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Complacency breeds mistakes...

5jeffro7

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2009
Messages
172
Location
Mountlake Terrace, Washington, USA
To make a long story short:

Having been OC for quite some time, and not having had an encounter for probably close to 2 years, it happened tonight!

Because of the heat, I tend to go to Martha Lake Park (164th in Lynnwood) to cool off after work, and have always OC'd. Tonight, I see the deputy walking around the park like he's looking for something/someone specific...damned if I was going to approach him & ask if he was looking for a MWAG :)

I returned to the main fishing dock & got my iphone set up to record the video, the only problem is the guy I gave it to knew nothing about much & managed to not even get the audio...but at least I remembered that part :)

Deputy walks out on the dock & starts making small talk with some of the people fishing, then, after about a minute, turns to me & states, "I see that you're carrying: I know that it's completely legal & you're within your rights, but so I know who I"m dealing with, can I please see some ID?

I explained that I had none on me (I'd left it locked in my vehicle, on purpose, as usual). He then asked for my name & date of birth. at this time, I couldn't remember if I had to ID myself or not, and quite frankly, didn't want to start pushing buttons that I wasn't 100% sure of, so relented telling him my name & date of birth.

The deputy also explained that he had a rookie with him & that he wanted to make sure the rookie understood the legality of open carry so there weren't problems in the future. After drooling over my gun (figuratively, of course), he shook my hand, thanked me & was on his way.

I'll probably take some heat for actually giving up my information, but I figure if he's going to approach me in the way he did, casually & without alarm, there's no need to start pushing buttons...all in all, a positive experience
 

Maine Expat

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 29, 2012
Messages
235
Location
Ukraine & Bangor Maine
Sounds like it went exactly as it should have. Informal, light, and friendly.

Just because we aren't REQUIRED to show ID doesn't mean we SHOULDN'T. You're a law abiding citizen with nothing to hide and there's no reason to go all Perry Mason on LEOs if they're just coming over to say hi. That rookie will remember this encounter and will likely make any future approaches with a lighter hand because of it.

I've said it before. My main mission for OC is to educate both the LEOs and the citizens I come in contact with. I'm an ambassador and will try to make every encounter as positive as possible. Its a fact that you catch far more flies with honey than vinegar. A smile and a hand shake goes a long way in setting the tone of any contact.

Also I WANT to work with LEOs and try to form an informal partnership with them and a little cooperation up front opens the doors for a deeper understanding from both sides of the issue. So I won't slam the door on a potential ally. After a few encounters your name will be known and when an LEO you've built a relationship with hears it on the radio they might break in and vouch for you and open even more inroads.
 

Schlepnier

Regular Member
Joined
May 12, 2011
Messages
421
Location
Yelm, Washington USA
5jeffro7
You gave in to a consensual search, thats your choice, however Maine Expat is incorrect, how it should have went is "i see your carrying and i know it is legal, have a nice day" the LEO was fishing and you took the bait, when he demanded name and birthdate your response should have been-"im sorry why am i being detained?"

If he said your not being detained you should have then told him you were terminating the consensual encounter as terry V ohio requires that he have some crime to investigate in order to demand ID. if he is truely training a rookie he was teaching him the wrong lesson and you helped him re-enforce it.
 

PistolPackingMomma

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 1, 2011
Messages
1,898
Location
SC
5jeffro7
You gave in to a consensual search, thats your choice, however Maine Expat is incorrect, how it should have went is "i see your carrying and i know it is legal, have a nice day" the LEO was fishing and you took the bait, when he demanded name and birthdate your response should have been-"im sorry why am i being detained?"

If he said your not being detained you should have then told him you were terminating the consensual encounter as terry V ohio requires that he have some crime to investigate in order to demand ID. if he is truely training a rookie he was teaching him the wrong lesson and you helped him re-enforce it.
+10

If you can't remember the legal requirements of cooperation, then ask the cop; "Am I obligated by law to provide you with that information?" Ask them for the code/statue, whatever. Look it up when you get home, and if the cop lied, bring it up with his superiors. Cops can lie during a criminal investigation, but should not be able to during a "consensual" encounter. (INAL)
 

gogodawgs

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Oct 25, 2009
Messages
5,675
Location
Federal Way, Washington, USA
Just because we aren't REQUIRED to show ID doesn't mean we SHOULDN'T.
Wrong. Look at your signature line, "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." When are you going to contest? Well according to what you just wrote you are only going to comply.

You're a law abiding citizen with nothing to hide and there's no reason to go all Perry Mason on LEOs if they're just coming over to say hi. That rookie will remember this encounter and will likely make any future approaches with a lighter hand because of it.
Ah, the 'nothing to hide' line that the police get you to buy in.... I have nothing to hide but I do not run down the street naked. I have nothing to hide but I do not let the IRS reconcile my bank account. I have nothing to hide but I do not let my neighbors search through my underwear/lingerie drawer. Because I have nothing to hide does not hold water with those who believe we are free from government interference. Politely asking "am I being detained?" and "am I free to go?" is not going all Perry Mason... they are rights afforded to me by God and I will assert them politely with respect. Now it is upon the LEO to show me that same respect and answer the question and let me go on my way. The rookie? (who choose this profession) will remember that he can use his badge to infringe upon those rights afforded us by our Creator. What I want the rookie to remember is that he can not approach a law abiding citizen and bully them, detain them, and that the citizen is to be secure in their person and effects.

I've said it before. My main mission for OC is to educate both the LEOs and the citizens I come in contact with. I'm an ambassador and will try to make every encounter as positive as possible. Its a fact that you catch far more flies with honey than vinegar. A smile and a hand shake goes a long way in setting the tone of any contact.
This is my mission and has been for the last 3 years. And it can be done by politely and professionally asserting your rights. Your entire premise in the Washington forum is ignorant of the climate and culture of OC in the state of Washington. Many in this state several years ago ended up in handcuffs and illegally detained. It is because of their efforts that OC is accepted now among LE. Many letters and training bulletins have gone out to agencies around the state, lawsuits against the City of Seattle have been fought and won. (Thanks Alan Gottleib and Dave Workman at the SAF).

Also I WANT to work with LEOs and try to form an informal partnership with them and a little cooperation up front opens the doors for a deeper understanding from both sides of the issue. So I won't slam the door on a potential ally. After a few encounters your name will be known and when an LEO you've built a relationship with hears it on the radio they might break in and vouch for you and open even more inroads.
If you want to work with them then they must work on our terms, the terms of the Constitution and what is right and not upon the terms of abuse of rights endowed by our Creator. They are not an ally until they follow the Constitution. Our name in Washington is known because a few suffered through false detainment, because a few wrote letters and training bulletins are now part of the official record (not an 'informal partnership'). There are thousands of LEO in Washington and to think that an officer will remember you as an individual is naive and flat out wrong.

Maine Expat, I hope you spend some time reading the forum. Read the Virginia and Washington forums, read the Main forum, read Wisconsin and Michigan. You then may begin to understand the work and how it was achieved of the OCers that have made incredible strides across America.
 

skidmark

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 15, 2007
Messages
10,449
Location
Valhalla
It sounds like you had a consensual encounter up until the time the cop asked you for ID. Then it turned into a Terry stop. Terry stops are only allowed when there there is RAS that a crime has been committed, is being commited, or is about to be committed. Since the cop already stated that he knew that OC was legal and you provide no other information for him to develop RAS of a crime, you just got gamed into giving up your ID.

Do not take that as criticism. It is hard for someone who knows the laws and how cops operate to stand up to them and suggerst - ever so politely - that they go pound sand. BTDT and went through the "contempt of cop" trial for my troubles. It's a personal decision regarding how much you are willing to allow them to get away with.

My gripe, even though I do not live where you do, is that now there is a cop who knows he can, some of the time with some of the people, get away with doing something he is allowed by law to do. When he gets away with it and (as we know will eventually happen) some cop where I live learns about it, the cop local to me will begin to think he too can get away with it. And so on, and so on, and so on.

As I said, it takes a certain determination and courage to be willing to risk the possibility of contempt of cop" and the personal and financial expense involved in fighting that. But those who are not willing to stand up and tell the cop that they must follow the law need to know what they are doing to the rest of us. I'm hoping that you really were not intending to do that to me and everyone else. I'm hoping that this has opened your eyes or otherwise made you better understand why some of us get upset over what might seem like a "little thing" and that if there is a next time you will defend not only your rights but ours as well.

stay safe.
 

TheJeepster

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 23, 2009
Messages
95
Location
, ,
Deputy walks out on the dock & starts making small talk with some of the people fishing, then, after about a minute, turns to me & states, "I see that you're carrying: I know that it's completely legal & you're within your rights, but so I know who I"m dealing with, can I please see some ID?
May I see your papers please? <thick german accent>

ANSWER TO COP: Why is it you think you feel you have the right to talk to me let alone "deal" with me? This consensual conversation is over. Have a nice day and brush up on 4th amendment rights before trying to train your rookie on how to improperly uphold the law.

jackass... <under breath after cop has left)
 

sudden valley gunner

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
16,690
Location
Whatcom County
It sounds like you had a consensual encounter up until the time the cop asked you for ID. Then it turned into a Terry stop. Terry stops are only allowed when there there is RAS that a crime has been committed, is being commited, or is about to be committed. Since the cop already stated that he knew that OC was legal and you provide no other information for him to develop RAS of a crime, you just got gamed into giving up your ID.

Do not take that as criticism. It is hard for someone who knows the laws and how cops operate to stand up to them and suggerst - ever so politely - that they go pound sand. BTDT and went through the "contempt of cop" trial for my troubles. It's a personal decision regarding how much you are willing to allow them to get away with.

My gripe, even though I do not live where you do, is that now there is a cop who knows he can, some of the time with some of the people, get away with doing something he is allowed by law to do. When he gets away with it and (as we know will eventually happen) some cop where I live learns about it, the cop local to me will begin to think he too can get away with it. And so on, and so on, and so on.

As I said, it takes a certain determination and courage to be willing to risk the possibility of contempt of cop" and the personal and financial expense involved in fighting that. But those who are not willing to stand up and tell the cop that they must follow the law need to know what they are doing to the rest of us. I'm hoping that you really were not intending to do that to me and everyone else. I'm hoping that this has opened your eyes or otherwise made you better understand why some of us get upset over what might seem like a "little thing" and that if there is a next time you will defend not only your rights but ours as well.

stay safe.
Well said skid I like to call it enabling. It makes other cops think they can get away with it.

May I see your papers please? <thick german accent>

ANSWER TO COP: Why is it you think you feel you have the right to talk to me let alone "deal" with me? This consensual conversation is over. Have a nice day and brush up on 4th amendment rights before trying to train your rookie on how to improperly uphold the law.

jackass... <under breath after cop has left)
Better yet our stronger State constitution Article 1 section 7, there have been cases the feds have upheld but our state has struck down.

SECTION 7 INVASION OF PRIVATE AFFAIRS OR HOME PROHIBITED. No person shall be disturbed in his private affairs, or his home invaded, without authority of law.

SECTION 3 PERSONAL RIGHTS. No person shall be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law.

Put these two together and you have a strong defense against any unwarranted intrusion into your life. And just being a cop does not make what you want authorized under "authority of law".
 

hermannr

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2011
Messages
2,332
Location
Okanogan Highland
Where does the DOB come in? you look like you may be under 21 or something? If fishing, under 18? My name is Herman...that is all they need, if you wish to give them anything at all.

In over 40 years of OC I have never had a problem, but I have thought about it. Maybe a start might be: May I see your state issued police Identification please...I don't know you, how do I know you are a police officer? No, the badge won't do. Then, after the ID is displayed...is there any particular reason Officer XXXX that you wish to have a conversation with me? After he says he knows that OC is legal, but he wants to check, I think I would repeat the fact that he knows OC is legal, so he has no reasonable reason to have any conversation with me at all...dismissed...you may go this conversation is over.
 

sudden valley gunner

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
16,690
Location
Whatcom County
Ah, the 'nothing to hide' line that the police get you to buy in.... I have nothing to hide but I do not run down the street naked. I have nothing to hide but I do not let the IRS reconcile my bank account. I have nothing to hide but I do not let my neighbors search through my underwear/lingerie drawer. Because I have nothing to hide does not hold water with those who believe we are free from government interference. Politely asking "am I being detained?" and "am I free to go?" is not going all Perry Mason... they are rights afforded to me by God and I will assert them politely with respect. Now it is upon the LEO to show me that same respect and answer the question and let me go on my way. The rookie? (who choose this profession) will remember that he can use his badge to infringe upon those rights afforded us by our Creator. What I want the rookie to remember is that he can not approach a law abiding citizen and bully them, detain them, and that the citizen is to be secure in their person and effects.

Although these are good points and worthy of discussion and protection, I remind myself and caution others that it isn't about having anything to hide. And letting ourselves fall into that red herring or fallacious argument with cops or others who support cops actions with the "what do you have to hide" argument lowers us to their level and puts the argument on a level it shouldn't be.
 

gogodawgs

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Oct 25, 2009
Messages
5,675
Location
Federal Way, Washington, USA
Although these are good points and worthy of discussion and protection, I remind myself and caution others that it isn't about having anything to hide. And letting ourselves fall into that red herring or fallacious argument with cops or others who support cops actions with the "what do you have to hide" argument lowers us to their level and puts the argument on a level it shouldn't be.
Rob, re read my quote. My argument here is only for us as the 'nothing to hide' line by LE is bogus.

I only advocate am I being detained and am I free to go.
 

Metalhead47

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 20, 2009
Messages
2,812
Location
South Whidbey, Washington, USA
To make a long story short:

Having been OC for quite some time, and not having had an encounter for probably close to 2 years, it happened tonight!

Because of the heat, I tend to go to Martha Lake Park (164th in Lynnwood) to cool off after work, and have always OC'd. Tonight, I see the deputy walking around the park like he's looking for something/someone specific...damned if I was going to approach him & ask if he was looking for a MWAG :)

I returned to the main fishing dock & got my iphone set up to record the video, the only problem is the guy I gave it to knew nothing about much & managed to not even get the audio...but at least I remembered that part :)

Deputy walks out on the dock & starts making small talk with some of the people fishing, then, after about a minute, turns to me & states, "I see that you're carrying: I know that it's completely legal & you're within your rights, but so I know who I"m dealing with, can I please see some ID?

I explained that I had none on me (I'd left it locked in my vehicle, on purpose, as usual). He then asked for my name & date of birth. at this time, I couldn't remember if I had to ID myself or not, and quite frankly, didn't want to start pushing buttons that I wasn't 100% sure of, so relented telling him my name & date of birth.

The deputy also explained that he had a rookie with him & that he wanted to make sure the rookie understood the legality of open carry so there weren't problems in the future. After drooling over my gun (figuratively, of course), he shook my hand, thanked me & was on his way.

I'll probably take some heat for actually giving up my information, but I figure if he's going to approach me in the way he did, casually & without alarm, there's no need to start pushing buttons...all in all, a positive experience
The usual suspects are giving you enough grief over the consensual search :p, so I'll just throw my two cents in on your iPhone.

Check the app store for "CopRecorder." It's free, can be pulled up very quickly, streams audio to a remote site so it can't be "lost," and even has a "stealth" mode. You can also set your camera app to video and leave it there (use a different app for actual photos so you don't get it mixed up), then you pull it up very quick by double clicking the home button & swiping up. Keep the lens covered and you can probably record quite a bit of audio alone without using up alot of space.
 

sudden valley gunner

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
16,690
Location
Whatcom County
Rob, re read my quote. My argument here is only for us as the 'nothing to hide' line by LE is bogus.

I only advocate am I being detained and am I free to go.
I know, re read what I wrote. I was emphasizing and adding to your post not to buy into that argument. I don't even bother countering the "What you got to hide" argument by cops or cop apologists.
 

gogodawgs

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Oct 25, 2009
Messages
5,675
Location
Federal Way, Washington, USA
I know, re read what I wrote. I was emphasizing and adding to your post not to buy into that argument. I don't even bother countering the "What you got to hide" argument by cops or cop apologists.
Got it, I just have not read much on taking apart the 'nothing to hide' argument so I have been working on a mini essay to hopefully open the eyes of some. I have had many gun owners, regular people who will recite this because they have heard it since they were young. They are just brainwashed over the years, so providing some commentary to get them to think about it from a different point of view has been enlightening for them.
 
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