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1911 Question

Metal_Monkey

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 23, 2008
Messages
282
Location
Everett/Lynwood, Washington, USA
I understand that some of the hammers are different on different 1911's. I am just curious why you some of you guys have them cocked and ready to rock. I am guessing because some of you have the huge guard so you can't **** it like that, but a little more insight would be nice. I ask because I am thinking of getting a Wilson, but I don't want the big beavertail. I like the standard SAA style hammer like the original. In order to get that style I really want....they are not as nice as a Wilson. I am looking into the new Rem R1 and the new Cimmaron 1911. Thoughts?
 

oneeyeross

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 28, 2010
Messages
500
Location
Winlock, , USA
The 1911 was designed to be carried cocked and locked.

It is unsafe to carry it with one in the chamber and hammer down.

Carrying it empty, needing to rack the slide to chamber a round, takes time. Some people don't like that idea.

So, those who carry a 1911/1911A1 cocked and locked are carrying it in the manner it was designed to be carried and keep it ready to go if it is needed.
 

Son_of_Perdition

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2010
Messages
166
Location
SW , Washington, USA
It's funny to me. I never looked at the tail of a 1911 as anything but sexy. It's like the fins on a 59 Chevy. Or the curve of a girls lower back. The tail gets more attractive the first time you panic grab your gun wrong and get your thumb in the way of the slide. It helps your hand find home so to speak. IMO
 

Bill Starks

State Researcher
Joined
Dec 27, 2007
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4,304
Location
Nortonville, KY, USA
Basic training June 1984 I racked the slide for the first time on a 1911 with my hand in the wrong place. It took out a hunk of skin that to this day i still have a nice scar as a reminder.
I carry a Sig GSR in 1911 with all the extras. It would be very difficult for me to go back to a basic GI model.
 

antispam540

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2008
Messages
546
Location
Poulsbo, Washington, USA
The type of hammer you use contributes to how fast the gun can fire. You probably don't care much about it if you're not doing matches, but I like the look of the lightweight match-grade hammers, so I use one.

With or without a beavertail, the safety is hard to accidentally disengage - and even if it is, there's still the grip safety and trigger to get past before the gun can fire.

You always want to hold a gun as high up on the grip as you can to reduce muzzle jerk when you fire. The recoil is going to push back on the gun, and that push is going to be on the barrel of the gun and the breech face. If your hands are high up on the grip, so they're almost in line with the barrel and breech face, all the push will be straight back up your arms so the muzzle doesn't rise as easily. If you're holding it too low, the gun will flip up more, making it harder to line up your next shot and increasing the likelihood of a failure to feed.

If you don't have a beavertail and you grip the gun as high as you can, guess what's in the way of those nice sharp slide rails when that slide comes back after firing. It's the skin between your thumb and index finger, and you'll lose a good bit of it if that slide gets hold.

That's why we have beavertails - when the hammer's back, it's protected by the beavertail against bumps and impacts (not that it really needs it, but it doesn't hurt), and your hand is protected from the slide while still being able to grip the gun in a firm, safe position.
 

oneeyeross

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 28, 2010
Messages
500
Location
Winlock, , USA
Funny thing, M1...I feel in love with the GI 1911A1 at Ft. Knox during Armor AIT back in '74. Never had an issue with a bite or anything...

Guess that's why there are so many different models, there are so many different hand sizes & styles...
 

Batousaii

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2009
Messages
1,226
Location
Kitsap Co., Washington, USA
Hammer down - note:

If your carrying a series-80 or equivelent, then hammer down is not an issue, but best to have it on the half notch, and even better if your half notch is actually notched (some are not) - regardless, later models have fifing pin blocks that lock the pin away from the primer even with the hammer down. The traditionalists will always say cocked and locked, and will mention hammer down being dangerous. This is 100% correct and true if it is an older model, pre-80 series, and some brands that do not have a firing pin block. Find out and be sure if your does (or not) before carry with a hammer down. I specifically chose the Colt for this feature, and i carry hammer down on half notch. You will however have to pull the hammer back before firing since it is a single action. for me it's not an issue because i usually carry a Vaquero, so the habbit is there to thumb a hammer back.

- Know your gun, and the mechanics there of.

Bat
 

onlurker

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 15, 2009
Messages
251
Location
Everett, Washington, USA
If your carrying a series-80 or equivelent, then hammer down is not an issue, but best to have it on the half notch, and even better if your half notch is actually notched (some are not) - regardless, later models have fifing pin blocks that lock the pin away from the primer even with the hammer down. The traditionalists will always say cocked and locked, and will mention hammer down being dangerous. This is 100% correct and true if it is an older model, pre-80 series, and some brands that do not have a firing pin block. Find out and be sure if your does (or not) before carry with a hammer down. I specifically chose the Colt for this feature, and i carry hammer down on half notch. You will however have to pull the hammer back before firing since it is a single action. for me it's not an issue because i usually carry a Vaquero, so the habbit is there to thumb a hammer back.

- Know your gun, and the mechanics there of.

Bat

How do you drop the hammer without having to pull the trigger and manually thumb down the hammer? THAT makes me more nervous than having to carry in condition 1.
 

daddy4count

Regular Member
Joined
May 11, 2010
Messages
513
Location
Seattle, Washington, USA
How do you drop the hammer without having to pull the trigger and manually thumb down the hammer?

You don't... decocking a 1911 is a manual operation. Hold hammer, depress trigger, SLOWLY lower hammer. Make sure the business end is pointing somewhere safe, just in case!

Though I'm not sure why you would ever want to decock a 1911? I suppose if you wanted to carry it chambered with the hammer down? But at that point you might as well carry it unchambered, IMO. If ya gotta **** it anyway, might as well rack one in while you're at it...
 

Batousaii

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2009
Messages
1,226
Location
Kitsap Co., Washington, USA
Condition-2

Having been around guns since 12, as a boy scout, used to do shooting, spent countless thousands of rounds in civilian life, and almost as many while in military ... i do know a thing or two regarding firearms and the mechanics. Also relevant is my knowledge of auto mechanics, how moving metal objects interact, experience fatigue, strain and break, as well as care, prevention, customization, modifications, do's and don’ts and how to safely operate a dangerous piece of machinery. I have built from scratch several of the firearms I own, so I am very familiar with internal components of a firearm, same with my highly modified car.
- Decoking any weapon is an exercise in caution, and building the proper skill and technique. Just like pulling the hammer back on a revolver, then deciding you don’t want or need to take the shot – you will at times have to lower the hammer on a live round. Most do not consider this as we live in a more modern age of automatics, and most are much more familiar with those, and one can unload most of those without dropping a hammer.
- - For the 1911…. NavyLT’s book is correct, as the original half chicken notch is actually a “shelf” and the trigger can still be pulled, slipping the sear off the shelf thus dropping the hammer against the firing pin. That’s why I mentioned to make sure it is an actual “notch” that will effectively lock the sear and prevent the trigger from being pulled and actuating the sear. Some come with the notch , or a modification to the hammer can be made so that the tip of sear fits in a “V” at it’s point. Either way, it still acts same as it’s original intent too, and will catch the hammer.
- - Thumbing the hammer down on any weapon is not to be taken lightly or in a casual tone. As I have been around revolvers a lot, enjoy them, shoot them and carry one on a regular basis, I am familiar with and have built an effective lowering procedure that ensure a safe operation. You should always point in a safe direction, pull then relax the trigger so the sear can catch if it slips, or in many Ruger style transfer bar revolvers, lowers the transfer bar preventing hammer to pin contact. I also wedge my thumb deeply between the hammer face and the pin, where my thumb would get a big pinch before it would reach the firing pin. In all of this, a methodical, intentional and positive control is paramount. People that rush through, or simply plop the hammer down give the rest of us a bad deal. Firearms are simply little mechanical contraptions, knowing the clockworks and their actual physical interactions, and working within the machines capabilities gives us an advantage over the usual guy that understand Brand-X is a good one, and design-X has the best reputation. ---- Have you guys dissected your pistol to see what makes it tick?
- So – I have no problems with anyone carrying a firearm cocked and locked. I simply personally prefer Hammer down, and can SA thumb it back rather quickly. I have at certain uncomfortable times, reached down, thumbed my hammer back and engaged the safety, so I am not adverse to this Condition-1 in the least. My weapon is rarely unloaded so I do not drop the hammer often. It gets periodic cleaning and rounds rotation then returned to service. It lives most of it’s life in it’s holster and gets locked up when not in service (where one of the other pistols comes out to replace it). The only accidental discharge I have ever experienced was with a rented single barrel break open shotgun that was extremely worn internally. It fired immediately after being closed, was promptly returned to the counter and removed from circulation. Being pointed in a safe direction, it simply scared the hell out of us all, thank god and good handling.
- To end, i can thumb a hammer quicker and easier than rack a slide, it's a simple one handed operation, less noisy, less obvious, and i still have my +1 round in the chamber.

Be safe, and know what / why you’re doing what you do, and you should be just fine.

Kindly,

Bat
 

Metal_Monkey

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 23, 2008
Messages
282
Location
Everett/Lynwood, Washington, USA
Can you guys give any examples or different models that don't have to be cocked, but can with no beavertail? Having it to protect my hand is not needed for me. I know autos, the feel, hand placement....just not as wise on the 1911's seeing how there are a million different ones. I want one that I can just **** and fire. Maybe a 1911 just isn't for me. I just like "steel" guns and with all these newer "plastic" guns I am running out of options.
 

David.Car

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 1, 2008
Messages
1,264
Location
Spokane, Washington, USA
Can you guys give any examples or different models that don't have to be cocked, but can with no beavertail? Having it to protect my hand is not needed for me. I know autos, the feel, hand placement....just not as wise on the 1911's seeing how there are a million different ones. I want one that I can just **** and fire. Maybe a 1911 just isn't for me. I just like "steel" guns and with all these newer "plastic" guns I am running out of options.

Sounds like you would be better off with a Sig DA/SA like the P226.

You carry it hammer down, but it has no mechanical safety for you to disengage. (Has a firing pin block that is removed while pulling the trigger)

Simply draw your firearm, first trigger pull will be DA then every follow up round will be SA.

Use the decocker to uncock the firearm after loading (racking the slide) or firing.

Edit: Here is how mine looks. Sig P226 - 9mm with Hogue grips. I use Mec-Gar 18rnd flush fit mags for 18+1.

SigSauerP226_2.jpg
http://www.horsefish.net/airsoft/images/SigSauerP226_2.jpg
 
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UtahRSO

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2007
Messages
146
Location
Lehi, Utah, USA
My first 1911 was an Argentine copy of the Colt 1911 (not even the 1911A1). Of course, the grip safety had no big beavertail, and the hammer was the long spur variety. That hammer had a tendency to catch the web of my hand far too often, and it sure played hobb with flinching and accuracy! I really feel sorry for WWI soldiers who got scars from the original 1911.

Knowing what I know now, I could have changed the grip safety and hammer so I wouldn't get bit. But I didn't have money to mess with the gun, and I didn't even know a beavertail was available (maybe it wasn't--this was 40 years ago). Now my Springfield 1911 has a commander hammer and nice beavertail, and I don't get bit. I wouldn't go back to the old one on a dare.
 

Batousaii

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2009
Messages
1,226
Location
Kitsap Co., Washington, USA
No worries MM!

Don’t let a debate on mechanics deter you from a great firearm. Simply put, the 1911 is an single action design, time tested, trusted and proven by many. Many of the younger crowd (or simply new to firearms) will encounter Double Action Automatics, as those are becoming more common than Single Action Automatics, same with revolvers. So there are many out there that have a misconception regarding Automatics, that often revolves around DA/SA differences. Many instinctively believe that pulling the trigger should raise and ten drop the hammer. This however is only true of double actions. In a single action, the hammer is either cocked back via action of the slide, or by a thumb (auto/revolver). Compare an old cowboy's revolver to Dirty Harry's .44 magnum. The cowboy has to thumb the hammer each time prior to pulling the trigger. Harry just pulls the trigger, and that raises then drops tha hammer in a faster action. With Automatics, this function is more elusive, because the slide always cocks the hammer, giving an initial impression that the single action and double action autos are the same. This is only partially true, and he in lies the debate. A double action auto is designed (most) to be carried with the hammer down. Pulling the trigger will give the first shot a long springy pull that raises and then releases the hammer much like a revolver. Upon firing, the slide recoils back, ejecting the shell, and cocks the hammer back, all shots after will be short easy pulls that auto's are known for. The 1911, being single action is different. If you were to carry it hammer down, then you would need to thumb the hammer back cowboy style prior to firing the first shot. Of course all shots after will have the hammer automatically cocked by action of the slide. Because the DA and SA function the same after the first shot, there is often confusion for new shooters on what exactly the difference is, or how to properly manage either when compared to the other.
- 1911 is a Single Action, and thus is designed to be loaded, chambered, and set on safety. This creates the "cocked and Locked" Condition-1 that we been debating. Condition-2, in other words, lowering the hammer manually, is not inherit in the design, and should be considered as an after thought that the design is simply capable of. Condition-2 in a 1911 can be dangerous in older models (pre series 80) that do not have a firing pin block. The half cocked position is a hold over from the old revolver days, that was re-utilized as a safety catch in the event the hammers full cocked notch were to fatigue and fail, thus dropping the hammer. Without the half cocked notch (and now a pin block helps too) the 1911 would have unleashed a burst of full auto fire if the full notch broke and gave way at some random point. Some modern 1911's have the half cocked notched deeper and can act as an actual locking point, much like the old revolvers. Most do not, and can be pulled off the half notch by pulling the trigger, and click, drops the hammer. I advise a notched hammer if you intend to use condition-2 (hammer down). Condition-2 in a 1911 is not the orthodox method, many are afraid of it, don’t understand it, and will preach against it with zeal. There is however a legitimate, and real need to understand, know how and why, when and where, you would lower the hammer of any weapon while a live round is under the firing pin. The 1911 is no exception.
- My final advice, "Hammer down" Condition-2 for a 1911 is something that needs to be carefully understood, both mechanically as well as tactically (even socially) and is really not a position a novice should consider. A novice carrier should consider Condition-3 (loaded magazine and empty chamber) and practice "Israeli" draw and rack technique, or Chamber a round to Condition-1 cocked and locked when he gets a little better at weapons handling and awareness. Remember, all firearms are potentially dangerous, can break and fail, can be used wrong..... or can save your life, and the lives of the ones you love. Simply put - it is a machine made with metal actuators, springs and levers that’s propels a projectile via combustion, much like your car.
- I hope this helps to give some food for thought. Do not be afraid to get a good 1911 and learn it for what it is.... a beautiful design that has survived from WW-I to today. It's reputation spans the world, and has more than earned a name for itself amongst the most famous of handguns ever built to date.

Be safe, and enjoy,

Bat
 

Mainsail

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
1,533
Location
Silverdale, Washington, USA
Carrying it empty, needing to rack the slide to chamber a round, takes time. Some people don't like that idea.
Everyone always makes this point, and it's a good one, but it's not really the limiting factor. If you carry any defensive firearm without a round in the chamber, then you are presupposing that you will only ever need a defensive firearm when both of your hands are free. That means you cannot shop (gotta carry the bag) or talk/text on your cell phone, you can't hold hands with your family, etc. I hope nobody is squirming in their chairs to make the stupid point about racking the slide on their shoe, that's not reliable.

Yes, it takes more time, but more importantly it takes two hands. I seldom have both hands free.
 

David.Car

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 1, 2008
Messages
1,264
Location
Spokane, Washington, USA
Everyone always makes this point, and it's a good one, but it's not really the limiting factor. If you carry any defensive firearm without a round in the chamber, then you are presupposing that you will only ever need a defensive firearm when both of your hands are free. That means you cannot shop (gotta carry the bag) or talk/text on your cell phone, you can't hold hands with your family, etc. I hope nobody is squirming in their chairs to make the stupid point about racking the slide on their shoe, that's not reliable.

Yes, it takes more time, but more importantly it takes two hands. I seldom have both hands free.

And is also one of the reasons that since I have begun carrying, I now do more things with my left hand... Might be a little bit more paranoid, but my gun hand is free.
 

G20-IWB24/7

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 26, 2007
Messages
886
Location
Tacoma, WA, ,
If you carry any defensive firearm without a round in the chamber, then you are presupposing that you will only ever need a defensive firearm when both of your hands are free. SNIP

Yes, it takes more time, but more importantly it takes two hands. I seldom have both hands free.

EXACTLY! With the chamber empty, it makes it a HANDSgun, not a handgun. Might as well have a rifle if you are going to be doing that....

I'll post pictures of my new OC piece soon... Springfield 5" Stainless Loaded w/US-made frame (not Brazil), "Series 70" Ambi safety, Ed Brown grip safety from the factory, carbon fiber-flush cut grips.... I could go on, but I'll just leave you with a teaser here before I can get some pics up.

Oh, and it's carried condition 1---fastest and safest way to carry a 1911. And yes, the hammer & beavertail combo is just like the curves on a woman's lower back...;)
 
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