Suggestions for January meeting

[apjonas]

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Ok, Mike - you win. Since as a "super moderator" you inherently have more power than I do, there is no point in continuing the discussion. I expect my posts will start to disappear as your frustration at being unable to answer my points grows. Just for old times' sake I will make a few comments here and then leave you all to yourselves. You choose to dismiss my comments as "conflation" and "trivialities." Fine, although personalbarbs are not a substitute for a coherent argument. If you cannot (or will not) understand what I am saying then I can do nothing further. You (and many others) appear to have a predetermined romanticized idea of open carry and any reality that intrudes on that must be squashed. The real world is more complex than the wording of a statute and the law is not what one's cousin's friend's uncle's fishing buddy says it is, even if the buddy is a LEO. If you sincerely think the reality is different - arrange with pkbites to OC on his beat. He may not hassle you but I'm sure some of his colleagues will. Then tell the judge (if it gets that far) that you cannot be charged with DC because of preemption. Once he gets done laughing his ass off, you may get the case kicked but not for the reason you think. Preemption involves a certain subset of laws. It does not invalidate any local ordinance simply because the behavior may involve a firearm. If the charges are dismissed, repeat the performance until you get tired of being booked and put into a cell (or showing up for arraignment). There is nothing (at this point) stopping any LEO from multiple "catch and release" arrests just to tire you out. As was seen in Hamdan and other cases, what you may consider unambiguous and on point is going to be subject to multiple interpretations. Supreme Court rulings are rarely unanimous and I don't think it's because the justices are legal nitwits. Perhaps you are on a plane above such people but it is they that will decide. At least you acknowledge my point about the inability to carry inside a car. Maybe there's hope after all. Goodbye and Good Luck (really).

Mike wrote:

Apajonas has chosen to conflate the issues and argue trivialities to make this duscussion thread less useful as pertaining to the topic of open carry for folks who are willing to open carry.

To focus:

1. The way to approach a preempted ordinance is to put the local council and police chief on notice that the ordinance is preempted and unenforceable - email, letter, citizen comment period. Then, promptly and continuously engage in the conduct that is purported to be proscribed by the preempted ordiance.

Yep and in a place like Madison you will get yawns or worse. This issue isn't about preempted ordinances regarding posession, purchase, storage etc. It is about OC. Now there are ordinances against OC in some areas but I rather think that the DA would use the DC approach because it avoids the issue of preemption altogether. Your opponents may be wrong but they're not stupid.

2. The way to approach potential charges against open carriers is to review the applicable statutes such as "disorderly conduct." This has been done for WI on this board, and no text or case law has been found to indicate that open carry on foot is vulnerable to this a disorderly charge.

No but there are oft repeated statements by LEO's in certain cities. So far that has been enough to step on OC. The minute OC actually happens you will see a different tactic - detention a/o arrest. You can make your case then but you will pay a price no matter what the outcome and there is always the chance that you will lose. If you want a criminal conviction stapled to your butt for the rest of your life, go right ahead.

3. Obviously, as discussed on this board, the WI car ban and WI case law on what is concealed inside vehicles is a problem - it appears that one can transport unloaded guns encased in cars, but a cased handgun in the passenger compartment may be construed as "concealed" so unloaded trunk carry might be the only lawful place to have a handgun in a vehicle - this limits OC in WI to "on-foot."

I think he's finally got it!

4. So go with the flow and OC on foot as often as weather conditions will allow.

But make sure that Mike will post your bail.

 

[JSK333]

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apjonas, are you familiar with color of law statutes? In addition to the federal one, many States have them as well.

Basically, they state that if you are prohibited from exercising a right under color of law, you have the right to sue the one prohibiting you (whether it is a person or gov't entity).

If the Wisconsin State Constitution recognizes the right to bear arms, and a person is charged with DC for simply bearing arms, can you see how that would be a deprivation of rights under color of law? That is illegal and a well-precedented legal course of action.

I imagine most localities would not want to risk this kind of action being brought against them, which is likely why Mike has so much confidence in people open carrying where such "threats" exist.

Just something to consider.

Solomon

 

[lockman]

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apjonas wrote:

No but there are oft repeated statements by LEO's in certain cities. So far that has been enough to step on OC.

_____________

I worked in law enforcement and public safety for 15 years and I understand what you’re saying. What I think Mike is saying in a nutshell is that someone has to call their bluff! It is not prohibited by statute and protected by the WI constitution.

People reading these threads are duly warned of possible retribution by LEO’s for lawful conduct. Do not feel any guilt on your part if I or anyone else is arrested for calling the bluff, your reservations are noted. Your input has not disregarded.

In VA Mike has called the bluff so we should recognize him rendering advice from a position of victory. We just have to take the advice with WI statutes and case law in mind. In the battle for our rights you are on the same team! You just differ on strategy for WI.

 

[Monkeyleg]

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Dear fellow gun owner:

With Governor Doyle having been re-elected, and the state Senate now controlled by Majority Leader Senator Judy Robson (D-Beloit), we need to do things differently than we have in the past.

To that end, we've scheduled a meeting for Saturday, January 27th in Oshkosh.

All ideas will be open for discussion, from open carry to anything else you might have in mind.

It would be a waste of our past efforts if we just sat on our hands for the next two to four years. Instead, we need to implement fresh, bold ideas if we are to succeed.

I know there are anti-gunners on our email alert list, so it's safe to assume that one or more of them may attend this meeting just to spy. So, any sensitive subjects will not be discussed in depth. Beyond that, though, your input is very much needed.

Here are the details:

Date: Saturday, January 27, 2007

Meeting time: from 10 am until we're finished.

Place: HJ's hotel/motel, which is located just off Highway 41 in Oshkosh. Take the Highway 21 exit (exit #119), and the hotel is right there. The meeting room is upstairs.

We'll have seating for fifty people, although the room will hold more than that. Please RSVP if you plan on attending so we can order more chairs if need be.

Thanks,
Dick Baker
Treasurer, WCCA

 

[Shotgun]

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I think people in other states need to be cognizant of the fact that in Wisconsin any idea of the police or a majority of the public being COMFORTABLE with the concept of citizens carrying firearms in URBAN parts of the state hasn't existed during our lifetime. I do not agree with those who believe that in the larger cities that it would be relatively rare to have a less-than-friendly encounter with law enforcement should one OC. If you are so confident in your position, then I invite you to strap on your gun and stroll around downtown Milwaukee, Madison, Green Bay, Racine or Kenosha, Janesville or Beloit. Instead I believe it would be rare not to have such an encounter. Rightly or wrongly, the Milwaukee PD has a reputation for being trigger happy**. OK, perhaps that's amistaken perception, but who wants to be the first to put it to the test? I'm 100% confident that OC is legal in Wisconsin, and even that you'd ultimately win in the courts if cited. But there are plenty of examples of things that have been legal and still resisted by the authorities. Let's not forget that at one time it took armed soldiers to ensure black students could exercise their legal right to attend a particular school. Just because it's legal in theory doesn't mean it's tolerated in practice.

(**I don't believe Madison Police, as a department, has the same reputation as Milwaukee, but it is a department run by a left-wing city government. And Madison has a strong anti-gun tradition. I have listened to the police scanner enough to know that when a person is reported as having a firearm it is not treated like a routine "check man" call. It is treated as an emergency. I've been tempted to call and ask the dispatcher why they are sounding the emergency signal when there was no crime being described.)

Another thing that is different about Wisconsin is this: We don't have concealed carry. PERIOD. Therefore, we aren't ONLY or even primarily interested in just promoting open carry. We want both CC and OC. And we can use OC as a means to achieve legal CC. I can understand why people in other states resist the idea of "marches" and organized OC-- you don't NEED marches in other states. But here, we have a political goal, which is probably a goal that can be achieved in part by use of organized OC events.

I agree that education of LE and the public is by far the greatest tool we can use, but in Wisconsin the learning curve is unusually steep. What might look to outsiders as baby-steps is simply being realistic in Wisconsin.

 

[JSK333]

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As a previous poster in this thread, I can say that I do recommend open carry walks. I participated in one before Ohio had our CHL law, and it helped us get it.

If you think that you will be harrassed by LEOs for OC, then certainly going in numbers would be better. It would also make it more likely that any encounters would be picked up by reporters, which would help to publicize the fact that it is legal.

Solomon

 

[minuteman]

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Monkeyleg wrote:

Dear fellow gun owner:

With Governor Doyle having been re-elected, and the state Senate now controlled by Majority Leader Senator Judy Robson (D-Beloit), we need to do things differently than we have in the past.

To that end, we've scheduled a meeting for Saturday, January 27th in Oshkosh.

All ideas will be open for discussion, from open carry to anything else you might have in mind.

It would be a waste of our past efforts if we just sat on our hands for the next two to four years. Instead, we need to implement fresh, bold ideas if we are to succeed.

I know there are anti-gunners on our email alert list, so it's safe to assume that one or more of them may attend this meeting just to spy. So, any sensitive subjects will not be discussed in depth. Beyond that, though, your input is very much needed.

Here are the details:

Date: Saturday, January 27, 2007

Meeting time: from 10 am until we're finished.

Place: HJ's hotel/motel, which is located just off Highway 41 in Oshkosh. Take the Highway 21 exit (exit #119), and the hotel is right there. The meeting room is upstairs.

We'll have seating for fifty people, although the room will hold more than that. Please RSVP if you plan on attending so we can order more chairs if need be.

Thanks,
Dick Baker
Treasurer, WCCA

Id like to attend if I am welcome, and as long as me bearing arms doesnt cause any problems for you.

 

[Monkeyleg]

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Minuteman, your presence is very welcome.

As to your bearing arms, that's at the discretion of the owners of the hotel/motel. I don't know if it's a chain or not. If it is, my guess is that they'll say "no."

At our July fund-raising banquet here in Milwaukee, I asked the managers of the place if they minded if one of our guests carried openly. They said they had no problem.

Bring your gun if you wish, but be prepared to have to put in in your trunk.

It's their property, not ours.

 

[Gray Peterson]

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Throwing out unsupported opinion and making vague statements does not advance the communal understanding.

Apologies, jonas, if you look at the Washington and Oregon forums, we've delt with some pretty bad and hostile law enforcement in those states. We are turning the tide there with training bulletins, shift briefing emails, and the like, getting law enforcement officers up on the law.

-Lonnie Wilson