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Got kicked out of a thrift store....

AIC869

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 1, 2010
Messages
105
Location
Prince William Co, Virginia, USA
I do not carry a pistol like the u.s. carries its military, When I carry a pistol: 1. It is for self defense only. 2. I do not go out of my way to search and destroy bad guys, I deem a potential threat. 3. The only lawful order my trigger finger responds to comes from my brain.

I do not elect any govt. or supposed official thereof, To think we have a say in the rules applied on us, is a joke, Harry Reid does not represent me when he passes a bill, any more than he represents me when he pilfers money, or violates his oath to the constitution.

For the record I find all violence distasteful. The type you propagate is particularly wretched. You do not defend me, or my family. You defend imaginary and ever changing lines on a map, (Gang turf.) You do not defend my ideals, freedom, or anything that interests me. What you defend is the enemy of my freedom. You enforce for the thugs who force me to pay for others welfare checks, while instead I could be helping my mom. You enforce for those that to take my freedom to choose my own medical plan away. You enforce for those who tell me when, and where I can, and cannot defend my life. You enforce for those who would invade my home and shoot my dog if they thought I was growing a certain leaf.

You admit you follow "lawful" orders. And if you don't you go to the brig. So you agree that you have no freedom to choose your mission, but you can acquire freedom for me?

I only ask for one explanation out of your whole declaration above. Where do these people who give you lawful orders get their authority from?

I'll bite on this one.

As a retired military officer (mustang variety), apparently we get our orders from a government who is elected by a populace that does not include you; we should infer as much from your comments above.

Verbal judo doesn't seem to be your strong suit - just my observation. There is no such thing as "defending the enemy of your freedom" without defending "[my] ideals, freedom, or anything that interests me." Statements such as "defend[ing] imaginary and ever changing lines on a map" makes you come off as some nutjob "sovereign" - the likes of which shows up on the board here from time to time.

We are simply the executors of American foreign policy. We have nothing to do with domestic policy, domestic programs, health care, invading your home, shooting your dog, the Golden Globe awards, or canceling any hope for bringing back The Gong Show.

If you're unable to draw distinction between civil government and the military, I can't help you and likely neither will these other gentlemen.

There... Peace spoken, no return to the thread planned. Any clarification of what you have clearly made unclear will be wasted effort. Good luck - we're all counting on you.
 

usmcmustang

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
Messages
393
Location
Las Vegas, NV & Southern Utah
I'll bite on this one.

As a retired military officer (mustang variety), apparently we get our orders from a government who is elected by a populace that does not include you; we should infer as much from your comments above.

Verbal judo doesn't seem to be your strong suit - just my observation. There is no such thing as "defending the enemy of your freedom" without defending "[my] ideals, freedom, or anything that interests me." Statements such as "defend[ing] imaginary and ever changing lines on a map" makes you come off as some nutjob "sovereign" - the likes of which shows up on the board here from time to time.

We are simply the executors of American foreign policy. We have nothing to do with domestic policy, domestic programs, health care, invading your home, shooting your dog, the Golden Globe awards, or canceling any hope for bringing back The Gong Show.

If you're unable to draw distinction between civil government and the military, I can't help you and likely neither will these other gentlemen.

There... Peace spoken, no return to the thread planned. Any clarification of what you have clearly made unclear will be wasted effort. Good luck - we're all counting on you.

I'm thinking there are retired military officers (mustang variety) out there who may have a differing opinion as to DTOM's post... myself being one. DTOM very definitively explained that what the military does is defend a government and not necessarily the people who are the subjects of that government. And, it's the same government, like you say, that raids homes, shoots dogs, etc., etc. here at home... in other words, not a "great" government and an institution that DTOM determines is an “enemy of (his) freedom.” He neither stated nor implied that the military had anything to do with domestic affairs. But I guess his “verbal judo” kinda snuck up on you there.

DTOM equated his carrying of a firearm to the government "carrying" of the military... both tools of force and violence. In that regard, those in the military are seemingly divested of their individual accountability as to their acts... they just follow orders... that's the enemy, kill him. While he counters that “the only lawful order (his) trigger finger responds to comes from (his) brain,” which makes him totally accountable… no “middle man.” In your "patriotic” and condescending way,” you dismiss him as a "sovereign nutjob"... not all that imaginative for a “retired military officer (mustang variety)” in my opinion. Lest we forget, the essentials of patriotism are conceit, arrogance and egotism… essentials with which you are so supremely endowed.
 

DON`T TREAD ON ME

Regular Member
Joined
May 17, 2009
Messages
1,231
Location
Las Vegas, Nevada, USA
I'll bite on this one.

As a retired military officer (mustang variety), apparently we get our orders from a government who is elected by a populace that does not include you; we should infer as much from your comments above.

Verbal judo doesn't seem to be your strong suit - just my observation. There is no such thing as "defending the enemy of your freedom" without defending "[my] ideals, freedom, or anything that interests me." Statements such as "defend[ing] imaginary and ever changing lines on a map" makes you come off as some nutjob "sovereign" - the likes of which shows up on the board here from time to time.

We are simply the executors of American foreign policy. We have nothing to do with domestic policy, domestic programs, health care, invading your home, shooting your dog, the Golden Globe awards, or canceling any hope for bringing back The Gong Show.

If you're unable to draw distinction between civil government and the military, I can't help you and likely neither will these other gentlemen.

There... Peace spoken, no return to the thread planned. Any clarification of what you have clearly made unclear will be wasted effort. Good luck - we're all counting on you.



No matter how fancy the title, Not one person has provided the authority to justify offensive military actions. But I will attempt to follow the arrogant insinuations I have been left with from some on this thread.

We all agree it would be immoral and criminal for me to subjectively decide that Ha bib (AKA Bad Guy) in Saudi Arabia was a threat to my safety, travel over there and Pop a cap at him, My question is this, How does a swearing in ceremony and a uniform change the morality/ legality of my actions?​

  • WE ARE GOVERNED BY OUR OWN CONSENT!
This makes no sense, the minuet you are Governed, (controlled) it ceases to be consent by any definition (including verbal judo.) If an individual consents.... He is not being governed. Ask this, if we consent, why do we need tax collectors and forced healthcare? when critically thought out it sounds nutty: “I agree to let you force things upon me, whether I
agree to them or not.”

  • THE MAJORITY VOTED YOUR CONSENT!
More senseless crap, How can another consent for you? if it is possible, Rape and theft would not exist, as the perpetrator would just consent for you. Also since you are governed from birth, at what age do you consent, Is it consent if there are implications should you not consent?

So where do these lawmakers get their "Authority"? And more importantly How can you possibly give someone something that you do not have, The power to Tax, wage war Draft soldiers (Involuntary servitude) make laws, Etc. Etc.

If you truly believe you can give something away, that you do not posses. I question your mindset and would like to borrow the Lear jet you don't own, as I have a date this weekend.

I am truly sorry if you put yourself in harms way over this gibberish we have been spoon fed all our lives, attacking me for speaking truth, will not diminish the utter nonsense we have all parroted
 

The Big Guy

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2009
Messages
1,966
Location
Waco, TX
I'll bite on this one.

As a retired military officer (mustang variety), apparently we get our orders from a government who is elected by a populace that does not include you; we should infer as much from your comments above.

Verbal judo doesn't seem to be your strong suit - just my observation. There is no such thing as "defending the enemy of your freedom" without defending "[my] ideals, freedom, or anything that interests me." Statements such as "defend[ing] imaginary and ever changing lines on a map" makes you come off as some nutjob "sovereign" - the likes of which shows up on the board here from time to time.

We are simply the executors of American foreign policy. We have nothing to do with domestic policy, domestic programs, health care, invading your home, shooting your dog, the Golden Globe awards, or canceling any hope for bringing back The Gong Show.

If you're unable to draw distinction between civil government and the military, I can't help you and likely neither will these other gentlemen.

There... Peace spoken, no return to the thread planned. Any clarification of what you have clearly made unclear will be wasted effort. Good luck - we're all counting on you.

AIC869 I assume you have been following the debate on this thread. I just want to say that your statement about people on this form coming off like nutjob sovereigns is a bit over the top. Though I don't agree with DTOM and USMCMUSTANG on many points when it comes to government I have to say that in all reality I'm closer to their way of thinking than not. At least in the basics of human liberty, dignity, and the right of all men and women to direct their own lives. If you as a serviceman believe that you were fighting for our liberty you must then realize that it includes everyone. Even those who you don't understand their way of thinking and don't agree with.

DTOM is an honorable man and though I only know USMCMUSTANG through this forum, I believe him to be too. In the heat of the conversation we all can come off a bit heavy handed but that doesn't make any of us mentally twisted.
I hope you take this in the spirit it was intended as we're all on this forum in a mutual effort to find ways to further our goal of liberty and most notably the right to keep and bear arms. That which defends all other rights.

TBG
 

Rusty Young Man

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 19, 2013
Messages
1,548
Location
Árida Zona
I think we're starting to confuse Rights with privileges. Government does not have any right to take money from an individual (larceny if no force or threat of force is used, robbery if force or threat of force IS used), just as I don't have any right to walk over to [insert any LAC's name here] and steal his/her money. Government is simply given the privilege of representing the collective interests of the people, as well as exercising the collective force of the people on those individuals who seek to violate others' Rights.

Granted, this is an IDEAL situation which deviates from actual practice since government (not just ours, but ours is the most pertinent to this conversation) has usurped power it did not receive from the consent of the people it claims to represent.

To spare everyone my ramblings: government has no "rights", much less Rights. All the power/authority the government has is derived from either "the consent of the governed", or from the threat of force.
The preferred method used to maintain that power/authority is what largely defines the "type" of government.
 
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DON`T TREAD ON ME

Regular Member
Joined
May 17, 2009
Messages
1,231
Location
Las Vegas, Nevada, USA
If someone can boss you around and take your money, he is not your servant; and if he cannot do those things, he is not “government.”.... Larkin Rose ~ The Most Dangerous superstition.
 

Bernymac

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2013
Messages
415
Location
Las Vegas
How about that thrift store??? :lol:

The "government of the people, by the people, for the people" is a great ideal, it's just that most government agents don't subscribe to the ideal.
 
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The Big Guy

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2009
Messages
1,966
Location
Waco, TX
How about that thrift store??? :lol:

The "government of the people, by the people, for the people" is a great ideal, it's just that most government agents don't subscribe to the ideal.

I don't know about "most" but I will agree that there are far too many. Perhaps as Hank Jr. sang, they need an attitude adjustment.

These sort of people being allowed to run amok in the government are the reason that our government continues to grow out of control. If there was no government at all these same people would be the instigators and trouble makers preying on other people unchecked. The meek and weak would have no peace and no protection.

TBG
 

Bernymac

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2013
Messages
415
Location
Las Vegas
I don't know about "most" but I will agree that there are far too many. Perhaps as Hank Jr. sang, they need an attitude adjustment.

These sort of people being allowed to run amok in the government are the reason that our government continues to grow out of control. If there was no government at all these same people would be the instigators and trouble makers preying on other people unchecked. The meek and weak would have no peace and no protection.

TBG

Ah, yes, wrong wording on my part. I should have written "some" as I am not privy to actual numbers.
 

usmcmustang

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
Messages
393
Location
Las Vegas, NV & Southern Utah
I don't know about "most" but I will agree that there are far too many. Perhaps as Hank Jr. sang, they need an attitude adjustment.

These sort of people being allowed to run amok in the government are the reason that our government continues to grow out of control. If there was no government at all these same people would be the instigators and trouble makers preying on other people unchecked. The meek and weak would have no peace and no protection.

TBG

Not exactly... with NO government ("authority" through force and violence), "these same people" would not have the "authority" to do what you surmise. They would be rendered pretty much impotent without that lack of "authority." Organization and voluntary cooperation can and will be successful once people free their mind of the superstition of government/authority. Once the people are no longer "superstitious," then the "rulers" will have no legitimacy. Peace and protection in no way equates to "government." Cling to "government" (no matter how small), and one clings to the belief that man was intended to be governed by those set apart from everyone else... that there are those who are ordained/elected/crowned/birthed to rule over their fellow human beings. That notion is the antithesis of FREEDOM.
 

The Big Guy

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2009
Messages
1,966
Location
Waco, TX
Not exactly... with NO government ("authority" through force and violence), "these same people" would not have the "authority" to do what you surmise. They would be rendered pretty much impotent without that lack of "authority." Organization and voluntary cooperation can and will be successful once people free their mind of the superstition of government/authority. Once the people are no longer "superstitious," then the "rulers" will have no legitimacy. Peace and protection in no way equates to "government." Cling to "government" (no matter how small), and one clings to the belief that man was intended to be governed by those set apart from everyone else... that there are those who are ordained/elected/crowned/birthed to rule over their fellow human beings. That notion is the antithesis of FREEDOM.

"Organization and voluntary cooperation". Isn't that a form of government? You equate these people to deriving their power from authority. The only civil authority is the Constitution which they ignore now. Would they not be even less likely to hold to moral restraint given the free for all of anarchy?

TBG
 

usmcmustang

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
Messages
393
Location
Las Vegas, NV & Southern Utah
"Organization and voluntary cooperation". Isn't that a form of government? You equate these people to deriving their power from authority. The only civil authority is the Constitution which they ignore now. Would they not be even less likely to hold to moral restraint given the free for all of anarchy?

TBG

Absolutely not !!! Government, by it's very nature/existence is violence... comply with the "laws" of the rulers or suffer the consequences - assault/kidnapping/caging/murder. This "government" you are clinging to is violent and evil, no matter where you believe it obtained it's "authority." You seem to believe that that's the only way humans can co-exist... have "rulers" in place that "rule" by force and threat of force. The "authority" you describe (like any authority) is a superstition that "lives" in the minds of those ruled and, of course, in the minds of the "rulers." How can you say that "organization and voluntary cooperation" is government? You seem to be continually missing the basic tenant of government. "Government" can do to you and me what no other person, persons, organization, etc., may morally do... assault, kill, steal, counterfeit, and you and the multitudes evidently believe (that superstition thing) they have the "right" to because of a constituion?... need I say more? And why does anarchy (no rulers) infer a "free for all?"... although I do like the FREE(dom) for ALL conotation.
 

The Big Guy

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2009
Messages
1,966
Location
Waco, TX
Absolutely not !!! Government, by it's very nature/existence is violence... comply with the "laws" of the rulers or suffer the consequences - assault/kidnapping/caging/murder. This "government" you are clinging to is violent and evil, no matter where you believe it obtained it's "authority." You seem to believe that that's the only way humans can co-exist... have "rulers" in place that "rule" by force and threat of force. The "authority" you describe (like any authority) is a superstition that "lives" in the minds of those ruled and, of course, in the minds of the "rulers." How can you say that "organization and voluntary cooperation" is government? You seem to be continually missing the basic tenant of government. "Government" can do to you and me what no other person, persons, organization, etc., may morally do... assault, kill, steal, counterfeit, and you and the multitudes evidently believe (that superstition thing) they have the "right" to because of a constituion?... need I say more? And why does anarchy (no rulers) infer a "free for all?"... although I do like the FREE(dom) for ALL conotation.

First of all I have never said our current government is not without severe problems, and getting worse. (Here I am on this forum working for my natural right to self defense.) I Merely state that a system of no government would be worse for the average person then the constitutional government that I would have.

Under the system you desire it would take but a short time and we would revert to a feudal system with groups of warlords and self proclaimed leaders and their followers (criminals) preying upon the people. They would take what you have with force of violence and there is not much you could do about it.

You indicate that we have no control over our governments. Very little at this time, you are correct in that belief. That does not mean that we can't have control over them. We have what we have because people are unwilling to stand against the tyranny. Those that are unwilling to pay the price now are the same people that would be victimized by the marauders of Anarchy.

Correcting what we now have and reverting to the constitutional government that the founding fathers envisioned would not be all that hard if we could get the great masses to learn to say one simple word, NO!

There are 3 good ways to say NO, and bring the government under control.

1. Civil disobedience. (Don't obey unconstitutional and immoral laws)
2. Jury nullification. (Don't allow the government to convict people based on unconstitutional and immoral laws, you have that right as a juror)
3. Vote. (Turn the rascals out and put honorable people in.)

You have never heard me say that government has the right to "assault, kill, steal, counterfeit." They clearly don't have a "right". Do those in government get away with it? Far too often except in those increasingly rare cases where justice works.

Yes, I believe in a government of, for, and by the people. The key here is "by the people." This is "organization and voluntary cooperation."

You ask me "And why does anarchy (no rulers) infer a "free for all?" I will explain it like this. I have always known that people can, and do, commit evil acts. I believed that all people were generally good however. I now realize that there are many people in this world that have absolutely no redeeming qualities. They are by their very nature thoroughly evil. History proves this. You can also toss in the people who believe that they are entitled. These people believe that what is theirs is theirs and what is yours is theirs.

If all of us were saints, then you're way would certainly be the best. Nothing else would be needed. I wish you were right.

TBG
 

usmcmustang

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
Messages
393
Location
Las Vegas, NV & Southern Utah
First of all I have never said our current government is not without severe problems, and getting worse. (Here I am on this forum working for my natural right to self defense.) I Merely state that a system of no government would be worse for the average person then the constitutional government that I would have.

Under the system you desire it would take but a short time and we would revert to a feudal system with groups of warlords and self proclaimed leaders and their followers (criminals) preying upon the people. They would take what you have with force of violence and there is not much you could do about it.

You indicate that we have no control over our governments. Very little at this time, you are correct in that belief. That does not mean that we can't have control over them. We have what we have because people are unwilling to stand against the tyranny. Those that are unwilling to pay the price now are the same people that would be victimized by the marauders of Anarchy.

Correcting what we now have and reverting to the constitutional government that the founding fathers envisioned would not be all that hard if we could get the great masses to learn to say one simple word, NO!

There are 3 good ways to say NO, and bring the government under control.

1. Civil disobedience. (Don't obey unconstitutional and immoral laws)
2. Jury nullification. (Don't allow the government to convict people based on unconstitutional and immoral laws, you have that right as a juror)
3. Vote. (Turn the rascals out and put honorable people in.)

You have never heard me say that government has the right to "assault, kill, steal, counterfeit." They clearly don't have a "right". Do those in government get away with it? Far too often except in those increasingly rare cases where justice works.

Yes, I believe in a government of, for, and by the people. The key here is "by the people." This is "organization and voluntary cooperation."

You ask me "And why does anarchy (no rulers) infer a "free for all?" I will explain it like this. I have always known that people can, and do, commit evil acts. I believed that all people were generally good however. I now realize that there are many people in this world that have absolutely no redeeming qualities. They are by their very nature thoroughly evil. History proves this. You can also toss in the people who believe that they are entitled. These people believe that what is theirs is theirs and what is yours is theirs.

If all of us were saints, then you're way would certainly be the best. Nothing else would be needed. I wish you were right.

TBG


With or without government, people will continue to be "people." "Bad" people will still exist, as will "good" people. What would "disapper" is the superstition held in the minds of the "good" people that there is this "thing" (government) that has the right (authority) to "take what you have with force and violence.... as well as assault, kidnapp, cage, murder, etc.,etc. In a "no government" society, just like in a government one, there will be "bad" people attempting to prey upon others. The difference being, those "happy" living in a "government society" have been indoctrinated into a superstition that has them truly believing that government has the right to assault them, steal from them, etc., etc. And even your limited, constitutional government would ultimately have that "authority," no? If you ask peope if they have the right to do the same, i.e., assault or steal from a fellow human being, they'd invaribly answer no. And so you ask them, if you don't have that right, how can you give (by voting, petitioning, or however) someone else (government?) that right? What would make their acts any more right or moral than what you have said you have no right to do? How can you bestow/transfer/bequeath a right you don't morally have? That's when they begin to understand (hopefully) that this predator you speak of IS government, regardless of how many other "predators" there may or will be out there. They know what the predator intends for them... assault, theft, kidnapping, murder, etc... is wrong and they feel no "sense" (superstition) that such pretators have any right or authority over them and so most always resist... unless the pretator is the government. And it is their belief (superstition) that it's all right and moral for the govrnment to do what is not right for any other "predator" to do. When people consciously realize that this particular predator (government) would have no AUTHORITY over them if they relieved their minds of this irrational superstition that government in fact exists... that this "thing" has authority over them. This superstition is what makes them "see" government differently than all the other "predators" out there who would assault, steal, kidnap, etc., and what makes the vast majority obey this authority. They believe government has the right (authority) to do "bad" things that they believe themselves and others do not. They will resist assault and theft from all but government, believing government has some inherent authority to assault and steal. It's really a bit bizarre the way this superstition of authority has people marching in lock-step to the tune of "My Country 'tis of thee."

I understand you can imagine no society without a government, and you see our constitution as it was 200+ years ago as a most perfect framework for government, only perverted by people over these many years. But really, even before it's "perversion" it was a "framework" for allowing force and violence in order for one class of people to rule over another. That's what government IS... no matter how small or large, because that is the very definition of what government IS. I'm thinking you really don't want this thing everyone calls "government." You want some other "thing" that isn't based on force and violence and you want to call it "government." You can't do that.
 

usmcmustang

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
Messages
393
Location
Las Vegas, NV & Southern Utah
Just to be clear…

If one cannot admit that government does what no other person or institution has the “authority” to do, i.e., violate and steal from others, ergo the true definition of government; then there can never be any true discussion concerning an alternative. Because of peoples’ perceived fear of what their community, town, country or world would be like without government, they cling to the notion that this “authority” is all well and good, even though it defies common logic basic criticism. And the logic and criticism is this: how on earth can it be okay (right) for this “thing” called government to do things that no others can do to one another, i.e., violate the person and steal from the person?… both examples of not adhering to the two fundamental and moral principles on which we can surely all agree – the non- initiation of aggression and the respect for property rights. For some “superstitious” reason, most all believe the government is immune from adhering to those two principles. No amount of “lessor” government will “cure” this evident contradiction in thinking. Government, no matter how small or no matter how well contrived, will always use force and violence as a means to an end… always has… always will. That’s what makes all governments “evil” and not “good.” If it were you or I assaulting and extorting those around us, we would be called “evil,” but believing in “authority”…this superstition we have… turns the world upside down and more than not view government as “good.”
 

De5115

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 12, 2013
Messages
36
Location
Lost Wages, NV
I agree. The thrift store... I'm sorry. I lost where this thred had to do with OC at a thrift store about 10 posts ago.
:uhoh:
 
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