Attempted robbery of OCer in Washington state WalMart!

[utbagpiper]

I am not criticizing, I am pointing facts in light of the accusations by one member that only comes to insult OC. There is no reason for anybody to feel insulting unless they are in that group that is being criticized(criminals).

No one on this thread is talking about criminals or how they carry.

Your pointing out that criminals prefer CC in the current context can only be reasonable taken as an attack on CC itself (which you admit you don't even recognize as being constitutionally protected).

Knock it off. And in the meantime, man up enough to admit that your ego and pride and desire to prove a troll wrong were more important to you than the larger RKBA community.

Get YOUR knickers out of their knot over a few stupid comments by one guy isn't a fan of OC. Educate him on OC rather than attacking CC.

Charles

 

[g21sfpistol]

UB, I know what my intent was, YOU do not. It was not an attack, but your claim that it was IS. It was pointing to the fact that the supposed flaws of OC are not limited to OC by a longggggg shot. The only person who should feel it is an attack is someone who falls within that group.

you brought up a subject that has nothing to do with the OP. the topic is about a OCer who was attacked. so get back on topic before you lock another thread.

 

[utbagpiper]

That is not OC, that is using a firearm to commit a crime, and they CC with that firearm before they commit the crime, without fail. They conceal to hide their intentions, ya know that tactical advantage.

Lacking laws like lifetime bans on felons, gun free zones, various legal limits on OC in some jurisdictions, and other laws making mere possession of a gun a crime, we might expect that a fair number of criminals might choose to broadcast their possession far more often than they do currently.

All of which has nothing to do with this thread.

How criminals carry should never have been brought up in the first place. We might just as mention that criminals prefer guns over other weapons because of the advantage guns give them. And there we would stand with the late Sarah Brady and her ilk. That you've got a list of hundreds of permit holders who have committed crimes is kind of troubling. Is your desire to defend RKBA and OC? Or is to attack permit holders?

Permit holders are now a large and diverse enough group in this nation that stats are at play. I do not know if the same can be said for those who OC.

Furthermore, a permit holder has a permit for years at a time. If he commits any reportable or revocable offense, he is a permit holder whether the gun played any role or was even present or not. We revoke permits for DUI. Not sure what having a gun has to do with being too impaired to drive. But it would be reported as a "permit holder who committed a crime". OTOH, an OCer (or CCer in ConCarry States, there are 6 now you know) without a permit is only, obviously a gun owner when he has his gun with him. If he left his gun home before tying one on and trying to drive home, he is just another DUI. No connection to gun owners.

You are using the media's anti-gun tactics to smear permit holders and those who choose to CC. Why?

We can effectively defend OC without attacking CC in any way, shape, or form.

Stop. Just stop attacking CC. Stop looking for chances to point out how criminals like to CC. Just stop it.

Charles

 

[WalkingWolf]

Open carriers are a large and diverse group in Texas, absolutely no crime in that large state by OCers. I have not even heard of them being targets, or having their guns snatched.

OCT has proven the myths about OC are just that myths, on a large scale. OC takes a lot of poop, including on this forum by finger pointers. CC should be able to stand up to scrutiny, if it cannot, and you are not willing to handle it. It tells more about the faults than I could ever put out there.

 

[utbagpiper]

Stop lying! I have never posted hostility to CC, I have only posted real facts. If you find that hostility you have a problem. I did NOT attack CC, I pointed to some of the people who CC, if you are not one of them you have nothing to cry about.

Do you or do you not believe that CC is constitutionally protected by the same 2nd amendment upon which you look for OC protections?

(And I don't care what any court has said. I care what you believe the clear wording of the amendment says.)

Does having a coat cover my firearm materially diminish my ability to "bear" that firearm against my government?

Some of the people who OC are jack booted thug cops. Should we repeatedly bring that up in discussions about the prudence, or rightness, or benefits/costs of OCing?

Criminals carry guns. What does that have to do with you or I carrying a gun? Exactly the same thing as whether some criminals choose to CC or OC. Some criminals hide their guns. Some criminals proudly carry them....often along with a badge. At one time, almost all criminals carried cap and ball guns. What does that say about people who choose to carry cap and ball today?

See how that works?

Defend OC without attacking CC. The personal downsides to CCing have NOTHING to do with how criminals choose to carry.

The only reason to bring up criminals CCing in this kind of a discussion is to poison the well with emotion.

You should know better.

Charles

 

[ZackAttack071309]

http://bearingarms.com/felon-attack...gpfbp&utm_medium=fbpage&utm_campaign=gpupdate

It's not the first time someone was assaulted by someone trying to steal their gun

 

[Grapeshot]

Criminals CCing has nothing to do with this thread.

An on going debate about off topic posts does not belong here either.

Either ignore or go to PM, but be responsible in either event.

Hammer poised to those that should know better and to whom I have regularly shown respect.

 

[WalkingWolf]

Do you or do you not believe that CC is constitutionally protected by the same 2nd amendment upon which you look for OC protections?

(And I don't care what any court has said. I care what you believe the clear wording of the amendment says.)

Does having a coat cover my firearm materially diminish my ability to "bear" that firearm against my government?

Some of the people who OC are jack booted thug cops. Should we repeatedly bring that up in discussions about the prudence, or rightness, or benefits/costs of OCing?

Criminals carry guns. What does that have to do with you or I carrying a gun? Exactly the same thing as whether some criminals choose to CC or OC. Some criminals hide their guns. Some criminals proudly carry them....often along with a badge. At one time, almost all criminals carried cap and ball guns. What does that say about people who choose to carry cap and ball today?

See how that works?

Defend OC without attacking CC. The personal downsides to CCing have NOTHING to do with how criminals choose to carry.

The only reason to bring up criminals CCing in this kind of a discussion is to poison the well with emotion.

You should know better.

Charles

Do you read court decisions? Particularly in YOUR OWN DISTRICT? We have been over this and that is not hatred, that is the courts and my interpretation of the constitution. I also pointed out to YOU that CC is covered, IMO, in other parts of the BOR. But you are ignoring that to make a personal attack on myself. Shame on you!

 

[g21sfpistol]

Open carriers are a large and diverse group in Texas, absolutely no crime in that large state by OCers. I have not even heard of them being targets, or having their guns snatched.

OCT has proven the myths about OC are just that myths, on a large scale. OC takes a lot of poop, including on this forum by finger pointers. CC should be able to stand up to scrutiny, if it cannot, and you are not willing to handle it. It tells more about the faults than I could ever put out there.

any cite on that?

 

[utbagpiper]

Do you read court decisions? Particularly in YOUR OWN DISTRICT? We have been over this and that is not hatred, that is the courts and my interpretation of the constitution. I also pointed out to YOU that CC is covered, IMO, in other parts of the BOR. But you are ignoring that to make a personal attack on myself. Shame on you!

I didn't ask you to hide behind the nightrobes of lawyers on the bench. I asked you YOUR opinion of the 2nd amendment.

I very much enjoyed your recent explanation of how the 2nd amendment doesn't protect WMDs because they cannot be born against the government. How does that explanation not also cover a firearm that is carried out of sight?

I'm glad to hear you believe some other provision of the BoR does cover CC. I'd be thrilled to hear more details on that.

I really would rather agree wherever possible and work together and learn from each other than argue over small areas of disagreement.

Charles

 

[WalkingWolf]

Criminals CCing has nothing to do with this thread.

An on going debate about off topic posts does not belong here either.

Either ignore or go to PM, but be responsible in either event.

Hammer poised to those that should know better and to whom I have regularly shown respect.

My apologies, but G21 and the writer of the article made it a OC V CC attack. Both have perceived flaws and advantages. They also have stats which shed light on each form of carry. IMO one cannot point to a couple incidents in OC, and proclaim CC is the mode that is holy.

Again my apologies, I will abide by your wishes.

 

[g21sfpistol]

WW, this needs to get back on topic.

I believe the attacker went after the man because he had a gun. why else would he attack him? it wasn't a spontaneous attack either because the victim notice him before hand. so there was time to observe and think about his action.

 

[WalkingWolf]

WW, this needs to get back on topic.

I believe the attacker went after the man because he had a gun. why else would he attack him? it wasn't a spontaneous attack either because the victim notice him before hand. so there was time to observe and think about his action.

Why don't you ask him? Until then we and YOU have no idea why he attacked him, but as you tried to allude to wrongly, either on purpose or because you were ignorant to the facts. A attack was made on a CCer in Florida where his gun WAS TAKEN AWAY.

 

[utbagpiper]

It's not the first time someone was assaulted by someone trying to steal their gun

With something like 10 million persons now having permits to carry, plus those who live in the growing number of States that don't require a permit (either to OC or CC), I would expect we can find a couple of cases of almost everything involving people carrying guns.

Kind of like we can find almost everything involving gun owners since about a quarter to half of all adults in the nation might be considered "gun owners" as they live in homes with guns present.

We've got a few legislators here in Utah (others probably have similar sludge in their State) who like to crow about how "everyone is law abiding until they are not" as some kind of excuse for prior restraint.

I can find a few Eagle Scouts who commit serious crimes, and a few heretofore LACs who go off the rails for the first time at 65 years of age. There are a few docs who hand out pain pills carelessly. Yet is this any reason for those in legit need to suffer for lack of sufficient pain management?

Yes. In theory an OC'd gun can be more easily taken. (In theory almost anything is possible including both spontaneous appearance and evolution of life, as well as God.) But in practice? I'm aware of one bizarre outlier event, and now maybe, possibly this event. It is entirely possible the bad guy didn't even see the OC'd gun. Or maybe this is the 2nd documented case we've found. Out of how many persons OCing how many days?

Do you suggest we all stop wearing seat belts in hopes of being "thrown clear" in the next car crash?

Charles

 

[Grapeshot]

It's not the first time someone was assaulted by someone trying to steal their gun

Cite please.

There have been many attempts to find such over the years, but none have proven valid. How do I know? Because I research and follow any such claims that come through until they are definitively satisfied either way.

Be my guest, but please start another thread and just link it here so as to not highjack this one.

 

[g21sfpistol]

Why don't you ask him? Until then we and YOU have no idea why he attacked him, but as you tried to allude to wrongly, either on purpose or because you were ignorant to the facts. A attack was made on a CCer in Florida where his gun WAS TAKEN AWAY.

cite. again, even if true, many more people CC than OC,a nd how many incidences don't get reported? OCING or CCING

 

[WalkingWolf]

Man shopping for coffee creamer at Walmart attacked by vigilante

cite. again, even if true, many more people CC than OC,a nd how many incidences don't get reported? OCING or CCING

[video=youtube;eLibNADBWHs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLibNADBWHs[/video]

 

[g21sfpistol]

so he assaulted a guy who he knew had a gun. what do you say when a CCer admits hes CCing? "no your not, because you just admitted youre carrying." so his jacket blew open and he saw his gun is that the story?

 

[WalkingWolf]

so he assaulted a guy who he knew had a gun. what do you say when a CCer admits hes CCing? "no your not, because you just admitted youre carrying." so his jacket blew open and he saw his gun is that the story?

He was still CC, and he was attacked. There was also a man attacked with a stun gun a few years ago that was CCing, fortunately he was able to shoot the person playing the knockout game. A person who conceals looks just like a person without a firearm. Is that not the whole idea behind concealing?

The best gunfight is the one that never happens. Texas has had absolutely no incidents with OCers. NC has not had any that I know of. Same for most states, but especially open carry states. There is nothing to suggest he even saw the gun, let alone attacked him for it. And most times a criminal knows to look for the tell tale signs, and they said so in a prison survey in Florida.

The one thing that is pretty well known is that criminals case/stalk/check out their potential victim. Apparently the victim in this case did not pick up on those signals the man was about to hit him with a bat, not until it was in process. OTH those who practice OC as a way of life make it a point of watching who is watching them, this guy was not a OC activist, or regular, it was his only time.

You can try all you want to push your agenda for CC. But here is the problem, we do not have to do a damn thing you say, you are powerless. Individuals hold all the power, you can be an individual, or you can continue to push others to do what you cannot force them to do. They will just laugh in your face, as we usually do.

Marvell Weaver, Teen Playing 'Knockout' With Stun Gun, Shot Twice By Victim
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/11/22/marvell-weaver-knockout-shot_n_4323723.html

This was another conceal carry that was targeted as a victim because he looked like a victim. It worked out, but the best gunfight or crime is the one that has not happened. All over the country I have not heard of any thug playing a knockout game with a open carrier. Criminals look for victims, conceal carry if done where the gun cannot be seen, look just like a unarmed victim. That Jack is a fact.

 

[utbagpiper]

He was still CC, and he was attacked.

To be fair, in this incident, the carrier was attacked precisely because the nutcase knew he had a gun. So he wasn't strictly CCing, he did not look just like an unarmed victim.

Had he been attacked for any reason other than carrying a gun, the fact that he was (sloppily) CCing would be relevant. But given the particulars that he seems to have been attacked by an anti-gun nut precisely because he was carrying a gun, the story is different.

But it is the 1 in a million exception that proves the rule. It is like some in our community who are uncomfortable with any crime committed by gun owners or carriers. Will millions of citizens carrying and 100 million or more owning guns in this nation, perfection is an unachievable goal.

In Utah, for 20 years, and with 500,000 permits now valid (200,000 resident permits in a State with 2 million adults, 3 million total, residents), we've only had to revoke about 0.2% of permits annually. This is for all causes from shoplifting to DUI to violent crimes.

I do not know of any statistically significant group that claim a better rate of abiding the law than what I've seen in the stats from Utah permit holders. Near as I can tell, they have a lower rate of having permits revoked than we have cops getting their certification revoked. And cop certs are typically only revoked for fairly serious crimes. A lot of small stuff can get brushed under the rug or handled "internally" because "is it really worth costing a guy his job". But I can't quite confirm the numbers and I don't need to poke local LEOs in the eye, so in public I say that Utah permit holders have a rate that is about the same as cops. And teachers and doctors and probably priests and lawyers and other trusted groups.

Simply put, I'll take 0.2% revocation rate and wave it around with honor. And not to trumpet CC in particular, but to demonstrate that LACs who own and carry guns in public are trustworthy, don't cause the streets to run red with blood, etc. (In Utah, a permit to carry is still required to OC fully loaded.)

If one OCer (or careless CCer) in 1,000 (or 10,000) really is targeted because he has a gun visible that is the rare exception that proves the rule that bad guys rarely pick the obvious hard target, but prefer to go after easy targets. When it comes to nut cases, it is impossible to predict what will set them off: A visible gun, red hair, a ball cap from the "wrong" team, a polite request to slide past them on a crowded aisle. Since it is impossible to predict what will set off a nut job, all we can do is prepare to defend if required.

Charles