• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

Carrying an unregistered pistol

Small_Arms_Collector

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2011
Messages
436
Location
Eastpointe Michigan
Had an interesting conversation/argument earlier and I’m still thinking about it and thought I would get others opinions.

So basically the conversation started over 80% and how to build one and still comply with Michigan’s ridiculous registration law (you just fill out the form as the buyer and the seller) and then turned in the direction of carrying said pistol (just keep the form on you for 30 days), but then escalated on the idea of how to register something that has no serial number, I suggested making one up and engraving it, but is that strictly required under the law? What about old hand guns made before 1968 that never had them? How do you register something unserialized?

From there the question became if you did manage such a thing how could it be proven that that pistol was registered at all? And if it can’t be why bother?

I’m fairly certain though that registering without a serial number is impossible so it’s a moot point, however it did raise an interesting question that I’m not (after thinking about it) 100% sure of the answer. I know a few years ago not registering was changed to a relatively low fine civil infraction but how would that relate to actually carrying it? Would it just be (as I initially suspected but am now second guessing myself about) a case of pay the fine and go on? Or would there be a different charge that I am unaware of for CARRYING an unregistered pistol vs just possessing it? And would that effect one’s ability to have a CPL? And what of the pistol? Could it be seized?

In other words if one were caught carrying (concealed or open) an unregistered pistol, or one that the registration could not be proved because of no serial number, what would happen? Just a fine? Or could the person be looking at additional charges and the loss of their pistol?
 

solus

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2013
Messages
9,315
Location
here nc
small arms collector...do you have,
1) per forum protocols, a statutory cite was missing in your Original Post so it into perspective regarding firearm registration.

2) 80% upper or lowers in pistol form?

3) 27 CFR 478.11 quote:
Handgun.
a. Any firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand; and
b. Any combination of parts from which a firearm described in paragraph (a) can be assembled.

Pistol.
A weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having (a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s); and (b) a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s).

Revolver.
A projectile weapon, of the pistol type, having a breechloading chambered cylinder so arranged that the cocking of the hammer or movement of the trigger rotates it and brings the next cartridge in line with the barrel for firing.

4) quote:
"...18 U.S.C. 921(a)(10) and 27 CFR 478.11 also requires that a person be “engaged in the business” before the manufacturer’s license requirement of section 923(a) applies.
Manufacturing
ATF’s long-standing position is that any activities that result in the making of firearms for sale or
distribution, to include installing parts in or on firearm frames and receivers, and processes that primarily
enhance a firearm’s durability, constitute firearms manufacturing that may require a manufacturer’s
license.

478.123 Records maintained by manufacturers.
a. Each licensed manufacturer shall record the type, model, caliber or gauge, and serial number of each complete firearm manufactured or otherwise acquired, and the date such manufacture or other acquisition was made. The information required by this paragraph shall be recorded not later than the seventh day following the date such manufacture or other acquisition was made.

Now as you can now see it is a federal mandate to have S/Ns...
 

KBCraig

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2007
Messages
4,884
Location
Granite State of Mind
small arms collector...do you have,
1) per forum protocols, a statutory cite was missing in your Original Post so it into perspective regarding firearm registration.
He posted in the Michigan forum and asked about Michigan law. Since when do forum protocols (I notice you didn't cite the rules) require a cite to ask a question?


478.123 Records maintained by manufacturers.
a. Each licensed manufacturer shall record the type, model, caliber or gauge, and serial number of each complete firearm manufactured or otherwise acquired, and the date such manufacture or other acquisition was made. The information required by this paragraph shall be recorded not later than the seventh day following the date such manufacture or other acquisition was made.

Now as you can now see it is a federal mandate to have S/Ns...
Only for licensed manufacturers, as your own cite states. No one is required to apply a SN to a firearm they build for their own use; if they're building while engaged in the business, they must have a manufacturer's FFL.

None of which has anything to do with how to register a self-built handgun to comply with Michigan law.
 

solus

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2013
Messages
9,315
Location
here nc
He posted in the Michigan forum and asked about Michigan law. Since when do forum protocols (I notice you didn't cite the rules) require a cite to ask a question?



Only for licensed manufacturers, as your own cite states. No one is required to apply a SN to a firearm they build for their own use; if they're building while engaged in the business, they must have a manufacturer's FFL.

None of which has anything to do with how to register a self-built handgun to comply with Michigan law.
One would believe KB, established members would be familiar w/forum protocol(s)...

(5) CITE TO AUTHORITY: If you state a rule of law, it is incumbent upon you to try to cite, as best you can, to authority. Citing to authority, using links when available,is what makes OCDO so successful. An authority is a published source of law that can back your claim up - statute, ordinance, court case, newspaper article covering a legal issue, etc.

Especially since the OP vaguely quotes: "...still comply with Michigan’s ridiculous registration law...." & "...but is that strictly required under the law?"

Pray tell KB how can one have any type of valid discussion about "a law" w/o a cited source to discuss.

now to your second point... since no specific MI statutory registration cite was proffered per se; and the OP switched into a self debate regarding s/n marking(s); nor any clarification on singular or wholesale "home builds" for 'friends'; i simply pointed out nuances of current federal mandates regarding serial numbers.

finally KB, i noticed with great interest your responce to the OP's thread seems to also lack absolutely anything whatsoever on 'registering a "GHOST" handgun in Michigan!' [which i suspect was OP's intent in the first place!]
 

KBCraig

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2007
Messages
4,884
Location
Granite State of Mind
finally KB, i noticed with great interest your responce to the OP's thread seems to also lack absolutely anything whatsoever on 'registering a "GHOST" handgun in Michigan!' [which i suspect was OP's intent in the first place!]
Nor did yours, Mr. Kettle.

Then again, I wasn't replying to the OP.
 

solus

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2013
Messages
9,315
Location
here nc
Nor did yours, Mr. Kettle.

Then again, I wasn't replying to the OP.
KB, so glad you've entered the realm of hurling juvenile playground taunts towards others when you believe, real or imaged, you've been slighte!

I just bet your fellow legislators are suitably impressed also...

ya'll have a good day...ya hear...
 

KBCraig

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2007
Messages
4,884
Location
Granite State of Mind
Speaking of fellow legislators...

On Organization Day, 2019, I met a fellow liberty-leaning Republican rep who also happened to be a fan of my favorite MLB team.

After pleasantries, he said something about some political issue or the other. I agreed with him. And then he launched into a tirade about how wrong I was, and how I was a F***** idiot.

I never knew he was really a resident of NC, instead of NH. But, it checks out.
 

solus

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2013
Messages
9,315
Location
here nc
Speaking of fellow legislators...

On Organization Day, 2019, I met a fellow liberty-leaning Republican rep who also happened to be a fan of my favorite MLB team.

After pleasantries, he said something about some political issue or the other. I agreed with him. And then he launched into a tirade about how wrong I was, and how I was a F***** idiot.

I never knew he was really a resident of NC, instead of NH. But, it checks out.
sorry KB do not see any proof i discussed your neuro developmental disability(ies) whatsoever

while not a particularly religious person...Proverbs 17:28 seems to fit this situation quite well...

(sidebar...perhaps your fellow legislature pegged you perfectly and you still believe the 'denial' is a river in Eygpt!!)

cheers mate
 

solus

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2013
Messages
9,315
Location
here nc
If we’re done swinging purses I’d still like more information, especially about out of state CPLs over riding it.
tis kinda tough to give you information when you change the premise, e.g., "...about out of state CPLs..."

as well as what specific MI statute mandates the who, how, wherefore regarding 'registering' which was obliquely mentioned in your first post and clarification was requested, but ignored...

[BTW...your elementary school snide provocation wasn't even very good...]
 

Small_Arms_Collector

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2011
Messages
436
Location
Eastpointe Michigan
tis kinda tough to give you information when you change the premise, e.g., "...about out of state CPLs..."

as well as what specific MI statute mandates the who, how, wherefore regarding 'registering' which was obliquely mentioned in your first post and clarification was requested, but ignored...

[BTW...your elementary school snide provocation wasn't even very good...]
Not sure where or how you intend for me to provide citations for a question. The whole point of asking a question is that I don’t have the citations. That’s how questions work.

The out of state CPL thing was a response to the only valid attempt to answer the question so far in this thread, the rest has been you confused over the concept of how questions work and purse swinging over some kind of an issue between you and KBCraig.
 

solus

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2013
Messages
9,315
Location
here nc
lets be brutally candid and blunt mate...your first posting to this thread stated 'register' the firearm...then got into a tizzy regarding 'registering' w/o S/Ns...therefore per forum rules...

1. specifically, where in MI statutory realm does it tell MI citizens they are mandated to register their firearms?

2. specifically, where in MI statutory realm does it tell MI citizens which of their firearms are mandated for registration?

2. specifically, where in MI statutory realm does it tell MI citizens who is responsible to facilitate said registration of their firearms?

4. specifically, where in MI statutory realm does it tell MI citizens what specific firearm information is mandated to the mythical registrar of registration of citizen's firearms?

[sorry...you've already used that snide elementary school taunt...]

PS: you brought this same subject up on this forum in 2016 and again failed to articulate any type of statutory reference to the pending legislative bill allegedly to overturn registration or the statutory providence mandating registration...
 

Small_Arms_Collector

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2011
Messages
436
Location
Eastpointe Michigan
lets be brutally candid and blunt mate...your first posting to this thread stated 'register' the firearm...then got into a tizzy regarding 'registering' w/o S/Ns...therefore per forum rules...

1. specifically, where in MI statutory realm does it tell MI citizens they are mandated to register their firearms?

2. specifically, where in MI statutory realm does it tell MI citizens which of their firearms are mandated for registration?

2. specifically, where in MI statutory realm does it tell MI citizens who is responsible to facilitate said registration of their firearms?

4. specifically, where in MI statutory realm does it tell MI citizens what specific firearm information is mandated to the mythical registrar of registration of citizen's firearms?

[sorry...you've already used that snide elementary school taunt...]

PS: you brought this same subject up on this forum in 2016 and again failed to articulate any type of statutory reference to the pending legislative bill allegedly to overturn registration or the statutory providence mandating registration...

It is clear that you have no intention of actually answering the question and instead would rather be obtuse for no reason.

But to satisfy your idiocy, Michigan’s pistol registration is covered under MCL 28.422, but then you already knew that, but instead of honestly attempting to be helpful you instead decided to play some silly game where you apparently wanted to pretend you didn’t know it existed. So yes, there is your citation, for asking a question, about a commonly known and idiotic section of law which you know, or should have known, full well already. Happy now?
 

solus

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2013
Messages
9,315
Location
here nc
It is clear that you have no intention of actually answering the question and instead would rather be obtuse for no reason.

But to satisfy your idiocy, Michigan’s pistol registration is covered under MCL 28.422, but then you already knew that, but instead of honestly attempting to be helpful you instead decided to play some silly game where you apparently wanted to pretend you didn’t know it existed. So yes, there is your citation, for asking a question, about a commonly known and idiotic section of law which you know, or should have known, full well already. Happy now?
so...pray tell me mate, honestly, where in your MCL 28.422 cite does the statutory mandate of 'register' manifests itself...?

specifically where are the four questions i previously queried you about - - are answered ?

further, there are references to 'license' - about 34 times - - so are you, under the silly misconception, 'license' equates to 'registered'?

so therefore, are you really talking about the MI Concealed Pistol Licensure process?
https://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,4643,7-123-1878_1591_3503_4654-10926--,00.html [no mention of 28.422?]
https://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,4643,7-123-1878_1591_3503_4654-10929--,00.html [no mention of 28.422?]

[and really small arms collector, you feel the necessity to engage in use of the degrading words, idiocy, silly, & honestly, etc., when the commonality since 2016 is a misinterpretation of your quest as well as an inability to distinctly articulate the appropriate query on your part?]
 

Small_Arms_Collector

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2011
Messages
436
Location
Eastpointe Michigan
so...pray tell me mate, honestly, where in your MCL 28.422 cite does the statutory mandate of 'register' manifests itself...?

specifically where are the four questions i previously queried you about - - are answered ?

further, there are references to 'license' - about 34 times - - so are you, under the silly misconception, 'license' equates to 'registered'?

so therefore, are you really talking about the MI Concealed Pistol Licensure process?
https://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,4643,7-123-1878_1591_3503_4654-10926--,00.html [no mention of 28.422?]
https://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,4643,7-123-1878_1591_3503_4654-10929--,00.html [no mention of 28.422?]

[and really small arms collector, you feel the necessity to engage in use of the degrading words, idiocy, silly, & honestly, etc., when the commonality since 2016 is a misinterpretation of your quest as well as an inability to distinctly articulate the appropriate query on your part?]

I suggest you research the word question in a dictionary.

So you are honestly contending that Michigan does NOT have a pistol registration? Is that what you are claiming? Because you are wrong, a reading of the plain text of that section of law I cited for you makes that clear. See section 6 if you can’t be bothered to find it yourself. What do you suppose “the pistol entry database” is if not a registry?

So please tell me how “the pistol entry database” is not a registry and how Michigan does not have a pistol registration system.

Or, if you are done with being silly, obtuse, and deliberately difficult for no reason and pretending like Michigan does not have a registry you could attempt to answer the question.
 

solus

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2013
Messages
9,315
Location
here nc
As in 2016 mate, you shall at the end of the upcoming days and due mainly from your insistence to engage in childish degrading insults, be unfulfilled!

your dogged obstinance to understand what has been presented is discouraging at best and your loss!
 

Small_Arms_Collector

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2011
Messages
436
Location
Eastpointe Michigan
As in 2016 mate, you shall at the end of the upcoming days and due mainly from your insistence to engage in childish degrading insults, be unfulfilled!

your dogged obstinance to understand what has been presented is discouraging at best and your loss!

And what has been presented? I ask for clarification on the one honest reply and all I get is you insisting I provide citations proving the registry even exists, despite it’s existence being common knowledge, to even ask the question.
 
Top