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Delaware firearm laws

Mike

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OK, so still, the only locality in DE that has a grandafthered open cary ban is Dover? And even in Dover if I hold a DE permit to conceal or an accepted permit to conceal from another state you can open carry in Dover?

Please confirm, thanks.
 

stephpd

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Mike wrote:
OK, so still, the only locality in DE that has a grandafthered open cary ban is Dover? And even in Dover if I hold a DE permit to conceal or an accepted permit to conceal from another state you can open carry in Dover?

Please confirm, thanks.
It depends on one's interpretation of the law. Most believe that since it's a license to Carry a Concealed Deadly Weapon then that's all that is allowed in Dover.

Since open carry is legal in the rest of the state and Dover is the only place that is grandfathered, it would seem that OC isn't legal in that city.

I haven't met anyone willing to lose their rights, by being found guilty and a felon, willing to test the law. Most folks in De that have researched this peculiar law think that only Concealed Carry, with a CCDW, is allowed in Dover. No OC even with a CCDW.

And since many of us at DELOC have acquired a CCDW, it would seem that it's not as restrictive and hard to get as it once was. You still have to jump through a bunch of hoops to get it but it is possible.

I think Rob may have interpreted the ordinance incorrectly, it states:

(6) State license. Possession, carrying or use in conformity with a license issued by the state for that purpose in areas approved by the chief of police, and only then when used in such a manner that shall not endanger persons or property.

Conforming with the license would indicate that the gun would have to be concealed. I'll let him know that his interpretation may be incorrect.

Thanks.

Steve
 

aadvark

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I was very surprised to learn that Delaware, being wedged inbetween New Jersey and Maryland allowed open carry.

I did not know that, but I have no intentions to go to this part of the Country, so it never crossed my mind to learn.
 

stephpd

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aadvark wrote:
I was very surprised to learn that Delaware, being wedged inbetween New Jersey and Maryland allowed open carry.

I did not know that, but I have no intentions to go to this part of the Country, so it never crossed my mind to learn.
Imagine my surprise to find out that open carry in Texas was illegal.




Delaware is more closely related to Pennsylvania then either Maryland or New Jersey. One of it's nicknames is 'The Lower Three' (counties of PA). But DE has been, since the Civil War, if not longer, a divided state. The northern county is more Democrat with strong ties to Philly, the 'Lower, Slower, Delaware' (southern two counties) are more Republican and has close ties to the Eastern shore of Maryland, very rural.

Maryland seems to be ruled by the area around Baltimore. Once you get away from there it's actually a very gun friendly state, lots of hunting. With a state motto of 'The Free State' you'd think they'd be more inclined to be a shall issue state, but again Baltimore rules the state.

New Jersey has always had closer ties, and politics are similar, to that of New York City. But much like Maryland the rural parts don't seem to have control of politics. Same can be said of New York State. The big cities rule the states.
 

Mike

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stephpd wrote:
Mike wrote:
OK, so still, the only locality in DE that has a grandafthered open cary ban is Dover? And even in Dover if I hold a DE permit to conceal or an accepted permit to conceal from another state you can open carry in Dover?

Please confirm, thanks.
It depends on one's interpretation of the law. Most believe that since it's a license to Carry a Concealed Deadly Weapon then that's all that is allowed in Dover.

Since open carry is legal in the rest of the state and Dover is the only place that is grandfathered, it would seem that OC isn't legal in that city.

I haven't met anyone willing to lose their rights, by being found guilty and a felon
OK, good analysis above, but why would a person become a felon for violating a Dover ordinance? What is the ordiance's penalty? Can you povide link to ordiance?
 

stephpd

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Mike wrote:
stephpd wrote:
Mike wrote:
OK, so still, the only locality in DE that has a grandafthered open cary ban is Dover? And even in Dover if I hold a DE permit to conceal or an accepted permit to conceal from another state you can open carry in Dover?

Please confirm, thanks.
It depends on one's interpretation of the law. Most believe that since it's a license to Carry a Concealed Deadly Weapon then that's all that is allowed in Dover.

Since open carry is legal in the rest of the state and Dover is the only place that is grandfathered, it would seem that OC isn't legal in that city.

I haven't met anyone willing to lose their rights, by being found guilty and a felon
OK, good analysis above, but why would a person become a felon for violating a Dover ordinance? What is the ordiance's penalty? Can you povide link to ordiance?
You are probably correct that it wouldn't be a felony offense. I'm not sure what the penalty would be for violating a local ordinance, since none is listed. I have no idea what the DA would do, or what charges could be filed. My bad.

But you could possibly loose your CCDW, and that could be a disqualifier for any other CCW that you may have or attempt to get or renew.

The link to Dover City code is Chapter 70 section 2

http://www.municode.com/Resources/gateway.asp?pid=13910&sid=8

The only penalty listed is forfeiture of your weapon 70, 2,f
 

Mike

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stephpd wrote:
You are probably correct that it wouldn't be a felony offense. I'm not sure what the penalty would be for violating a local ordinance, since none is listed. My bad. . . .
The only penalty listed is forfeiture of your weapon 70, 2,f
Looks like then in that case the penalty is just a fine in addition to forfeiture of gun for open carrying in Dover:

"Sec. 1-17. General penalty; separate offenses; unpaid fines.


Whenever in this Code or in any ordinance of the city any act or omission is prohibited or is made or declared to be unlawful or a violation, or whenever in said Code or ordinance the doing of any act is required or the failure to do any act is declared to be unlawful or a violation, and no specific penalty is provided therefor, the violation of any such provision of this Code or any ordinance shall be punishable by a fine of not less than $25.00, nor more than $1,000.00. Unless specifically provided otherwise, or the context thereof so dictates, each day any violation of any provision of this Code or any ordinance shall continue shall constitute a separate offense. Fines not paid within 14 days of the day the fine was issued, including the day the fine was issued, shall be automatically doubled in amount."

Is there anything in state law that would trigger forfeiture of your concealed carry license for violation of a local ordinance such as this which did not have any possibility of jail time?

I'm not suggesting people open carry in Dover, but it since it could happen by accidentally straying into Dover while traveling in and through Delaware, it might be nice to know the criminal penalty risk in all aspects.
 

stephpd

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Mike wrote
Is there anything in state law that would trigger forfeiture of your concealed carry license for violation of a local ordinance such as this which did not have any possibility of jail time?

I'm not suggesting people open carry in Dover, but it since it could happen by accidentally straying into Dover while traveling in and through Delaware, it might be nice to know the criminal penalty risk in all aspects.
I'm not the best person to be answering all of these, ijusam is better at this then me by a long shot, but I'll try.

I don't know of anything that could trigger a revocation of a license, whether in state or out of state. But being a 'may issue' there is the good moral character clause of obtaining and renewing a CCDW in DE.

http://delcode.delaware.gov/title11/c005/sc07/index.shtml

§ 1441. License to carry concealed deadly weapons. (a) A person of full age and good moral character desiring to be licensed to carry a concealed deadly weapon for personal protection or the protection of the person's property may be licensed to do so when the following conditions have been strictly complied with:






We have at least a couple members of DELOC that have been denied a CCDW for much less. During the application or renewal of the license it always goes before the states AG and a Judge. Either of them can deny based on anything found in your record. And these records have every instance of police involvement. It doesn't even have to be a violation of any code to make it into your record. So, at least for DE residents, violating this code could, and probably would, be used against you in acquiring a CCDW, or renewal.


I'm not sure what other states use as far as issuing or renewing a license but I'd think that at least some have something sililar. I know that the PA LTCF has a similar good moral charachter clause. I'm just not sure how up to date they keep their records for out of state incidents.


The problem I see would be more for a DE resident. If your DE CCDW renewal is ever denied it's possible that it could effect any other license s you may have. Many of them have a space on the form for being denied a license from another state. So the possiblity does exist that you could loose many, if not all of your licenses because of something like this. More so for DE residents, but it could happen to others as well. I just don't know how intense every states record keeking is.
 

junglebob

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I'm curious how difficult is getting a Delaware LTC for a resident. I noticed that you need to publish your name and address and have 5 people give personal references. They seem to be doing what they can to discourage you from even applying. I am sure there are those in the "right denied" state of Illinois that would like something similar if LTC legislation passed here. Is it usually only those rich and well connected that get one.

How long is the required training course. I have a Utah non-resident LTC that I got after an evening training course.
 

Mike

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junglebob wrote:
I'm curious how difficult is getting a Delaware LTC for a resident.
Good question - funny thing is though, Delawareis a shall issue state for non-residents - just mail off for your permit from Virginia, Florida, or Utah etc!

Have Delaware residents tried pointing this out to your state reps/sens and ask them to make Delaware a shall issue state?
 

stephpd

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Mike wrote:
junglebob wrote:
I'm curious how difficult is getting a Delaware LTC for a resident.
Good question - funny thing is though, Delawareis a shall issue state for non-residents - just mail off for your permit from Virginia, Florida, or Utah etc!

Have Delaware residents tried pointing this out to your state reps/sens and ask them to make Delaware a shall issue state?
De may have some dumb parts to it's laws on obtaining a License, but it's not only possible but we've had a fairly good percentage of the members at DELOC get one. I'd say that 90-98% are approved.

Shall issue was tried back when everyone else was doing it. The problem was that the clean bill was loaded up with all sorts of restrictions. Many of our politicians didn't like the way it was heading and just tabled it. If you ever get the chance look at all the stuff crammed into the laws for states like Florida or Texas. Can't carry in so many places to make it worth less then what they had.

DE decided to go about handing out licenses differently. They just held that the laws were fine and the only change needed was AG's and Judges that didn't deny just because they could. So instead of only handing them out to friends or people connected they said that the state had to show good reason to deny. If they couldn't prove that the person was of good moral character then they must approve.

The letter we get from the AG says as much. Usually it's clearly written that they couldn't find any reason to reject the application, so approved, though they don't say that. Same for the Judge. Unless they can show that they have a good reason to deny they approve the application.

It would be nice if these two steps, (AG and Judge) along with stuff like putting your name in the paper could be removed from the process. I just don't think it's likely to happen without further restrictions on where you can carry. Places like bars, banks, restaurants, malls etc could all be added to any new bill.

Reading all the laws on what, where and when you can carry for some of these shall issue states just makes my head spin. And I, for one, would rather deal with what we have then have to learn and abide by all those other rules.
 

Mike

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stephpd wrote:
Mike wrote:
junglebob wrote:
I'm curious how difficult is getting a Delaware LTC for a resident.
Good question - funny thing is though, Delawareis a shall issue state for non-residents - just mail off for your permit from Virginia, Florida, or Utah etc!

Have Delaware residents tried pointing this out to your state reps/sens and ask them to make Delaware a shall issue state?
De may have some dumb parts to it's laws on obtaining a License, but it's not only possible but we've had a fairly good percentage of the members at DELOC get one. I'd say that 90-98% are approved.
So, do you think the DE permit issue process is "reasonable" then, like say Alabama, Iowa, and Connecticut - and that Delaware is a "do issue" state? See http://www.nraila.org/Issues/Articles/Read.aspx?id=198&issue=003(showing CT, AL, and IA as "do issue states").

If so, then maybe the NRA needs to be lobbied to upgrade your state's categorization from "Capricious-Issue" to "do issue"!
 

stephpd

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Mike wrote:
stephpd wrote:
Mike wrote:
junglebob wrote:
I'm curious how difficult is getting a Delaware LTC for a resident.
Good question - funny thing is though, Delawareis a shall issue state for non-residents - just mail off for your permit from Virginia, Florida, or Utah etc!

Have Delaware residents tried pointing this out to your state reps/sens and ask them to make Delaware a shall issue state?
De may have some dumb parts to it's laws on obtaining a License, but it's not only possible but we've had a fairly good percentage of the members at DELOC get one. I'd say that 90-98% are approved.
So, do you think the DE permit issue process is "reasonable" then, like say Alabama, Iowa, and Connecticut - and that Delaware is a "do issue" state? See http://www.nraila.org/Issues/Articles/Read.aspx?id=198&issue=003 (showing CT, AL, and IA as "do issue states").

If so, then maybe the NRA needs to be lobbied to upgrade your state's categorization from "Capricious-Issue" to "do issue"!
No I don't think the process is reasonable. There are quite a few things I find objectionable. It's costly, time consuming, and with having to put a notice in the paper, an invasion of privacy.

The bigger question is it possible given the current state of local (state) politics? I don't think we have enough pro gun politicians to clean up the current laws or get a clean shall issue bill to pass. The current way it's being administered is way better then it was a few decades ago. I know that just going by the members of DELOC is a rather small representative sampling, but most have been successful in obtaining a CCDW.

Of those that were denied one has some things in his record, dealing with the police, that the court and AG used against him, although none were criminal or a violation of any code. One was finally approved once he followed a few simple steps to prove he was a DE resident. (Military, stationed in Dover and just needed to change his drivers license to DE). The third is still pending.

Every other member that has applied has been approved on the first try. That doesn't happen in states like MD or NJ. And as you noted, we do have reciprocity with the two biggest states for getting non resident licenses, FL and UT. That alone should move us away from those other states. Or that we are an open carry state, except for Dover, should separate us from those states.


As to the NRA's arbitrary break up of the states, we don't deserve to be put in the same group as MD and NJ. Years ago we had that reputation. But the experiences of those that post would seem to indicate that DE does issue far more then those other states.


You'd think that having the ex president of the NRA from our state he would know these things. But as far as petitioning the NRA to make changes to some silly map doesn't mean much to me. Just a slight irritation that they lump us in with some of those oppressive states. It's just not true.
 

Mike

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stephpd wrote:
No I don't think the process is reasonable. ...As to the NRA's arbitrary break up of the states, we don't deserve to be put in the same group as MD and NJ.
huh? Your post contradicts itself.

Do you think DE should be put in the "reasonable issue" column or not?
 

stephpd

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Mike wrote:
stephpd wrote:
No I don't think the process is reasonable. ...As to the NRA's arbitrary break up of the states, we don't deserve to be put in the same group as MD and NJ.
huh? Your post contradicts itself.

Do you think DE should be put in the "reasonable issue" column or not?
Not really. There are parts of the process that I think are unreasonable. But that doesn't make it impossible, just a pain. This is a subjective issue, while issuance is an objective issue. And DE has changed it's objective stance without any changes in it's subjective laws. And it clearly shows up in the number of applications approved. Earlier this year one of the members talked to the AG's office and was informed that they were backlogged with over 1000 apps/ month. I have to believe that many were approved.

And therein lies the difference. Although our laws haven't changed the process and approvals have gone up astronomically. With this subtle change we have gone from highly unlikely to be approved to very likely that you will be approved. That difference, alone, with reciprocity and open carry, should move us away from such repressive states like MD and NJ. They seldom, if ever issue a CCW. You still need to know someone in those states. It's very hard to find an average citizen in those states with a license. While in DE, the people I've met that have gotten their license have no special connection to anyone in the Government.

I think these are two separate issues. One has to do with the laws and all that's involved. And the other has to do with the chance that you'll get license.




There are many areas dealing with firearms that DE is vastly different then our neighbors.
No need for an FFL for any FTF firearms sale. (gun show loophole). That applies to all handguns, rifles and shotguns.
The police were chastised for keeping an illegal gun database. Seems they were keeping them longer then allowed by law (90 days max).
We can open carry handguns in a car without any license as long as it's in plain view.
Few state restrictions on where we can't carry.(courthouses, police stations)
We have reciprocity with several of the states that issue non resident licenses.
No waiting period or permit required to purchase firearms.(insta check, in and out within 30 minutes)

Our attitude towards firearms comes much closer to VA and PA then the rest of the north east states. I haven't looked at the gun laws of VA but I know we have much less written then PA and their UFA. That thing is like a book. Our gun laws could all fit on one page, most of it being for getting a CCDW.
 

Mike

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stephpd wrote:
Mike wrote:
stephpd wrote:
No I don't think the process is reasonable. ...As to the NRA's arbitrary break up of the states, we don't deserve to be put in the same group as MD and NJ.
huh? Your post contradicts itself.

Do you think DE should be put in the "reasonable issue" column or not?
Not really. There are parts of the process that I think are unreasonable. But that doesn't make it impossible, just a pain. This is a subjective issue . . .
Focus - should the NRA code DE as a "reasonable issue" state like Alabama and Connecticut on their map or not?
 

stephpd

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Mike wrote
Focus - should the NRA code DE as a "reasonable issue" state like Alabama and Connecticut on their map or not?
Yes, if they are 'may issue' states that allow their citizens to receive a CCW. Then DE should be moved into that category.

But if the objective is to pass shall issue laws it must remain a clean bill, without all the restrictions on where we can carry.
 
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