Anybody get their CHP in Chesapeake?

[mercutio545]

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So it's about that time. I completed my proof of competency training and I'm about ready to apply for my permit. I just had some questions about the way Chesapeake does their CHP's.

I went to the website ( http://www.chesapeake.va.us/services/depart/circourt/hand_gun_permits.shtml ) and I just wanted to be sure I would be doing the steps correctly. I get the 50 dollar fee and all, but I'm guessing they want you to fill out the permit there? Then after you fill out the permit, you take it to the police station and drop it off along with the pre-addressed envelope, and that's it?

Also, how would it be possible to not show them my ID? To my understanding, if the application is notarized you don't have to show ID, but since they make you fill it out there at the court, what is there to do?

 

[Thundar]

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mercutio545 wrote:

So it's about that time. I completed my proof of competency training and I'm about ready to apply for my permit. I just had some questions about the way Chesapeake does their CHP's.

I went to the website ( http://www.chesapeake.va.us/services/depart/circourt/hand_gun_permits.shtml ) and I just wanted to be sure I would be doing the steps correctly. I get the 50 dollar fee and all, but I'm guessing they want you to fill out the permit there? Then after you fill out the permit, you take it to the police station and drop it off along with the pre-addressed envelope, and that's it?

Also, how would it be possible to not show them my ID? To my understanding, if the application is notarized you don't have to show ID, but since they make you fill it out there at the court, what is there to do?

When I turnedmy applicationin a few yeas ago I filled in everything except for the signature section before I went to the Clerk of the Court's office. The receptionist in the office witnessed my signing and provided the notary free of charge.

 

[kaiheitai17]

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You can fill out the application before going down to the Clerk of the Court office. Just don't sign the application before. Your signature must be notarized. I would question them about the requirement to take the application to the police for action. The police do not issue the permit, the clerk does. I didn't see anything about a fingerprint requirement, so why do you need to take it to the police?

 

[bayboy42]

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Anybody notice the inaccuracy on the website?

 

[ODA 226]

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kaiheitai17 wrote:

You can fill out the application before going down to the Clerk of the Court office. Just don't sign the application before. Your signature must be notarized. I would question them about the requirement to take the application to the police for action. The police do not issue the permit, the clerk does. I didn't see anything about a fingerprint requirement, so why do you need to take it to the police?

There is a fingerprint requirement for first issuance. The Clerk of Circuit Court does not have the ability nor the mandate to take, read and process fingerprints. No need to rock the boat on this one.

 

[roscoe13]

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ODA 226 wrote:

kaiheitai17 wrote:

You can fill out the application before going down to the Clerk of the Court office. Just don't sign the application before. Your signature must be notarized. I would question them about the requirement to take the application to the police for action. The police do not issue the permit, the clerk does. I didn't see anything about a fingerprint requirement, so why do you need to take it to the police?

There is a fingerprint requirement for first issuance.

Cite?

 

[roscoe13]

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bayboy42 wrote:

Anybody notice the inaccuracy on the website?

I noticed at least two...

 

[bayboy42]

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roscoe13 wrote:

bayboy42 wrote:

Anybody notice the inaccuracy on the website?

I noticed at least two...

Allright....I give...I can only find 1........what are your 2??

 

[roscoe13]

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bayboy42 wrote:

roscoe13 wrote:

bayboy42 wrote:

Anybody notice the inaccuracy on the website?

I noticed at least two...

Allright....I give...I can only find 1........what are your 2??

Let's see...

1. You don't need a valid hunting license, just completion of a hunter education course.
2. The training course doesn't need to be an NRA safety course specifically, and
3. doesn't need to be done at a gun shop.
4. They left out participation in competitive shooting.
5. It still looks like they're pushing permits to purchase a firearm which can be obtained at the police department.
6. I bet if you show up between 8AM & 4PM on a Saturday or Sunday there won't be anyone there...

 

[kaiheitai17]

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ODA 226 wrote:

kaiheitai17 wrote:

You can fill out the application before going down to the Clerk of the Court office. Just don't sign the application before. Your signature must be notarized. I would question them about the requirement to take the application to the police for action. The police do not issue the permit, the clerk does. I didn't see anything about a fingerprint requirement, so why do you need to take it to the police?

There is a fingerprint requirement for first issuance. The Clerk of Circuit Court does not have the ability nor the mandate to take, read and process fingerprints. No need to rock the boat on this one.

If there is a fingerprint requirement, fine. Get your finger print card before you deliver the application package to the Clerk. As said though, I did not see anything on the posted web site that said finger prints were required. And to the best of my knowledge, the clock on the CHP issuance does not start until the completed application has been delivered to the Clerk of the Court. Giving the completed application to the police department seems to me to be a delaying tactic by Cheasapeake for the issuance of the CHP. I don't know what the average wait in Cheasapeake for a CHP is, if it is under the 45 daymax, then fine do it thier way.

 

[Mike]

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kaiheitai17 wrote:

You can fill out the application before going down to the Clerk of the Court office. Just don't sign the application before. Your signature must be notarized.

You can fill out the application and have it notarized before you get the Clerk's office to file it. If Chesapeake has a fingerprinting ordinance, then you must do it unless you have an "existing" CHP - I believe that to be any previously issued CHP, in your hand, even if expired. But your milage may vary if the previous CHP is expired, and you may have to sue to enforce that right and get the issue clarified.

 

[mercutio545]

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kaiheitai17 wrote:

ODA 226 wrote:

kaiheitai17 wrote:

You can fill out the application before going down to the Clerk of the Court office. Just don't sign the application before. Your signature must be notarized. I would question them about the requirement to take the application to the police for action. The police do not issue the permit, the clerk does. I didn't see anything about a fingerprint requirement, so why do you need to take it to the police?

There is a fingerprint requirement for first issuance. The Clerk of Circuit Court does not have the ability nor the mandate to take, read and process fingerprints. No need to rock the boat on this one.

If there is a fingerprint requirement, fine. Get your finger print card before you deliver the application package to the Clerk. As said though, I did not see anything on the posted web site that said finger prints were required. And to the best of my knowledge, the clock on the CHP issuance does not start until the completed application has been delivered to the Clerk of the Court. Giving the completed application to the police department seems to me to be a delaying tactic by Cheasapeake for the issuance of the CHP. I don't know what the average wait in Cheasapeake for a CHP is, if it is under the 45 daymax, then fine do it thier way.

I called the court earlier and asked about that. They said that there had to be fingerprints on file. So where do I go to get the fingerprint card if I want to just turn it in there at the court? The police station?

 

[Thundar]

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mercutio545 wrote:

I called the court earlier and asked about that. They said that there had to be fingerprints on file. So where do I go to get the fingerprint card if I want to just turn it in there at the court? The police station?

The City of Chesapeake requires fingerprinting, in accordance with the Code of Virginia for the first CHP. The fingerprints on file comment was a mistake, as fingerprints cannot be kept after the process is complete. The city police dutifully notified me that I could pick upmy fingerprint cards within 21 days. I did not want mine back, but asked for them back a month after I had been notified to ensure they were destroyed. The police records roomsaid sorry, but the cards had been destroyed. (I know that it really does not matter, as the FBI records the finger prints sent to themand does not delete them, but my finger prints were already in the system from my military service.)

It is interesting that though permitted by the Code of Virginia the Chesapeake City Code does not permit electronic collection and transmission of your fingerprints. If the city police have converted to electronic fingerprinting it would lack thestatutory authorityto collect fingerprinting cards. That would be a perfect time to insist to the City Council a repeal of the fingerprinting requirement.

Chesapeake City Code:

Source: http://www.municode.com/RESOURCES/gateway.asp?pid=10529&sid=46

Sec. 46-48. Fingerprinting requirements.

(a)Any person who applies to the clerk of the Chesapeake Circuit Court for a permit to carry a concealed handgun, under § 18.2-308 of the Code of Virginia (1950, as amended), shall, as part of the application process, submit to fingerprinting by the city police department and provide personal descriptive information as required by the chief of police. The applicant's fingerprint cards and personal descriptive information shall be forwarded by the police department through the Central Criminal Records Exchange to the Federal Bureau of Investigation for the purpose of obtaining criminal history record information regarding the applicant, and obtaining fingerprint identification information from federal records. Upon completion of the criminal records check, the fingerprint cards shall be returned to the city police department, and the police department shall then promptly notify the applicant that he or she has 21 days from the date of the notice to request return of the fingerprint cards. All fingerprint cards not claimed by the applicant within 21 days of notification shall be destroyed. Fingerprints taken for the purposes described in this subsection shall not be copied, held or used for any other purposes.



Code of Virginia:

Source: http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-308

D. Any person 21 years of age or older may apply in writing to the clerk of the circuit court of the county or city in which he resides, or if he is a member of the United States Armed Forces, the county or city in which he is domiciled, for a five-year permit to carry a concealed handgun. There shall be no requirement regarding the length of time an applicant has been a resident or domiciliary of the county or city. The application shall be made under oath before a notary or other person qualified to take oaths and shall be made only on a form prescribed by the Department of State Police, in consultation with the Supreme Court, requiring only that information necessary to determine eligibility for the permit. The clerk shall enter on the application the date on which the application and all other information required to be submitted by the applicant is received. The court shall consult with either the sheriff or police department of the county or city and receive a report from the Central Criminal Records Exchange. As a condition for issuance of a concealed handgun permit, the applicant shall submit to fingerprinting if required by local ordinance in the county or city where the applicant resides and provide personal descriptive information to be forwarded with the fingerprints through the Central Criminal Records Exchange to the Federal Bureau of Investigation for the purpose of obtaining criminal history record information regarding the applicant, and obtaining fingerprint identification information from federal records pursuant to criminal investigations by state and local law-enforcement agencies. However, no local ordinance shall require an applicant to submit to fingerprinting if the applicant has an existing concealed handgun permit issued pursuant to this section and is applying for a new five-year permit pursuant to subsection I. Where feasible and practical, the local law-enforcement agency may transfer information electronically to the State Police instead of inked fingerprint cards. Upon completion of the criminal history records check, the State Police shall return the fingerprint cards to the submitting local agency or, in the case of scanned fingerprints, destroy the electronic record. The local agency shall then promptly notify the person that he has 21 days from the date of the notice to request return of the fingerprint cards, if any. All fingerprint cards not claimed by the applicant within 21 days of notification by the local agency shall be destroyed. All optically scanned fingerprints shall be destroyed upon completion of the criminal history records check without requiring that the applicant be notified. Fingerprints taken for the purposes described in this section shall not be copied, held or used for any other purposes. The court shall issue the permit and notify the State Police of the issuance of the permit within 45 days of receipt of the completed application unless it is determined that the applicant is disqualified. Any order denying issuance of the permit shall state the basis for the denial of the permit and the applicant's right to and the requirements for perfecting an appeal of such order pursuant to subsection L. An application is deemed complete when all information required to be furnished by the applicant is delivered to and received by the clerk of court before or concomitant with the conduct of a state or national criminal history records check. If the court has not issued the permit or determined that the applicant is disqualified within 45 days of the date of receipt noted on the application, the clerk shall certify on the application that the 45-day period has expired, and send a copy of the certified application to the applicant. The certified application shall serve as a de facto permit, which shall expire 90 days after issuance, and shall be recognized as a valid concealed handgun permit when presented with a valid government-issued photo identification pursuant to subsection H, until the court issues a five-year permit or finds the applicant to be disqualified. If the applicant is found to be disqualified after the de facto permit is issued, the applicant shall surrender the de facto permit to the court and the disqualification shall be deemed a denial of the permit and a revocation of the de facto permit. If the applicant is later found by the court to be disqualified after a permit has been issued, the five-year permit shall be revoked. The clerk of court may withhold from public disclosure the social security number contained in a permit application in response to a request to inspect or copy any such permit application, except that such social security number shall not be withheld from any law-enforcement officer acting in the performance of his official duties.

 

[mercutio545]

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So I finally got around to going down to the court and applying. It was actually quite a breeze. Not as difficult as it looked on the website. I just brought in the completed application (except for the notarized part), signed it in front of the clerk, paid the fee, took it across the street to get the prints done (which are digital, by the way), and that was it.

 

[Thundar]

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Just what I was waiting for. It is illegal by Chesapeake city code to make a copy of fingerprints. Digital fingerprints require a digital copy be made. I will e-mail the city attorney and recommend that the optional fingerprint requirement be deleted from city code as the CPD is currently violating the city code by making a digital copy.

 

[JeffersonDavis]

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Thundar wrote:

Just what I was waiting for. It is illegal by Chesapeake city code to make a copy of fingerprints. Digital fingerprints require a digital copy be made. I will e-mail the city attorney and recommend that the optional fingerprint requirement be deleted from city code as the CPD is currently violating the city code by making a digital copy.

Please let us know how it goes.

 

[roscoe13]

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Thundar wrote:

Just what I was waiting for. It is illegal by Chesapeake city code to make a copy of fingerprints. Digital fingerprints require a digital copy be made. I will e-mail the city attorney and recommend that the optional fingerprint requirement be deleted from city code as the CPD is currently violating the city code by making a digital copy.

Assuming that the digital copy isn't retained any longer than necessary to get the image from the scanner to the fingerprint card, I'm sure the county could successfully argue that they're in compliance with the spirit of the law...

 

[mercutio545]

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Thundar wrote:

Just what I was waiting for. It is illegal by Chesapeake city code to make a copy of fingerprints. Digital fingerprints require a digital copy be made. I will e-mail the city attorney and recommend that the optional fingerprint requirement be deleted from city code as the CPD is currently violating the city code by making a digital copy.

Thundar, I asked the clerk who fingerprinted me how long they stayed on file for and he said that they could only hold them for something like three weeks. From seeing the machine, it looked like it was directly linked to a state police database. I'm not 100% sure that Chesapeake actually holds the copies. But then again, I'm not 100% unsure.

 

[Thundar]

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We will see soon about digital fingerprinting. Here is the FOIA request:

Dear Chief Wright,

First please allow me to congratulate you on your appointment as the Chief of Police.

This is a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) Request.

Request: Please provide all written correspondence, e-mail, written procedures, notes, instructions and policies pertaining to the fingerprinting, digital fingerprinting and transmission of data, including digital fingerprint data,for Concealed Handgun Permit (CHP) Applicationsin and from the City of Chesapeake, VA.

Background: An online gun rights advocacy forum, Open Carry Dot Org currently has information indicating that The Chesapeake City Police no longer use fingerprint cards for CHP applications,but have switched to the digital taking of fingerprints. Although this practice is permitted by State code, the copying of fingerprints, which is required to create a digital record and totransmit that digital copy to the State Police is prohibited by Chesapeake City Code.



Delivery of information: The preferred method of delivery of information is via e-mail to xxxxxx. If e-mail response is cumbersome or impractical please deliver the requested documents to:

xxxxxxxxx

xxxxxxxxx

xxxxxxxxx

Thank you in advance for your prompt response.

Sincerely,

xxxxxxxxxx