Another dog attack story

[flyin_ryan]

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Couple notes on this one. First off, glad you're ok, and my best to brave little Jack. This is a great example of what I have said from the get-go. A determined attacker is different from your average BG. This is an attacker that has one goal... kill you. They are a different "breed" no pun intended, than an average mugger. A determined attacker is alot harder to stop, even with mighty .357's and .44's. In alot of instances, humans have been able to take personal defense rounds, in lethal doses, and keep coming, at least achieving the goal of killing you before succumbing to wounds. In fight for flight, when the brain decides to fight, aggresive people, by nature, give themselves to the fight, they disregard pain, and other factors that would stop most people in their tracks. It really doesn't matter what caliber you carry in this instance, what is important is your ability to kill, quickly and efficiently. I am not trying to sound like a nut here, but I have personally seen a grown man take seven 9mm shots to the chest and he seemed to not even care. He died later, from overwhelming gunfire when we realized the 9mm wasn't doing the job, but he damn near blew about forty U.S. Soldiers sky high. This one instance is why I am so touchy on the kill subject. When you have to fire, you have to kill. I know that sounds rough, but it is a fact. If you are not ready to end the life of another in your defense, leave the gun at home. IT WILL GET YOU KILLED! That said, Mr. 357luvr proved his worth by empying that cannon into his target. It might have gone different had he just waited for the dog to die thinking he'd done enough damage. I am sorry for the more sensitive souls out there, but guns kill! And they should always kill when used in a defensive role!

 

[Citizen]

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flyin_ryan wrote:

Couple notes on this one.

You'll want to become familiar with civilian self-defense law. And tactics.

Shoot to stop. Shoot to stop. Shoot to stop. If the attacker dies as a result, its coincidental. The defender's goal is to stop the attack right now.

For example,ashot that breaks the attacker's pelvic bone will stop an attackutilizing a contact weapon--knife, bludgeon,etc.

When the attack stops, whether the attacker is alive, dying, or dead, the defender had better stop shooting. When the danger ceases so does thejustification for lethal force according to my understanding.

 

[357luvr]

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flyin_ryan wrote:

Couple notes on this one. First off, glad you're ok, and my best to brave little Jack. This is a great example of what I have said from the get-go. A determined attacker is different from your average BG. This is an attacker that has one goal... kill you. They are a different "breed" no pun intended, than an average mugger. A determined attacker is alot harder to stop, even with mighty .357's and .44's. In alot of instances, humans have been able to take personal defense rounds, in lethal doses, and keep coming, at least achieving the goal of killing you before succumbing to wounds. In fight for flight, when the brain decides to fight, aggresive people, by nature, give themselves to the fight, they disregard pain, and other factors that would stop most people in their tracks. It really doesn't matter what caliber you carry in this instance, what is important is your ability to kill, quickly and efficiently. I am not trying to sound like a nut here, but I have personally seen a grown man take seven 9mm shots to the chest and he seemed to not even care. He died later, from overwhelming gunfire when we realized the 9mm wasn't doing the job, but he damn near blew about forty U.S. Soldiers sky high. This one instance is why I am so touchy on the kill subject. When you have to fire, you have to kill. I know that sounds rough, but it is a fact. If you are not ready to end the life of another in your defense, leave the gun at home. IT WILL GET YOU KILLED! That said, Mr. 357luvr proved his worth by empying that cannon into his target. It might have gone different had he just waited for the dog to die thinking he'd done enough damage. I am sorry for the more sensitive souls out there, but guns kill! And they should always kill when used in a defensive role!

Well said! I agree with you 100%. I committed (sp?) myself to being willing to kill if needed the first day I picked up my first gun (H&K USPc .40) and strapped it onto my hip. That was when I was 5 years ago. Since then, I've had a couple instances where I was more comfortable knowing that I could defend myselfif needed. But up until this incident, I'd never had to even pull my weapon in self defense, much less pull the trigger.

As far as emptying my 'cannon' into the target, let me clarify a few things. First off, as soon as he attacked Jack, I knew he was a dead dog walking. I figured that if he would attack a harmless little beagle THAT viciously then he was a threat to even the meanest of dogs. Knowing that4 out of my6 neighbors have dogs and knowing that I was the 'closest gun', I knew my only choice was to take the threat out. Having said all that, I shouldn't have completely emptied the cylinder. After I shotthe first time, he was on his way out. He took another step and I prepared for another shot which scared him away. He started walking away from me and eventually came to the corner of my partially fenced in yard. I was there within seconds but I knew as soon as he laid down that he was dead. I know that's different from what I first said but I've basically blocked a lot of this outand am just now remembering things correctly.However my fight or flight senses were in full force and I was determined to win this fight. I at that time (approx. 5-10 seconds after his last movement) emptied the other 5 rounds into his limp body. One hit his leg,two hit about the same place as the first just on the opposite side, and two hit in the heart/lung area. To add to the insult to injury, the final round to the head is something that just upsets me to think about. I knew for sure that he was dead but I was determined 'to make a point.' What that point was or who I was trying to make it to is a mystery. I had hoped that I would perform 'better' if I was ever under this particular type of situation. The reason I say that is that if it had been an attacking human in the same situation, emptying the cylinder and/or reloading and putting another round into his head would have crossed the legal/illegal line long before the final round was fired.

 

[357luvr]

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Citizen wrote:

When the attack stops, whether the attacker is alive, dying, or dead, the defender had better stop shooting. When the danger ceases so does thejustification for lethal force according to my understanding.

Yeah that's basically what I was trying to say. You just said it better. Thanks for helping me clarify it to everyone.

 

[bayboy42]

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deepdiver wrote:

An unfortunate necessity. Good job protecting your own pack. That's your job.

I'm definitely glad that both the OP and the OP's dog are well but if I'm reading his original story correctly, it's a far cry from an "unfortunate necessity".

"Wednesday, Lobo started barking and come to find out a dog was on the other side of the fence. I thought it was my neighbors dog so I cautiously brought him inside."

Wouldn't have letting the dog remain on the other side of the fence potentially avoided the entire situation all together?

 

[flyin_ryan]

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Citizen wrote:

flyin_ryan wrote:

Couple notes on this one.

You'll want to become familiar with civilian self-defense law. And tactics.

Shoot to stop. Shoot to stop. Shoot to stop. If the attacker dies as a result, its coincidental. The defender's goal is to stop the attack right now.

For example,ashot that breaks the attacker's pelvic bone will stop an attackutilizing a contact weapon--knife, bludgeon,etc.

When the attack stops, whether the attacker is alive, dying, or dead, the defender had better stop shooting. When the danger ceases so does thejustification for lethal force according to my understanding.

Ok, to my understanding, shooting to stop, is like shooting to wound, at which time you can be liable either way. In imminent danger, you can and should stop the attacker, when he is unable to continue his aggressive actions, by all means, cease fire. I am NOT saying to walk up and unload on a prone man you just shot. My point is, determined attackers are difficult to stop, and killing them, using followup shots, as many as need be in center mass will keep you alive. I will never shoot to wound. I have fired a weapon in anger. I did not continue to fire when the target was no longer a threat. Please understand the difference in protecting yourself and overkill. If your attacker takes hits, and continues coming you have to be prepared to kill. Not wait for him to bleed out. This is the difference between a determined attacker and an attacker. In most cases an attacker will cease aggression when he figures out his victim is armed and activley shooting. A determined attacker doesn't care, they just want to see you dead, so to protect yourself be ready to make them dead first. Cold blooded murder, ie. walking up to a prone, wounded man and blowing his brains out is alot different than shooting center mass as many times as neccessary to stop him from killing you or loved ones. And I mean no offense, but that aim for the pelvic bone, knee-cap etc. is alot of bull. Aim for the biggest part of your target and don't stop shooting until they are down. I am not advocating killing every assailant, I am merely saying one must be ready to end the life of an aggressor, to be any less comitted is potential death for you and yours. You can fantasize about dropping a BG with a well placed shot, but in reality, it doesn't happen, follow up shots are what end a fight. If you can stop an attacker without killing him, then great, human life is never expendable, but in extreme cases ie. Determined attackers, being able to kill just might save your life.

 

[357luvr]

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bayboy42 wrote:

Wouldn't have letting the dog remain on the other side of the fence potentially avoided the entire situation all together?

I've played this scenario out a thousand times in my head and the simple answer is $%&@ NO!!!! If I hadn't brought him on the other side of the PARTIALLY fenced in yard, there is no doubt that he would have eventually found his way around the fence. What would have happened then, I hear dogs fighting, I run outside to find the attacking pitt at one of my dog's throat? I would have then had to run back inside, get the gun, run back outside, and by then a dog would've been dead and I have no doubt that it would have been one of my dogs.

In addition, one of my neighbors (the sue crazy ones) have TWO very large pitts and they are contained only by one of these invisible fences. IF it was my neighbors (and long time friend) dog, he would've eventually strolled into my neighbors yard. Three angry non pet friendly pitt bulls in one area, that's the beginning of a sad story right there!

 

[bayboy42]

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357luvr wrote:

bayboy42 wrote:

Wouldn't have letting the dog remain on the other side of the fence potentially avoided the entire situation all together?

I've played this scenario out a thousand times in my head and the simple answer is $%&@ NO!!!! If I hadn't brought him on the other side of the PARTIALLY fenced in yard, there is no doubt that he would have eventually found his way around the fence. What would have happened then, I hear dogs fighting, I run outside to find the attacking pitt at one of my dog's throat? I would have then had to run back inside, get the gun, run back outside, and by then a dog would've been dead and I have no doubt that it would have been one of my dogs.

In addition, one of my neighbors (the sue crazy ones) have TWO very large pitts and they are contained only by one of these invisible fences. IF it was my neighbors (and long time friend) dog, he would've eventually strolled into my neighbors yard. Three angry non pet friendly pitt bulls in one area, that's the beginning of a sad story right there!

My apologies....didn't see the word PARTIALLY in the original post. Entirely different ball game! Heal fast!

 

[357luvr]

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flyin_ryan wrote:

Ok, to my understanding, shooting to stop, is like shooting to wound, at which time you can be liable either way. In imminent danger, you can and should stop the attacker, when he is unable to continue his aggressive actions, by all means, cease fire. I am NOT saying to walk up and unload on a prone man you just shot. My point is, determined attackers are difficult to stop, and killing them, using followup shots, as many as need be in center mass will keep you alive. I will never shoot to wound. I have fired a weapon in anger. I did not continue to fire when the target was no longer a threat. Please understand the difference in protecting yourself and overkill. If your attacker takes hits, and continues coming you have to be prepared to kill. Not wait for him to bleed out. This is the difference between a determined attacker and an attacker. In most cases an attacker will cease aggression when he figures out his victim is armed and activley shooting. A determined attacker doesn't care, they just want to see you dead, so to protect yourself be ready to make them dead first. Cold blooded murder, ie. walking up to a prone, wounded man and blowing his brains out is alot different than shooting center mass as many times as neccessary to stop him from killing you or loved ones. And I mean no offense, but that aim for the pelvic bone, knee-cap etc. is alot of bull. Aim for the biggest part of your target and don't stop shooting until they are down. I am not advocating killing every assailant, I am merely saying one must be ready to end the life of an aggressor, to be any less comitted is potential death for you and yours. You can fantasize about dropping a BG with a well placed shot, but in reality, it doesn't happen, follow up shots are what end a fight. If you can stop an attacker without killing him, then great, human life is never expendable, but in extreme cases ie. Determined attackers, being able to kill just might save your life.

Again, I agree 100%. You shoot until the BG is no longer a threat. If that means laying into him with every round you have in the gun and/or until they are dead then so be it. On the other hand, shooting someone that is no longer a threat is straight up murder. I know that it's difficult but you've really got to be prepared for this kind of stuff so that you can keep your wits about you if the SHTF.Shooting to wound is just down right stupid and doing so will get you killed.

 

[flyin_ryan]

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357luvr wrote:

Again, I agree 100%. You shoot until the BG is no longer a threat. If that means laying into him with every round you have in the gun and/or until they are dead then so be it. On the other hand, shooting someone that is no longer a threat is straight up murder. I know that it's difficult but you've really got to be prepared for this kind of stuff so that you can keep your wits about you if the SHTF.Shooting to wound is just down right stupid and doing so will get you killed.

Glad to hear it! You are absolutley right. No one likes to kill, but carrying without the right mentality makes you at least a poser, and at worse... DEAD. I am proud of our right to carry, to keep and bear, but the reason we have this right is to protect ourselves using lethal weapons. keep up the good work sir, and lets hope you don't have another story to post anytime soon, you've done enough in my book, rest well.

 

[flyin_ryan]

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Citizen wrote:

You'll want to become familiar with civilian self-defense law. And tactics.

I know alot of what I say sounds very military, and yes I am military, but please understand that I can make the distinction between Baghdad and Seattle. I am not running around with an M-4 looking for Tangos to neutralize, I have believed in the right to carry long before I swore to uphold the constitution by donning a uniform. I carry for self defense, but I have learned a few things from my time overseas. Yes, military actions and shoot outs at home are totally different, but the mechanics are the same, shoot until they are no longer a threat, then report to higher, ie. authorities. To do any less could mean my death, and that is something I cannot live with. So all in all, take this story to heart, sometimes you have to kill to save your life, if you aren't ready for that, don't carry.

 

[357luvr]

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flyin_ryan wrote:

keep up the good work sir, and lets hope you don't have another story to post anytime soon, you've done enough in my book, rest well.

Thank you for your respect. I too hope that I don't have another story to tell for quite some time, if ever. I would consider myself lucky if I never have to draw or fire in self defense again. I will do it again if necessary but I in no way look forward to it. I have to admit that after I had come in and reported it to animal control, I completely lost it. I HAD JUST KILLED SOMETHING!!! That's all I could think of and I don't mind admitting that I cried like a little girl! It's what I had to do to get over it and to prepare myself for the encounter with animal control (I was thinking that they would treat it as a murder; i.e. CSI, confiscating my gun, ballistic tests, etc.) which actually turned out to be a blessing in disguise. Officer Patricia Dahl of the Orange county (Virginia) animal control is about the coolest, most understanding, and down right nicest person you will ever meet that carries a badge and a gun. She's even a fellow gun nut, HOW COOL IS THAT!!! By the time she left I had been comforted and reassured that it was indeed a "rightous shoot" and I shed no more tears. I have come to accept/believe that I was put here iffor no other reason than to protect my own. I see myself as a guardian first and everything else second. I will always protect those that I love. I'm sorry that a dog had to die for me to do that but I try to look at it from the angle that if this was a fighter dog (which I'm sure it was) he's literally better off dead. Fighting dogs lead such horrible lives that even the humane society agrees that fighter dogs should be killed in the most humane way possible. That's because they've been through enough to change them forever as well as making it impossible for them to be trusted. To every abused, forgotten, or abandoned animal; You will be remembered. And since we're on the subject; To any and all MIA's; You will NEVER be forgotten!!!

 

[Carnivore]

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357luvr, I have to comment on Jack, He's a handsome fella, and my Beagle Shiloh can rely on me covering his back as you did for your partner..

to add to your story, one of my nephews will carry the scars for life both mentally and physically from an attack from a well known family pet in his neighborhood, a Golden Retriever that nearly took out one of his eyes, and ripped his cheek from his face down to the lower jaw bone.. this was the nieghborhood pet, all the kids always played fetch with this family pet. I think what went wrong was when the boy owner of the dog threw a stick for the dog to retrieve, the dog dutifully brought the stick back to the owner boy and dropped the stick at the owners feet, well my nephew bent over to pick up the stick and before he could actually grasp the stick this Golden had him by the head and was thrashing him around furiously..needless to say he is totally freaked out by any Dog that's not leashed within eyeshot at even a 100 yds or so, he don't trust any K-9 now at 19 or 20 yrs old, and this happened back when he was 12 or so..

 

[Loneviking]

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However my fight or flight senses were in full force and I was determined to win this fight. I at that time (approx. 5-10 seconds after his last movement) emptied the other 5 rounds into his limp body. One hit his leg,two hit about the same place as the first just on the opposite side, and two hit in the heart/lung area. To add to the insult to injury, the final round to the head is something that just upsets me to think about.

Don't be too upset about that last round. I've done it too as it just pisses me off for an animal to attack me! What is interesting about your reaction is that you are using a revolver. You need to be careful and conserve ammo in a gunfightagainst anything. You fired once, the dog is headed away, stop and take a deep breath in while looking around. You did fine, stress makes rational thought go out the window--but if there's ever a next time, go slower with the shots. You may need them for another threat.

 

[RIAShooter]

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Wowa golden retriever? I guess that goes to show you that while we might have domesticated a lot of breeds anyone has the potential to go back to feral instincts

 

[Carnivore]

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Yep ! I've trained a few Labs, and from what I understand about Dogs,#1 is that theycan develop an unchallengable allegiance(spell chk) to the top dog in their life ie.owners and siblings of their home space.#2 is that no one likes to get bumped down in the pecking order/senioritylist, and thats about the most important thing in a dogs life, his/her status in their family pack. I think this is what happened with my nephew and his friends dog.. Another concern is that when a new child comes in to a family, the family pet has a big adjustment to make also.. which is why small children need to be closely watched as they learn to interact with Grandmas /uncles/cousins/friends pets.

 

[357luvr]

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As far as the Golden Retriever story, that is sad. They're one of the most beautiful breeds out there (in my opinion) and now this poor soul is going to be scared or at least cautious of them his entire life. That's just sad. Sorry to hear about everything but I'm glad he's recovering to say the least.

As far as being cautious with my ammo. I have since bought a couple speedloader and have them ready at all times. If this situation happened again, I would have used what's in the gun now first which is 44 special XTP rounds. Somthing that will at the very least make darn near anything think twice before coming back for some more. It may not kill the threat right away but if a dog is the attacker and I'm able to put all 6 rounds into it's center mass, it'll give me time to reload with the magnum Gold Dots. Snake "attacks" are much more common around this area so I have the other speedloader loaded with 3XTP specials and 3 shot shells. The reason I leave it loaded with 44 specials versus having magnums in it all the time is because I want my mom to be able to pick it up and pull the trigger with confidence. When it's on my hip, it's loaded with Magnum Gold Dots but when it's in the safe, it's loaded with 44Special XTP rounds. Out of this particular gun, it has nearly zero recoil and that's what mom requires to be able to pull the trigger with a loaded gun. She has really bad arthritis. Either way, it takes only seconds to reload the revolver (probably less if it was more than 'just practice') and I would've grabbed both if they were available to me at the time. The way I see it after 6 rounds of 44 Mag. Gold Dots, 9 rounds of 44 Spl. XTPs,and 3 shot shells (I admit, not the most deadly combibination but it's what works for my particular situation), if I'm still needing ammo then I'm heading inside, sitting/standing next to my gun safe and ammo box, and calling for backup. *IF* I'm still alive at that point.

Having said all that, in this particualar situation, I would've been MUCH more comfortable having a 10+1 or 12+1 .45ACP available to me. Or my old G20 10mm that holds 15+1 would've been very comforting. Either way, I'm looking for a large caliber, high capacity auto to have 'just in case.' I probably won't get one for a while but I'm thinking of getting something along the lines of either another G20 or preferably a high capacity .45 ACP. I'll let you all know what and when I decide.

 

[mrh2008]

Just wanted to point out that a pitbull with scars all over his body does not mean he is a fighter, my pitt is living proof. About 6 months ago the wife and I were looking for a family dog and wanted to save one from being put down. We went to our local animal shelter and found Max, an 80 pound 2 year old red nose pit. He still had blood and dirt packed into his open wounds and a large gash on his neck. His previous owners left him for dead because he would NOT fight. We got to know him a bit and decided to sign the paperwork to adopt him, they would not release him before he had surgey to repair his neck(which they payed for) and was neutered. After a week or so, we got him home and he has been one of our best dogs, and our 2 year old sons best frtiend. The only other dog that was as good as Max was our female red nose pit that we got from the same shelter, its not theese dogs fault that there are evil people in this world that force them to fight eachother.

 

[1245A Defender]

holy necro post revival batman!!!

my best dog was a afgan/cocker. she loved, and guarded the whole neiborhood!

 

[Bookman]

The apologists for those who keep aggressive dogs and refuse to keep them under control would suggest it is your fault this dog attacked you. In fact, paraphrasing one of them, "you can't get seriously hurt by a dog bite, so there is no reason to ever shoot an attacking dog".

I beg to differ with those apologists. I'm 51 now. I was attacked by a German Shepherd when I was 15. He nearly tore the right side of my face off. It was nothing but a huge flap of skin. You could touch my teeth through the side of my face. One of his teeth splintered my cheekbone and I almost lost my right eye He also narrowly missed my jugular. It took 256 stitches to repair the damage. THEN I had to go in again for scar reduction surgery. My face was hugely swollen for over a year while I healed.

You tell those apologists from me that any pooch that attacks me without my deliberately provoking it is going to die. Period.