bobcul
Regular Member
Below is an e-mail letter with attached narrative (part of a much longer travelog with some photos) describing an Open Carry interaction at a Xanterra Parks and Resorts facility at Yellowstone park.
Your comments and suggestions are welcome.
Xanterra contact information is at the bottom - unfortunately I could not find a corporate e-mail address, only the one for yellowstone.
BobCul
------------------
Gentlemen,
The narrative below is part of a travelog I have written about our recent travels. A full, much longer version with this and many other short visit stories will soon be posted on the web site at the address on the card provided to Joe Caruso at the Yellowstone Lodge, and also below.
To reiterate, your representative found himself in a somewhat awkward situation and after a rocky start we had a good conversation on the situation at hand. In the narrative I have discussed the often cited reasons for trying to establish a safe zone by disarming the occupants - that unfortunately makes them all easy targets if someone decides to attack them.
Again I encourage Xanterra to change this policy. As a quick suggestion, I would remove the signs and not prohibit individuals from carry sidearms, openly or concealed. You currently never see those carrying concealed sidearms, even with the signs if they choose to ignore them. You will never detect the persons with evil intent until they act, regardless of a sign or policy. There is always a staff member capable of pleasantly conversing with the open carrier, like Joe Caruso did with me, to assure himself that the individual was acting properly and rationally. I think you will find that almost all of those open carrying a sidearm will be very friendly and willing to engage in conversation. If you want further firsthand reporting on such an encounter, talk to Joe Caruso the assistant cafeteria manager at the Yellowstone Old Faithful Lodge. He is now experienced in such matters.
You can also talk to me.
Sincerely,
(SIG LINES DELETED)
=============
Confrontation at Yellowstone
On Saturday, July 21, 2012, we headed north to Yellowstone to see the sights. Stopping at West Thumb, Cathy visited the Yellowstone Association shop and I loitered outside - open carrying. We then went on a hike around the boardwalk at the thermal features. I have discussed this area walk in previous travelogs. Many folks passed by, including many foreign tourists and a few rangers. No big deal and a few friendly conversations ensued. Next we headed further north for a 4 mile hike. Two hours of vigorous walking was quite comfortable with the Fobus paddle holster and the 1911 without the light.
We finished our walk about 8:15 pm, so we immediately headed into the Old Faithful area for some dinner because it was getting late. We went into the Yellowstone General Store to check out the snack bar. Looking carefully, we saw there were no firearm restrictions but the snack bar was about to close and the food selection was limited. The very friendly staff recommended the Old Faithful Lodge cafeteria which had a bigger selection and stayed open later. They had no reaction to the openly carried sidearm. We walked to the lodge and saw no firearm restriction signs on the open doors, so we moved through the common lobby area and into the cafeteria to look at the selection boards. After several minutes of surveying the menus, we decided on our selections, got our meals and drinks and headed to the cashier.
While paying for our meals a fellow approached from my right and spoke; I thought to the cashiers, as they looked up at him. He said something along the lines of when you finish checking out step outside to have your meals. That sounded strange so I looked over at him and saw he was speaking to me. He had just started speaking without addressing me or gaining my attention before hand. Seeing my quizzical look he inferred correctly that I did not understand. He then said something about having a policy of not allowing firearms in the establishment. I informed him that I had looked for signage restricting this, as I am usually quite thorough in observing signs, but saw none. As an aside, the cash register clerk made some statements indicating that he understood my viewpoint and firearm position. Indeed, from our view as we moved away from the cashier and to the condiment stand in the dining room, there were clearly no signs on the entrance doors going directly into the dining room (though not the ones we entered the building by). We discussed the requirement for signage at all entrances and he acknowledged the apparent lack, thereof. But the cafeteria staff member said that he checked with the front desk management and the policy stands; he reiterated his request that we eat outside on the porch and not in the dining room. I will not go into details but I told him I objected to being required to leave the dining room and eat outside; it was a kind of “back of the bus moment”, yet I told him I would comply with his request. The exchange was quite cordial throughout.
We moved to the porch outside the dining room and even though there were no tables and chairs, we made due with some comfortable rockers and a great view of Old Faithful and a beautiful sunset with a very new moon setting behind the mountains. I took a few minutes to again visit the front entrance doors (by an outside route) and DID find some small square signs with a red circle and slash over a handgun and a brief notation referring to a Xanterra Parks & Resorts policy. Unfortunately, I did not have a camera at that time. I had not seen the signs when we first entered because the doors were PROPPED OPEN and the signs on the outside front of the doors COULD NOT BE SEEN from our direct approach to and through the doors. Yes, the front doors were posted but in a useless fashion and the side doors were not posted.
The person who confronted us was Joe Caruso, the assistant cafeteria manager, a very pleasant and professional young man. Xanterra does not hire fools. He again approached us after our meal (fair quality, by the way) and we had an extended conversation and I gave him my MCSM card and explained our reasons for open carrying. He appeared sympathetic and I gave him one of the Walk In The Park flyers (PDF file on the MCSM web site) and asked him several times to take my comments to Xanterra and suggested they should modify their policy. Joe then supplied me with comment cards. I have carefully checked the Xanterra web sites and can find no reference to any firearm or related policy. Times are changing and more folks will be carrying sidearm defense tools, especially in areas like Yellowstone.
Any organization which actively denies the carrying of personal defense tools should understand the potential liability of their actions. There obviously is a loss of business liability as I already have a short list of businesses I will avoid. I need to get some Gun Owner - business educational cards - printed up to explain this at future contacts. If a business chooses to exclude me and others from doing business with them, that is their choice. I guess there is also the safety and legal liability for Xanterra, but not the one they are thinking about when they ask their lawyers about this position. What is their liability if by denying self defense, in the event of an attack, an individual is more seriously hurt or killed? This hazard headed into the Old Faithful area for some dinner extends not only to the denied firearm carrier but to the whole room - they can not benefit from an individual defending himself and thus the whole group suffers. As we left the building I had the clear thought, that now the people there were in MORE DANGER because they were in a victim disarmament zone. If Xanterra is worried about the reaction of some of their guests who might be upset at the sight of someone carrying a self defense tool, I reminded Joe of the 8 oz. Bear Spray my wife was carrying. All of our encounters with tourists and rangers in the parks have been very positive, often resulting in conversations and curiosity satisfied.
If you care to contact Xanterra, here is the information to do so.
Xanterra Parks & Resorts - 6312 South Fiddlers Green Circle, Suite 600N
Greenwood Village, Colorado 80111 - Phone: 303.600.3400 - Fax: 303.600.3600
<http://www.xanterra.com/Corporate-Offices-350.html>
Specifically for Yellowstone; <info-ynp@xanterra.com>
Be kind to them. They are in the midst of an emotional reaction, denying firearm owners access to an area thinking it makes the area safer, and they will be bound up in a changing tide. Gentle and reasoned persuasion, and business changes, will educate them.
=============
Your comments and suggestions are welcome.
Xanterra contact information is at the bottom - unfortunately I could not find a corporate e-mail address, only the one for yellowstone.
BobCul
------------------
Gentlemen,
The narrative below is part of a travelog I have written about our recent travels. A full, much longer version with this and many other short visit stories will soon be posted on the web site at the address on the card provided to Joe Caruso at the Yellowstone Lodge, and also below.
To reiterate, your representative found himself in a somewhat awkward situation and after a rocky start we had a good conversation on the situation at hand. In the narrative I have discussed the often cited reasons for trying to establish a safe zone by disarming the occupants - that unfortunately makes them all easy targets if someone decides to attack them.
Again I encourage Xanterra to change this policy. As a quick suggestion, I would remove the signs and not prohibit individuals from carry sidearms, openly or concealed. You currently never see those carrying concealed sidearms, even with the signs if they choose to ignore them. You will never detect the persons with evil intent until they act, regardless of a sign or policy. There is always a staff member capable of pleasantly conversing with the open carrier, like Joe Caruso did with me, to assure himself that the individual was acting properly and rationally. I think you will find that almost all of those open carrying a sidearm will be very friendly and willing to engage in conversation. If you want further firsthand reporting on such an encounter, talk to Joe Caruso the assistant cafeteria manager at the Yellowstone Old Faithful Lodge. He is now experienced in such matters.
You can also talk to me.
Sincerely,
(SIG LINES DELETED)
=============
Confrontation at Yellowstone
On Saturday, July 21, 2012, we headed north to Yellowstone to see the sights. Stopping at West Thumb, Cathy visited the Yellowstone Association shop and I loitered outside - open carrying. We then went on a hike around the boardwalk at the thermal features. I have discussed this area walk in previous travelogs. Many folks passed by, including many foreign tourists and a few rangers. No big deal and a few friendly conversations ensued. Next we headed further north for a 4 mile hike. Two hours of vigorous walking was quite comfortable with the Fobus paddle holster and the 1911 without the light.
We finished our walk about 8:15 pm, so we immediately headed into the Old Faithful area for some dinner because it was getting late. We went into the Yellowstone General Store to check out the snack bar. Looking carefully, we saw there were no firearm restrictions but the snack bar was about to close and the food selection was limited. The very friendly staff recommended the Old Faithful Lodge cafeteria which had a bigger selection and stayed open later. They had no reaction to the openly carried sidearm. We walked to the lodge and saw no firearm restriction signs on the open doors, so we moved through the common lobby area and into the cafeteria to look at the selection boards. After several minutes of surveying the menus, we decided on our selections, got our meals and drinks and headed to the cashier.
While paying for our meals a fellow approached from my right and spoke; I thought to the cashiers, as they looked up at him. He said something along the lines of when you finish checking out step outside to have your meals. That sounded strange so I looked over at him and saw he was speaking to me. He had just started speaking without addressing me or gaining my attention before hand. Seeing my quizzical look he inferred correctly that I did not understand. He then said something about having a policy of not allowing firearms in the establishment. I informed him that I had looked for signage restricting this, as I am usually quite thorough in observing signs, but saw none. As an aside, the cash register clerk made some statements indicating that he understood my viewpoint and firearm position. Indeed, from our view as we moved away from the cashier and to the condiment stand in the dining room, there were clearly no signs on the entrance doors going directly into the dining room (though not the ones we entered the building by). We discussed the requirement for signage at all entrances and he acknowledged the apparent lack, thereof. But the cafeteria staff member said that he checked with the front desk management and the policy stands; he reiterated his request that we eat outside on the porch and not in the dining room. I will not go into details but I told him I objected to being required to leave the dining room and eat outside; it was a kind of “back of the bus moment”, yet I told him I would comply with his request. The exchange was quite cordial throughout.
We moved to the porch outside the dining room and even though there were no tables and chairs, we made due with some comfortable rockers and a great view of Old Faithful and a beautiful sunset with a very new moon setting behind the mountains. I took a few minutes to again visit the front entrance doors (by an outside route) and DID find some small square signs with a red circle and slash over a handgun and a brief notation referring to a Xanterra Parks & Resorts policy. Unfortunately, I did not have a camera at that time. I had not seen the signs when we first entered because the doors were PROPPED OPEN and the signs on the outside front of the doors COULD NOT BE SEEN from our direct approach to and through the doors. Yes, the front doors were posted but in a useless fashion and the side doors were not posted.
The person who confronted us was Joe Caruso, the assistant cafeteria manager, a very pleasant and professional young man. Xanterra does not hire fools. He again approached us after our meal (fair quality, by the way) and we had an extended conversation and I gave him my MCSM card and explained our reasons for open carrying. He appeared sympathetic and I gave him one of the Walk In The Park flyers (PDF file on the MCSM web site) and asked him several times to take my comments to Xanterra and suggested they should modify their policy. Joe then supplied me with comment cards. I have carefully checked the Xanterra web sites and can find no reference to any firearm or related policy. Times are changing and more folks will be carrying sidearm defense tools, especially in areas like Yellowstone.
Any organization which actively denies the carrying of personal defense tools should understand the potential liability of their actions. There obviously is a loss of business liability as I already have a short list of businesses I will avoid. I need to get some Gun Owner - business educational cards - printed up to explain this at future contacts. If a business chooses to exclude me and others from doing business with them, that is their choice. I guess there is also the safety and legal liability for Xanterra, but not the one they are thinking about when they ask their lawyers about this position. What is their liability if by denying self defense, in the event of an attack, an individual is more seriously hurt or killed? This hazard headed into the Old Faithful area for some dinner extends not only to the denied firearm carrier but to the whole room - they can not benefit from an individual defending himself and thus the whole group suffers. As we left the building I had the clear thought, that now the people there were in MORE DANGER because they were in a victim disarmament zone. If Xanterra is worried about the reaction of some of their guests who might be upset at the sight of someone carrying a self defense tool, I reminded Joe of the 8 oz. Bear Spray my wife was carrying. All of our encounters with tourists and rangers in the parks have been very positive, often resulting in conversations and curiosity satisfied.
If you care to contact Xanterra, here is the information to do so.
Xanterra Parks & Resorts - 6312 South Fiddlers Green Circle, Suite 600N
Greenwood Village, Colorado 80111 - Phone: 303.600.3400 - Fax: 303.600.3600
<http://www.xanterra.com/Corporate-Offices-350.html>
Specifically for Yellowstone; <info-ynp@xanterra.com>
Be kind to them. They are in the midst of an emotional reaction, denying firearm owners access to an area thinking it makes the area safer, and they will be bound up in a changing tide. Gentle and reasoned persuasion, and business changes, will educate them.
=============