if it was loaded and I told him yes it was. After trying to pull the slide back a couple of time he then asked it the gun had a malfunction... This being a very new firearm I replied that he needed to put a little more force on the slide. He did so and the round in the chamber falls out to the ground. He then removed the mag and place it on the roof of my car, a pet peeve of mine (i place nothing on my cars paint NOTHING) lol. Then he picked up the round he dropped and asks... Is this police issue ammunition to which i responded no. That is hornady critical defense ammunition. He also badgered me about where it was purchased... (side note i was under the assumption that there was no such thing as police only use ammunition) After all was said and done he stuck the gun in the back of his pants and ask for all my assorted paper work and wrote me a ticket for window tint of all things. End of story Handed me all my belongings back including the gun unloaded and told me he felt he should be the only one armed at a traffic stop and that i could not reload the gun till he had fully left my line of sight. Felt like a lot of unnecessary hassle to me and thus this topic was started.
Sooo here is the thing,,, Racking a round out of the chamber, to fall on the ground, while the mag is still in the gun,,,
means that a new round was then loaded!
Removing the mag at that time does not negate the fact that the gun is still loaded!
Was the gun loaded when he handed it back to you?
The OPer's question is too imprecise.
First, lets clarify it. "...feels he needs to disarm you."
This aspect of a copfrontation is going to come in three forms.
First, its going to be a consensual request from the cop--phrase and voice tone making it obvious its a request that can be turned down by the OCer. If that is the case, I would just politely refuse consent to surrendering my sidearm temporarily.
Second, its going to be a demand. That is to say a declaration along the lines of, "I am going to remove your gun..." I would not resist, but would still politely refuse consent. "I will not resist, officer, but do not consent."
Third, its going to be an ambiguous statement. Cops are good at this. They use polite "request" language, but their tone of voice makes it clear they won't accept noncompliance. I would treat this as a demand. That is to say, I would not physically resist. While still politely refusing consent.
I like Maverick9's method of refusing consent: "I'd prefer nobody touches...safest in holster."
Of course, for all copfrontations that are not traffic stops, the first words out of my mouth are, "No offense officer, but I do not consent to an encounter with you." This immediately removes all doubt about whether the encounter itself is consensual or not; and throws the legal ball in his court--now, he must have genuine reasonable suspicion to continue the encounter (See Terry v Ohio, and subsequent, related cases.)
A couple other points.
One, I would never hand over the gun. Touching a gun in the presence of a cop can be deadly. The president of VCDL relates the story of a motorist shot and killed because the partner of the officer at the drivers door didn't hear the request to hand over the gun. The partner only saw the driver reaching into the glove box for the gun, thus shooting the driver. If he's made a demand, let the officer get the gun himself. "I'm willing to step out of the car and let you get the gun officer." On a side note, if you can get it on audio-video that the cop requested you hand him your gun, you've got proof that he did not consider you dangerous.
You can lay a little trap for the cop, too. When he returns the gun, just ask innocently, "So, the serial number came back clean?" If he says yes on audio/video, you've got his confession he ran the serial number. Depending on the circumstances, that may play to your advantage. For example, Arizona v Hicks makes it clear a cop needs probable cause to search a serial number that is not in plain view. If your gun was for example in a holster between the seats and the cop took the gun with the holster still around the gun back to his car, and he had to remove the gun from the holster to view the serial number, but did not have probable cause to think the gun was stolen, then he performed an illegal search under Arizona v Hicks. There's a an old thread around here somewhere discussing a bit of electrical tape and whatnot to cover serial numbers.
Pointless I guess because his next action was to ask me to remove my pistol from the holster and hand it to him
This is why I wear a duty belt.
I've been asked for my weapon a couple times. I unbuckle the belt, and hand the entire thing over so I don't have to unholster.
I'm not in tenn, and wv requires no permit to open carry. I've had to educate a couple Leo's on this as well. I always try to keep a copy of the handy dandy pamphlet that is on here and give it to whoever is hassling me.
Hassle is a strong word though. Amidst all the "confrontations" about my side arm, I've never felt hassled. I really don't mind handing over my firearm if asked at a traffic stop, because usually it's just you and the officer around here and putting myself in his/her shoes, I can understand the unease. Now in public is a different story, but that's never happened. I would never touch my side arm in public unless I was planning to discharge. But if it came down to it, the belt goes.
My usual mantra is "I will not consent to being disarmed, but I will not resist should you feel the need to do so." This covers you and it makes me feel like I'm not being a giant dick.
"Please do not point my own weapon at me."<snip>
I don't see why you can't just say 'I'd prefer nobody touches the firearm, if that's OK by you; it's safest when it stays in the holster'. That way you are showing that you want it to be in the holster and he's not concerned that you'll be reckless.
I think that works sometimes. But as some say, don't resist.