Open carry at library?

The Big Guy · Oct 19, 2015

As Steve already asked, has any member of the NVFAC asked Don Turner where the organization stands on this issue? Will they be pursuing this issue with Clark County and Henderson Districts?

All it would take is an email.

TBG

solus · Oct 19, 2015

BB62, i used the word right...as a verb ~ uncovers/exposes!!

sure you aren't a yahoo from KY instead of being a buckeye yahoo cuz you don't understand English so well? :lol:

lighten up folks...'ya, i'm talking to youse!! (stated as i holster my gun!)'

hopefully you have now seen through this dialogue there might be different ways to peel the 2A onion and to ridicule anyone's perception of a way forward is why a state level or even a national 2A campaign will never get off the ground and be successful!!

unlike the GLBT equality national & local campaigns, which over the last 20 years has successful rallied their agenda against all the religious, Armed Forces, and political zealots in each of the states and the country but has taken their cause up to the USSCourt ~ and won. interestingly, they did not even have a founding amendment to use as a shield ~ they made one!

not only has the GLBT campaign rolled through this country their effort and activities have successfully been used in numerous countries around the world!!

so go sit over beers and ponder the way forward to mitigate w/o any perception of a plan or what results you are seeking so when you fall on your "we have always done it this way" parochial sword(s) you won't be disappointed!

sorry big guy, didn't intend to be 'mean' to ya'l , but dog-gone it you done got this yahoo's ire up a bit...

and the circle keeps going around...it is someone else's duty now to ask, check on, instigate, or otherwise roll the ball.

ipse

garand_guy · Oct 19, 2015

Here is the post on the blog

BB62 · Oct 19, 2015

garand_guy said:
Here is the post on the blog

Excellent article.

For clarification, you said:

"In 1995, NRS 202.3673 was enacted, prohibiting firearms in virtually any public building..."

Then said "It was then liberalized in 1999; that with very few exceptions, anyone with a concealed firearm permit could carry a concealed firearm in a government building..."

Then went on to say "In 2007, the current law was passed which makes the prohibition applicable to concealed firearms in any building that has signs or metal detectors at each public entrance..."

So, am I to understand that in regard to public building carry: >=1995 but <1999, no CCW, 1999 - 2006, CCW with a permit, >=2007, back to no CCW (for posted/metal detector equipped buildings)?

Sheesh!

Suggestion: there's no link to NRS 268.214 in your article - could you create one?

Also, I don't know if NV has a site that is kept current for NRS, like OH has for the ORC (like http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/), but the best I could find was http://www.leg.state.nv.us/Division/Legal/LawLibrary/NRS/index.cfm, which has no 268.214 listed. (268.214 is mentioned in the article thus: "Since the library district in question is a joint district, both the county and city (NRS 268.214) preemption laws would apply.")

Vegassteve · Oct 19, 2015

The Big Guy said:
As Steve already asked, has any member of the NVFAC asked Don Turner where the organization stands on this issue? Will they be pursuing this issue with Clark County and Henderson Districts?

All it would take is an email.

TBG

Not being a member Turner no longer takes email from me. I am going to get in touch with Merlin(Vernon) today and see if he can. Oddly this was one of the examples they said the new law would help with.

The Big Guy · Oct 19, 2015

Vegassteve said:
Not being a member Turner no longer takes email from me. I am going to get in touch with Merlin(Vernon) today and see if he can. Oddly this was one of the examples they said the new law would help with.

Yup, he doesn't want to hear from me either. He was more than happy to communicate with me when I was a member, was carrying the load, and he was taking the credit on behalf of the NVFAC. A simple letter from the NVFAC to the Library districts informing them of the law and letting them know that the state NRA affiliate will push the issue might be all it takes.

TBG

OC for ME · Oct 19, 2015

Whatever happened to getting kicked out, leaving, then filing suit/notice of possible suit being filed to fix the problem. The STL Zoo issue is a different animal because there is no bright line statute that is unambiguous in its (not it's

) language. This Lie-barry thing seems, without tracking down the text of the statute to be fairly obvious that OC is not against the law or a "trespassable" offense.

If the current NV law state that a political minion can't do this or that then notification after you get "harmed" usually clears things up. It should be a slam dunk if the minion(s) are going on "We is the government and we have the "right" to ignore state law as required without explanation to a member of the great unwashed masses."

My only concern is that I have the impression that LVPD cops are a wee bit trigger happy, or at a minimum, afraidy cats with a penchant for going to the gat pretty quick to resolve minor issues.

Will be interesting to follow to be sure.

Vegassteve · Oct 19, 2015

Vernon and Fiore have been contacted. I think Vernon is getting with NVFAC and also Vernon is getting a plan together so Garand we might want to combine or maybe you already have.

garand_guy · Oct 19, 2015

BB62 said:
So, am I to understand that in regard to public building carry: >=1995 but <1999, no CCW, 1999 - 2006, CCW with a permit, >=2007, back to no CCW (for posted/metal detector equipped buildings)?

Yep! You could legally carry before 1995 in a public building from what I gather. A very nerdy post will follow on the blog on that topic. You gotta remember, without gambling, this state is Wyoming without the cattle, trees, or Yellowstone.

BB62 said:
Suggestion: there's no link to NRS 268.214 in your article - could you create one?

Also, I don't know if NV has a site that is kept current for NRS, like OH has for the ORC (like http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/), but the best I could find was http://www.leg.state.nv.us/Division/Legal/LawLibrary/NRS/index.cfm, which has no 268.214 listed. (268.214 is mentioned in the article thus: "Since the library district in question is a joint district, both the county and city (NRS 268.214) preemption laws would apply.")

That's part of the problem. I guess the state doesn't update the website regularly, maybe only in January? Not sure. I have it posted on the website, so I'll make that the link.

garand_guy · Oct 20, 2015

Here is the strategy I posted on the Nevada Carry FB page:

Thank you all for your interest in getting the Las Vegas-Clark County Library District to comply with state preemption of firearm laws and stop preventing open carry in the library. Nevada Carry endorses the follow strategy and will utilize public pressure, the reporting of our blog, and existing Nevada organizations to pursue compliance.
First, we will be sending a letter to the district advising their actions are illegal and notifying them further violations will be illegal.

Second, we recommend that every resident of Clark County send a respectful email to the library district (administration@lvccld.org) asking them to abide by their own policy (which does not actually prohibit openly carried firearms) and also respect state law that prohibits them from making their own rules regarding firearms. A sample can be found below.

Third, we request that you attend the library board meeting at the Enterprise Library on 11/12/2015 at 6 PM.

Lastly, we encourage you to visit the library as normal. Reading and free exchange of ideas is one of the core foundations of America and as important to our liberty as the Second Amendment is. Support your library! However, if you do openly carry in the library, please be aware you may meet resistance from staff. Video or audio record the encounter. Be polite, be respectful. Ask for the exact rule or law that they are using to justify their ban. Ask for a copy of any written document you are shown. Once you have finished your business, leave and please contact us at nevadacarry@gmail.com.

At this time, we are not planning a large protest or open carry ‘read in’, nor do we want to try and set up a ‘test case’ for lawsuit. We believe that public pressure can sway the library district into acknowledging that they must indeed follow the provisions of SB 175/240.

We welcome your comments on this page, the blog, and the website.

-Sample Letter-

Hello,
It has come to my attention that the library district employees are preventing the lawful open carry of firearms in the library. District policy actually only prohibits concealed firearms in accordance with NRS 202.3673, though staff members are exceeding their authority by telling those legally openly carrying firearms to leave the library. Administrators have also stated that firearms are not prohibited in the library, creating an unofficial practice in violation of law and at odds with official policy.

Openly carried firearms are indeed permitted in public buildings, such as public libraries.

Local authorities are prohibited by NRS 244.364 and NRS 268.418 (see Senate Bills 175/240, 2015 session) from making its own rules regarding the carry of firearms. The legislature has reserved the right to regulate firearms to itself. I respectfully request that the district instruct its staff to stop preventing those legally carrying firearms and remove Rule 3 from the district’s Rules of Conduct.

Thank you,

DON`T TREAD ON ME · Oct 20, 2015

The Big Guy said:
Yup, he doesn't want to hear from me either. He was more than happy to communicate with me when I was a member, was carrying the load, and he was taking the credit on behalf of the NVFAC. A simple letter from the NVFAC to the Library districts informing them of the law and letting them know that the state NRA affiliate will push the issue might be all it takes.

TBG

It is odd, but Don and I talk about every 2 months. Sometimes he calls me, sometimes I call him. I never joined, but he does run stuff by me to get an opinion, and I do not play Politically correct.

Vegassteve · Oct 20, 2015

DON`T TREAD ON ME said:
It is odd, but Don and I talk about every 2 months. Sometimes he calls me, sometimes I call him. I never joined, but he does run stuff by me to get an opinion, and I do not play Politically correct.

Then maybe your our link.

BB62 · Oct 20, 2015

My 2 cents...

garand_guy said:
It has come to my attention that the library district employees are preventing the lawful open carry of firearms in the library...

I wouldn't say that the employees are "preventing", because IMHO they're not doing so directly, but rather by calling security or the police. Maybe "objecting to" or "incorrectly informing patrons"?

garand_guy said:
......Openly carried firearms are indeed permitted in public buildings, such as public libraries...

I would cite the appropriate statutes, and note that they are silent regarding OC.

garand_guy said:
...I respectfully request that the district instruct its staff to stop preventing those legally carrying firearms and remove Rule 3 from the district’s Rules of Conduct.

My objection is to the use of the word "prevent" and the awkward wording of the phrase "to stop preventing those legally carrying firearms"

garand_guy · Oct 20, 2015

DON`T TREAD ON ME said:
and I do not play Politically correct.

There is a place and a need for both tactics.

Here's my update: Cease and desist is going out to the library district. I sent emails to them and the city council/county commission and encouraged the public to do so. We keep up the public pressure, go to the board meeting, and get them to either acquiesce quietly or to tell us to F-off publicly. If they totally ignore us or tell us to hit the bricks, then we can protest and do a read-in , etc.

Sad that many people don't even know libraries still exist or just think they for free video rentals.

DON`T TREAD ON ME · Oct 20, 2015

garand_guy said:
There is a place and a need for both tactics.

That appears to be somewhat condescending given the fact I have pushed OC through the newspapers, written hundreds ofLetters, (worked pretty good for DMV) appeared on Heidie Harris radio show, Filed dozens of Internal affairs complaints, appeared on several TV channels, Bi-monthly meetings with METRO's Assistant Sheriff, took part in legislature, sued NSCA METRO Hend. Boulder City, NHP all while challenging with activism. I would really like to know what specifically you meant by that comment. Are your tactics more diverse? The hilarious part is, I was quoting Don turner when he stated the reason he uses me for a sounding board... He said I was not politically correct and the appreciates it.

07yzryder · Oct 20, 2015

BB62 said:
My 2 cents...

I wouldn't say that the employees are "preventing", because IMHO they're not doing so directly, but rather by calling security or the police. Maybe "objecting to" or "incorrectly informing patrons"?

I would cite the appropriate statutes, and note that they are silent regarding OC.

My objection is to the use of the word "prevent" and the awkward wording of the phrase "to stop preventing those legally carrying firearms"

I was told by angel (sorry thought it was amanda checked what i had written in my notes and its angel the manager of the Rainbow branch) personally, she walked up backed by security and 2 other employees, a tall male and an average female and told me i had 2 choices leave or be trespassed so in essence they were preventing by way of threats.

Vegassteve · Oct 20, 2015

And I just received this.

Hello Mr. ,

Thank you for contacting us with your concern. The Library District bans bringing or possessing on Library District owned premises any deadly or dangerous weapon, loaded or unloaded, or ammunition or material for a weapon. A “no firearms” sign is posted at all public entrances to libraries. NRS 379.040 (quoted below) requires the Trustees of the Library District to guarantee that libraries are free and accessible to the public. The “no firearms” policy protects the health and safety of the Library District’s patrons, which include young children. The Library District will rationally enforce its “no firearms” policy by asserting trespass claims against violators.

Patrons wishing to use Library District services while in possession of a deadly or dangerous weapon or ammunition or material for a weapon may consult with Library District Administration at 702.507.4400 and/or administration@lvccld.org about alternative sources of library services provided within Clark County by the Library District or others.

NRS 379.040 Library to be free and accessible to public; regulations of trustees. The library and reading room of any consolidated, county, district or town library must forever be and remain free and accessible to the public, subject to such reasonable regulations as the trustees of the library may adopt.
[4:187:1925; NCL § 5598]—(NRS A 1967, 1061; 1985, 10)

Please let us know if you require any further assistance.

Best Regards,

Administration

Las Vegas-Clark County Library District

www.lvccld.org

Vegassteve · Oct 20, 2015

So there it is in writing they will trespass.
All in the name of the children.
Oh and they ban all weapons etc. Except for the guards?

07yzryder · Oct 20, 2015

they are mass sending it out that, that's the exact email i received.

responded with

So then your board of trustees have a written policy (not a sign but written) on not allowing deadly weapons? If so please provide said policy as the quoted NRS says the board of trustees must adopt the policy. Your own website notes (http://www.lvccld.org/pdfs/policies/rules_of_conduct_en.pdf) Firearms are prohibited as outlined in NRS 202.3673 which does not apply to open carry only to conceal carry and this has been challenged and beaten at many state buildings including the DMV.

Also are you familiar with the recently passed SB 175 which states that ONLY the state legislature can regulate the carrying and storage of firearms, firearm accessories and ammunition. If I'm not mistaken you are not the state legislature, which means that any rules you pass are immediately null and void per SB 175 and its preemption of all existing laws regarding firearms.

As to you health and safety, how well did the sign at sandy hook work to prevent the criminal who carried a firearm? How about in Oregon a few weeks back? Do you honestly believe that a criminal will see a sign and opt to back away? By not allowing a person to legally and lawfully carry a firearm according to the law you are violation NRS 379.040, i am a member of the public and you are restricting my rights to access it.

doubt it will help but it will show their due negligence to the law since we are trying to get them to change their rules.

only thing that they will listen to is a judge though.

Edit to add. I reached out to Shelley Shelton who is very active on behalf of us gun owners and she has reached out to their legal team. I will update as I hear back.

07yzryder · Oct 20, 2015

garand_guy said:
Yeah, can we get together one night at PTs or something? My Wednesday night is taken by a lady though.

I think it's DTOM and Steve so far, plus me. Anybody else?

as long as im free i can join. i have a go pro i can leave in my pocket until there is a reason to remove it.

Open carry at library?

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Accomplished Advocate

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Accomplished Advocate

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member