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Florida Judge flips S. Ct. logic, holds concealed carry law allows open carry ban

Mike

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http://www.guns.com/2015/02/19/florida-court-upholds-state-open-carry-ban

Comment from OpenCarry.org's co-founder Mike Stollenwerk: "Kind of a curious judicial result (holding that banning open carry is not protected by the Second Amendment) considering that the Supreme Court reasoned in the landmark Heller decision that open carry was the protected right, and that concealed carry bans were presumptively lawful."
 

77zach

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Am I wrong in that obiter dicta is not binding? Other obiter dicta in other courts say we have no right at all so isn't the Norman kourt free to do what they want? The Fl Supreme Kourt in 1941 said that requiring a license at all was unconstitutional, at least for white people. They ignore that too and that case was from this state on the carry issue.

No, it's not strange at all and I and others predicted this result EXACTLY. I'm grateful for Fl carry and as long as it doesn't take away from legislative efforts I'm all for it, to expose the illegitimacy of our rulers. It's just extremely frustrating that we'll be waiting so long (another two years at least) only to be disappointed again. We have a pro OC governor. And even if you have an NRA "A" rated GOP governor it is no guarantee at all they'll let OC become law. No, the focus needs to be on licensed OC in Tallahassee, ASAP.
 
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tonygreene113

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Taken down by a tight t-shirt?

I might have read the OP's original article from guns site. However somewhere around the lower end of the article it states something about some clown taking a video of Norman walking around with a tight shirt which basically "printed" him.
Because his shirt wasn't baggy enough to "conceal" his weapon he was arrested and possibly the tool anti-gun freak gave the video to the police.
 

ixtow

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I might have read the OP's original article from guns site. However somewhere around the lower end of the article it states something about some clown taking a video of Norman walking around with a tight shirt which basically "printed" him.
Because his shirt wasn't baggy enough to "conceal" his weapon he was arrested and possibly the tool anti-gun freak gave the video to the police.
Printing was legislated from the bench, why not everything else...
 

StogieC

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The case is now on appeal to the Florida Supreme Court and all Jurisdiction Briefs have been filed. Next the court will decide if it will review the case.
Supreme Court Filings:

Date Docketed
Description
Date Due
Filed By
Notes
04/13/2015Jurisdiction Initial Brief PT Dale Lee Norman BY: PT Eric J. Friday 797901
05/01/2015State's Jurisdiction Answer Brief05/08/2015RS State Of Florida BY: RS Consiglia Terenzio 656879
 

77zach

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The case is now on appeal to the Florida Supreme Court and all Jurisdiction Briefs have been filed. Next the court will decide if it will review the case.
Supreme Court Filings:

Date Docketed
Description
Date Due
Filed By
Notes
04/13/2015Jurisdiction Initial Brief PT Dale Lee Norman BY: PT Eric J. Friday 797901
05/01/2015State's Jurisdiction Answer Brief05/08/2015RS State Of Florida BY: RS Consiglia Terenzio 656879
While there is only a 1% chance this ends in open carry as a right, I'd say there is a 90% we get a "right" to a license to carry a concealed weapon..yawn. However, if Florida keeps its present trajectory this will be useful as the state will eventually try to get rid of the "shall issue" system with a may issue system but they won't able to. As far as I can tell, people thought this could end in OC because historically, a license is a privilege to do something illegal, and the fundamental right cannot be a crime. This is true, but as Eugene Volokh has said, the 2nd amendment is a "second class" right. Just as you have a right to build an addition on your house or get a new roof, you need to get a building permit before you do so. It's ok to treat the right to bear arms as a pseudo right if the infringements are "reasonable" for "safety".

This is what you get when you vote unwisely vote. They crap on your rights and install "judges" who agree with it.
 

press1280

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The case is now on appeal to the Florida Supreme Court and all Jurisdiction Briefs have been filed. Next the court will decide if it will review the case.
Supreme Court Filings:

Date Docketed
Description
Date Due
Filed By
Notes
04/13/2015Jurisdiction Initial Brief PT Dale Lee Norman BY: PT Eric J. Friday 797901
05/01/2015State's Jurisdiction Answer Brief05/08/2015RS State Of Florida BY: RS Consiglia Terenzio 656879
Do we know what the timetable is for the FL Supremes' decision on taking the case or not?
 

77zach

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Do we know what the timetable is for the FL Supremes' decision on taking the case or not?
I can't find anything that gives a timetable. Part of the merit briefing will be mooted once the governor signs SB 290 but I imagine they'll still be interested in the conflict between the 3rd and 4th DCA and take it up. If what the 4th said is true about Crane no longer being good in light of Heller and McDonald they may not though; only a coolaide drinker would think we'll get OC out of this. The ridiculousness of the last decision should get rid of any doubt about that.
 

press1280

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I can't find anything that gives a timetable. Part of the merit briefing will be mooted once the governor signs SB 290 but I imagine they'll still be interested in the conflict between the 3rd and 4th DCA and take it up. If what the 4th said is true about Crane no longer being good in light of Heller and McDonald they may not though; only a coolaide drinker would think we'll get OC out of this. The ridiculousness of the last decision should get rid of any doubt about that.
How would SB 290 partially moot this case?
 

77zach

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How would SB 290 partially moot this case?
It does make some of the initial brief on merits inaccurate as it relates to the OC question/rights question. For Norman the man, it doesn't matter because they have to rule on what the law was when he broke the "law".

Right now concealed carry is a crime and having a CWFL is an affirmative defense, see notalawyer's discussion in the thread "2016 licensed OC bill". Once the governor signs SB 290, concealed carry will not be a crime but an element of carrying a concealed weapon without a license.

https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2015/0290/BillText/er/HTML

But again this just might affect the initial brief. However, part of the strength of Norman's argument was that our right to bear arms was a CRIME by the letter of the law. 790.01 and 790.053 made concealed and open carry crimes respectively, by the letter of the law. Now, concealed carry is just a crime if you don't have the license. A distinction without a difference in real life as we must still "undergo a licensing procedure" to regain the right.

Our side thinks this is a good case for OC because we believe that a license requirement does not respect the right. We are correct. As far as I can tell though, nothing requires the FL SC to rule accordingly and we know that a majority will not agree with us philosophically. So in that respect, SB 290 doesn't really alter the conclusion.
 
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StogieC

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Florida Judge flips S. Ct. logic, holds concealed carry law allows open carry...

Zach and Press...,

All matters of fact and law relevant to the case are as they were on the date of the alleged offense. Mooting a case due to a change in law is a civil procedure, Norman is a criminal case..
 
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StogieC

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Florida Judge flips S. Ct. logic, holds concealed carry law allows open carry...

In the Mackey case we got a bad decision, this gave us the juice we needed in the legislature to change the law.

Even if we loose Norman, we ain't done by a mile.
 
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press1280

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Zach and Press...,

All matters of fact and law relevant to the case are as they were on the date of the alleged offense. Mooting a case due to a change in law is a civil procedure, Norman is a criminal case..
Correct. Does anyone know how long the Fl Supremes take to decide whether to grant review? I've been digging and can't find anything. I don't know if they do a "conference" like SCOTUS where they decide to take cases or not. It would be nice if they don't simply sit on it for months only to deny review.
 

StogieC

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The FL Supreme Court will usually decide on taking jurisdiction within 90 days and usually issue decisions on completed (submitted) cases within 4 to 5 months... But! On some cases, especially when ideologies collide, they take considerably longer to fight it out behind closed doors.

I wouldn't try to guess.
 

77zach

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Even if we loose Norman, we ain't done by a mile.
I think some good will come of it if they hear it; AG already concedes there is a right, so then we can get 'super' shall issue lol. Just not OC. Maybe if you hit over and over and over that banning OC by law abiding citizens can't fly because the "ignorance is bliss argument" ( the state's argument, essentially) is not regulating the manner of bearing arms but infringing on the right, you could squeeze it out, doubt it though.

Maybe Texas going OC will give some juice to you in the legislature.
 
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StogieC

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i think some good will come of it if they hear it; ag already concedes there is a right, so then we can get 'super' shall issue lol. Just not oc. Maybe if you hit over and over and over that banning oc by law abiding citizens because the "ignorance is bliss argument" ( the state's argument, essentially) is not regulating the manner of bearing arms but infringing on the right, you could squeeze it out, doubt it though.

Maybe texas going oc will give some juice to you in the legislature.
qft
 

press1280

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The FL Supreme Court will usually decide on taking jurisdiction within 90 days and usually issue decisions on completed (submitted) cases within 4 to 5 months... But! On some cases, especially when ideologies collide, they take considerably longer to fight it out behind closed doors.

I wouldn't try to guess.
Still no action by the FL Supremes. I looked at several other cases sitting on their docket and some have been sitting close to a year. This could take a Looong time........
 

77zach

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Still no action by the FL Supremes. I looked at several other cases sitting on their docket and some have been sitting close to a year. This could take a Looong time........
They spend their time fiddling away with death penalty appeals. If they take it they also have to figure out how to say a privilege is a right while still seeming legit. When Norman loses, I will be surprised if there are not 4 opinions written. Some will say there is no right at all, others there is a right but it can be banned, and others there is a right subject to "reasonable" regulations (making it a privilege), and then maybe a little disagreement as to what is reasonable. The FL constitution allows anything to be "reasonable" with enough torture.
 
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