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Check out this crack pot...

pro2A

Regular Member
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May 3, 2008
Messages
76
Location
Greencastle, Pennsylvania, United States
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I don't even know if I should give this guy the courtesy of linking to his website, but he is just... there are no words.

http://www.examiner.com/x-6572-NY-O...s-the-2nd-amendment-and-constitutional-idiocy

Just a couple excerpts from his article... I could spend hours de-bunking this guy.

Of course the problem with that line of thinking is that there is no 2nd amendment right to own a gun, and that is not in dispute among anyone who knows the constitution which admittedly leaves out at least 3/4 of the members of Congress and probably half the states attorneys general in the country .

But what the hearings may finally do is put to bed this incredible ignorance over the 2nd amendment, ignorance which quite frankly does gun owners no good at all. Except to constantly put them on the defensive because every time they try to invoke the 2nd amendment to achieve something they want, they lose. And always will. Because the 2nd amendment has absolutely nothing to do with an individual right to own a gun and never did. And so it is actually in the interest of pro-gun organizations and gun owners to drop these constant references to the 2nd amendment since it will get them nowhere and instead use other tactical means in support of their positions.

To try to rely on a 2nd amendment right that doesn't exist only makes their position more difficult because they will lose that argument every time and continue to be on the defensive. What gun owners need to do is exercise their first amendment rights and apply whatever political pressures they choose, whether its through contributions to legislators who support their position or to finance campaigns against legislators who oppose their position, and that will get them further than this losing battle that the 2nd amendment gives them rights and that it applies to individuals.

"the Second Amendment doesn't guarantee the right to have firearms at all. " Burger said that the purpose of the Second Amendment was "to ensure that the 'state armies'--'the militia'--would be maintained for the defense of the state. "

This is of course obvious. Even the most tortured liberal approach to the constitution cant get around the facts relating to the 2nd amendment. The 2nd amendment isn't a smorgasbord where you get to pick and choose what words you think support your position and pretend the other words don't exist.

Have at em' boys....
 

Washintonian_For_Liberty

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922
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Mercer Island, Washington, USA
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pro2A wrote:
Except to constantly put them on the defensive because every time they try to invoke the 2nd amendment to achieve something they want, they lose. And always will. Because the 2nd amendment has absolutely nothing to do with an individual right to own a gun and never did.

"I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."~ George Mason, Co-author of the Second Amendment, during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788

"A militia, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves..." ~ Richard Henry Lee, writing in Letters from the Federal Farmer to the Republic, Letter XVIII, May, 1788.


"The people are not to be disarmed of their weapons. They are left in full posession of them." ~ Zachariah Johnson, Elliot's Debates, vol. 3 "The Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution."


"And that the said Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the Press, or the rights of Conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms;..." ~ Samuel Adams quoted in the Philadelphia Independent Gazetteer, August 20, 1789, "Propositions submitted to the Convention of this State"

"Firearms stand next in importance to the constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence ... from the hour the Pilgrims landed to the present day, events, occurences and tendencies prove that to ensure peace security and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable … the very atmosphere of firearms anywhere restrains evil interference — they deserve a place of honor with all that's good." ~ George Washington, First President of the United States

"The supposed quietude of a good man allures the ruffian; while on the other hand arms, like laws, discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as property. The same balance would be preserved were all the world destitute of arms, for all would be alike; but since some will not, others dare not lay them aside … Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them." ~ Thomas Paine


"To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them." ~ Richard Henry Lee
American Statesman, 1788


"The great object is that every man be armed." and "Everyone who is able may have a gun." ~ Patrick Henry, American Patriot

"Are we at last brought to such humiliating and debasing degradation, that we cannot be trusted with arms for our defense? Where is the difference between having our arms in possession and under our direction and having them under the management of Congress? If our defense be the real object of having those arms, in whose hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal safety to us, as in our own hands?" ~ Patrick Henry, American Patriot

"Those who hammer their guns into plowshares will plow for those who do not." ~ Thomas Jefferson, Writer of the Declaration of Independence and third President of the United States

"The constitutions of most of our States assert that all power is inherent in the people; that ... it is their right and duty to be at all times armed; ..." ~ Thomas Jefferson, letter to Justice John Cartwright, June 5, 1824. ME 16:45.


"The best we can help for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed." ~ Alexander Hamilton, The Federalist Papers at 184-8

"Arms in the hands of the citizens may be used at individual discretion for the defense of the country, the overthrow of tyranny or private self-defense." ~ John Adams

"Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of. Notwithstanding the military establishments in the several kingdoms of Europe, which are carried as far as the public resources will bear, the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms. And it is not certain that with this aid alone they would not be able to shake off their yokes. But were the people to possess the additional advantages of local governments chosen by themselves, that could collect the national will and direct the national force, and of officers appointed out of the militia, by these governments and attached both to them and to the militia, it may be affirmed with the greatest assurance that the throne of every tyranny in Europe would be speedily overturned in spite of the legions which surround it." ~ James Madison, "The Influence of the State and Federal Governments Compared," 46 Federalist New York Packet, January 29, 1788
______________________________________________________________________________________

I will let the words of the Founding Fathers refute the moronic claims of this person. On a side note... he's lucky that breathing is an autonomic function, because otherwise, he'd very likely forget to breathe.
 

Citizen

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Location
Fairfax Co., VA
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Washintonian_For_Liberty wrote:
"I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."~ George Mason, Co-author of the Second Amendment, during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788

"A militia, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves..." ~ Richard Henry Lee, writing in Letters from the Federal Farmer to the Republic, Letter XVIII, May, 1788.


"The people are not to be disarmed of their weapons. They are left in full posession of them." ~ Zachariah Johnson, Elliot's Debates, vol. 3 "The Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution."


"And that the said Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the Press, or the rights of Conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms;..." ~ Samuel Adams quoted in the Philadelphia Independent Gazetteer, August 20, 1789, "Propositions submitted to the Convention of this State"

"Firearms stand next in importance to the constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence ... from the hour the Pilgrims landed to the present day, events, occurences and tendencies prove that to ensure peace security and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable … the very atmosphere of firearms anywhere restrains evil interference — they deserve a place of honor with all that's good." ~ George Washington, First President of the United States

"The supposed quietude of a good man allures the ruffian; while on the other hand arms, like laws, discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as property. The same balance would be preserved were all the world destitute of arms, for all would be alike; but since some will not, others dare not lay them aside … Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them." ~ Thomas Paine


"To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them." ~ Richard Henry Lee
American Statesman, 1788


"The great object is that every man be armed." and "Everyone who is able may have a gun." ~ Patrick Henry, American Patriot

"Are we at last brought to such humiliating and debasing degradation, that we cannot be trusted with arms for our defense? Where is the difference between having our arms in possession and under our direction and having them under the management of Congress? If our defense be the real object of having those arms, in whose hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal safety to us, as in our own hands?" ~ Patrick Henry, American Patriot

"Those who hammer their guns into plowshares will plow for those who do not." ~ Thomas Jefferson, Writer of the Declaration of Independence and third President of the United States

"The constitutions of most of our States assert that all power is inherent in the people; that ... it is their right and duty to be at all times armed; ..." ~ Thomas Jefferson, letter to Justice John Cartwright, June 5, 1824. ME 16:45.


"The best we can help for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed." ~ Alexander Hamilton, The Federalist Papers at 184-8

"Arms in the hands of the citizens may be used at individual discretion for the defense of the country, the overthrow of tyranny or private self-defense." ~ John Adams

"Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of. Notwithstanding the military establishments in the several kingdoms of Europe, which are carried as far as the public resources will bear, the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms. And it is not certain that with this aid alone they would not be able to shake off their yokes. But were the people to possess the additional advantages of local governments chosen by themselves, that could collect the national will and direct the national force, and of officers appointed out of the militia, by these governments and attached both to them and to the militia, it may be affirmed with the greatest assurance that the throne of every tyranny in Europe would be speedily overturned in spite of the legions which surround it." ~ James Madison, "The Influence of the State and Federal Governments Compared," 46 Federalist New York Packet, January 29, 1788
______________________________________________________________________________________

I will let the words of the Founding Fathers refute the moronic claims of this person. On a side note... he's lucky that breathing is an autonomic function, because otherwise, he'd very likely forget to breathe.

Great post!
 

WheelGun

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 9, 2008
Messages
276
Location
Delaware County, New York, USA
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The term'collective right' shares terminology with 'collective farm.'

By the way, the ACLUs position of the 2A is as a collective right, specifically stating that they do not agree with SCOTUS's Heller.

How does an ACLU lawyer count to 10? 1,3,4,5,6....
 

DKSuddeth

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
May 8, 2006
Messages
833
Location
Bedford, Texas, USA
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Washintonian_For_Liberty wrote:

I will let the words of the Founding Fathers refute the moronic claims of this person. On a side note... he's lucky that breathing is an autonomic function, because otherwise, he'd very likely forget to breathe.
all you did was post the rambling words of a bunch of old, slave owning, white guys who lived in a different time when they didn't have a professional army or police force. This is a different time and it needs a different set of laws. /sarcasm
 

WheelGun

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Messages
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Delaware County, New York, USA
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...whose words give an inner-city female of dark complexion the ability to make it home safely from an entry-level nursing job at 3:00 am because she has a Smith and Wesson model 60 in the front right pocket of her scrubs.
 

WheelGun

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Delaware County, New York, USA
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[suP]The National Guard is not the Militia. If it were, my uniform would not say US ARMY, and my ID would not say ARMED FORCES OF THE UNITED STATES. My unit would problably be named one of the following: 14th Brooklyn; Serrell's Engineers; Engineer's and Artisans; New York Volunteer Corps of Engineers; Corcoran's Brigade; Irish Legion; Brickel's German Artillery. [/suP]

[suP]Those were militia units (Civil War). Comprised of citizen soldiers that could be called to respond with their own constitutionally protected weapons. Shame we don't have militia units aroundthese days. (Real militia, not the nutty types)[/suP]

[suP]I like the uniforms and riflesfrom the times of themilitias much more than those of modern times. A 58 caliber Springfield rifle-musket can go on my wall anytime, the AR-15 stays in the safe. Ever seen the uniforms of the Dragoons? They were cool. Today you would have to become a re-enactor to use those types of weapons, wear those types of uniforms.[/suP]
 

Washintonian_For_Liberty

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Mercer Island, Washington, USA
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WheelGun wrote:
[suP]The National Guard is not the Militia. If it were, my uniform would not say US ARMY, and my ID would not say ARMED FORCES OF THE UNITED STATES. My unit would problably be named one of the following: 14th Brooklyn; Serrell's Engineers; Engineer's and Artisans; New York Volunteer Corps of Engineers; Corcoran's Brigade; Irish Legion; Brickel's German Artillery. [/suP]

[suP]Those were militia units (Civil War). Comprised of citizen soldiers that could be called to respond with their own constitutionally protected weapons. Shame we don't have militia units aroundthese days. (Real militia, not the nutty types)[/suP]

[suP]I like the uniforms and riflesfrom the times of themilitias much more than those of modern times. A 58 caliber Springfield rifle-musket can go on my wall anytime, the AR-15 stays in the safe. Ever seen the uniforms of the Dragoons? They were cool. Today you would have to become a re-enactor to use those types of weapons, wear those types of uniforms.[/suP]
Hear hear.... that is a very good point. We do need the average citizen to become more aware of their constitutional rights. Well, OCDO is one way for us to discuss the RTKBA and how it is the keystone right which protects all other rights.
 

sv_libertarian

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Oh jeez. The mulisha shit again. Please note that "the nutty types" were specifically written off. That means, as wheelgunner mentions the citizen soldiers of the past, who were organized under the civil laws of their local state or county.
 

WheelGun

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The state governor would give a commission tothe son of awealthy family from high society. Uniforms and weapons were often privately purchased.

"Shoes, sir. The boy went to get his self some shoes. He wants to fight, same as the rest of us. More, even."
 

smoking357

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sv_libertarian wrote:
Oh jeez. The mulisha @#$% again. Please note that "the nutty types" were specifically written off. That means, as wheelgunner mentions the citizen soldiers of the past, who were organized under the civil laws of their local state or county.
It wasn't enough for you to insult Thomas Jefferson in the other thread. Now you're insulting the militia? Is there anything our Founders said of which you approve?

Why do you anti-gunners and anti-Libertarians come here? You're fairly easy to drive from the field, but I can't imagine you'd find much congress with the posters here.

This is a pro-gun, pro-Liberty place. Do you even own a gun? Do you OC, every day?
 

sv_libertarian

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Insulted Jefferson? That's a new one on me. And I have no problem with the militia, so long as it's not a bunch of wannabes hiding in their bunker quoting from the Turner Diaries. The usually forgotten or ignored fact, is that the militia of old was specifically charted by the state or local government. They were responsible to civil authority. The modern militias are not. Organizing along military lines, claiming to be a military unit, without being answerable to civil authorities is not what the founders had in mind. One is a militia that serves to protect the state and spreads military power among the people. The other is rabble.

Yes Smoking, you caught me. I own no guns. I've never open carried a day in my life. I hate freedom. I'm a high ranking official in the Obama administration. I eat kittens for breakfast.

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=15946&forum_id=55

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum55/5189.html

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum55/5210.html

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum55/6599.html

I haven't bothered with a few about local transit authorities, they were largely uneventful.
 

compmanio365

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Pierce County, Washington, USA
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But it's clear from all your rants on this board that, to you, all militias are of this type and all should be denounced and made fun of equally. Really quite childish, especially coming from you, SV. I think you need to step back and look over your posts and realize that you've gone from a respected poster with intelligent points to add to a discussion, to being in the league of AWD and HankT with your crazed rants and mud flinging.

To someone who hasn't met you and know you outside this forum, it makes you look like a crazed man throwing things at his computer screen cause the whole Internet doesn't agree with your point of view. I, of course, know this is incorrect. Others don't have that POV, and all they will see is the posts you have made in recent weeks that give you a less than stellar reputation on this forum.

Just step back, maybe take a break from the forum and come back with a clearer head. It pains me to see a respected poster from WA tarnish his own image on the forum this way.
 

sv_libertarian

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Comp, the difference between militias is plain. One is historically correct, and one is the plaything of nutters. Guess which is most likely to be damaging to a cause? The historically correct one or the nutty one? Since there are very few of the former, and a good number of the latter, guess which one I'm firmly against? Guess which one has a strange mythos associated with it, that usually leads to the noble armed citizen blowing shit up?
 
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