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Your Gun Was Made To Comfort – Not for Comfort

CA_Libertarian

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Venator wrote:
If open carry is a bad tactic why do cops open carry? If open carry people are such targets, why don't criminals shoot every copy they see before committing a crime?
While I disagree with Greg Perry's unsupported conclusion, I have to kindly take issue with your counter-argument.

Wearing a LEO uniform is a target/detterent enough. If someone is determined to commit a crime, they will pop the cop first - gun visible or not. If they're not determined, I doubt they would bother checking if the cop is OCing before being deterred.

It all comes down to two things (in my mind): element of surprise and response time (draw speed). Each person must weigh the pros and cons and decide OC vs CC for themselves and for each situation they're going into.
 

les_aker

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radwood wrote:
I agree with this completely. If they ARE there for the killing, then they may kill me first, but guess who's next? Everyone else.

Petty criminals just want the quick cash, and carry a gun as a bluff.

There appear to be a great many "real life" things that Greg Perry just doesn't get about open carry.

Unfortunately, it looks like something as simple as getting a few emails from people that do get it isn't likely to change his mind. Which means that he's going to continue to write articles and be viewed by some people as an authority on the subject even though he's got it completely wrong, a la Jim Zumbo.
 

Tomahawk

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les_aker wrote:
a la Jim Zumbo.

Ah, I was waiting for someone to drop the Z-word! Sadly, from the answer he gave you it may be warranted.

I hate to pick on someone who preaches the 2A like this guy does, but even people on "our side" have prejudices. And I dislike know-it-alls, which the gun-owner world is rife with. Walk into almost any gunshop or visit any gun website, including this one, and you can get a free earful of BS from dealers, patrons, and internet commandos, all of think their version of "common sense" needs no facts to back it up and should be taken at face value.

Zumbo indeed.
 

les_aker

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Tomahawk wrote:
Ah, I was waiting for someone to drop the Z-word! Sadly, from the answer he gave you it may be warranted.


He sure got defensive when I asked him if he had any evidence to support his opinion. In a way, he sounded a lot like the people that were protesting the VCDL Bloomberg Gun Giveaway last summer.
 

Sean

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Venator wrote:
If open carry is a bad tactic why do cops open carry?
Cops in uniform open carry. Plain clothes cops do not. My personal opinion I can draw from my hip holster a lot faster than my shoulder rig and it feels more natural. But we keep saying show us evidence that BG would "mark" someone in OC first....well there really isn't that much OC going on to get a basis. However I do know they always take the bank guard first, maybe they don't kill but they nuetralize.
 

les_aker

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Sean wrote:
Cops in uniform open carry. Plain clothes cops do not. My personal opinion I can draw from my hip holster a lot faster than my shoulder rig and it feels more natural. But we keep saying show us evidence that BG would "mark" someone in OC first....well there really isn't that much OC going on to get a basis. However I do know they always take the bank guard first, maybe they don't kill but they nuetralize.

It's been a long time since I've been in a bank that had a "guard".

What we have is the absense of evidence. In all of those 7-11 videos Greg Perry was pushing as what criminals do, I haven't ever seen one where anyone walked in and immediately shot someone that was open carrying. Not one.
 

imperialism2024

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les_aker wrote:
Sean wrote:
Cops in uniform open carry. Plain clothes cops do not. My personal opinion I can draw from my hip holster a lot faster than my shoulder rig and it feels more natural. But we keep saying show us evidence that BG would "mark" someone in OC first....well there really isn't that much OC going on to get a basis. However I do know they always take the bank guard first, maybe they don't kill but they nuetralize.
It's been a long time since I've been in a bank that had a "guard".

What we have is the absense of evidence. In all of those 7-11 videos Greg Perry was pushing as what criminals do, I haven't ever seen one where anyone walked in and immediately shot someone that was open carrying. Not one.
Is the fact (?) that bank guards are taken out first a result of the fact that they are visibly armed, or a result of a lack of situational awareness on the part of the guard?

I tend to look at the "OCing makes you a target" argument in terms of situational awareness. OCing forces a person to constantly be in condition yellow at a minimum, and can understandably take more mentally draining. CCing allows a person to "safely" lapse into condition white, or even stay in condition white, as they do not need to be constantly aware of their surroundings in order to not get shot. If a standard sh**ple CCer (maybe there needs to be a new term for that?) happens to ignore the guys wearing ski masks running up to the convenience store and shouting at the cashier to give them money, and only realizes the situation about 15 seconds after it begins, he rationalizes that he can stealthily then seek cover, fish out his compact 9mm, chamber a round, and then surprise the BGs by popping off a few rounds as they're running away from the crime scene. No situational awareness required, and laziness is not immediately life threatening.

I always say that the primary self-defense weapon is the human brain. A gun is merely a tool to aid the brain. OCing makes that tool more accessible and allows for a better tool for the job (try CCing a full-size magnum-caliber handgun). An OCer who exercises proper situational awareness need not worry about getting picked off as the first target.
 

dittos

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Thanks Les_Aker, I appreciate the exposure you're giving me. - Sincerely offered, Greg Perry
 

les_aker

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dittos wrote:
Thanks Les_Aker, I appreciate the exposure you're giving me. - Sincerely offered, Greg Perry

Welcome to OCDO, Greg. I hope you actually spend some time here learning about OC prior to spouting any more erroneous assumptions based simply on your "feelings" about the subject.
 

Venator

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Sean wrote:
Venator wrote:
If open carry is a bad tactic why do cops open carry?
Cops in uniform open carry. Plain clothes cops do not. My personal opinion I can draw from my hip holster a lot faster than my shoulder rig and it feels more natural. But we keep saying show us evidence that BG would "mark" someone in OC first....well there really isn't that much OC going on to get a basis. However I do know they always take the bank guard first, maybe they don't kill but they nuetralize.
Plain clothes cops do indeed open carry, they may have a sport coat over the side arm in cold weather but the holster and gun areboth designed foropen carry. When the weather is hot the coat isoff and the weapon is in an open carry mode.
 

Decoligny

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Venator wrote:
Sean wrote:
Venator wrote:
If open carry is a bad tactic why do cops open carry?
Cops in uniform open carry. Plain clothes cops do not. My personal opinion I can draw from my hip holster a lot faster than my shoulder rig and it feels more natural. But we keep saying show us evidence that BG would "mark" someone in OC first....well there really isn't that much OC going on to get a basis. However I do know they always take the bank guard first, maybe they don't kill but they nuetralize.
Plain clothes cops do indeed open carry, they may have a sport coat over the side arm in cold weather but the holster and gun areboth designed foropen carry. When the weather is hot the coat isoff and the weapon is in an open carry mode.

Only partly true...some plainclothes cops open carry, others CC.

My brother-in-law (enforcement) is a Detective Lt and carries his Glock concealed.
 

Venator

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Decoligny wrote:
Venator wrote:
Sean wrote:
Venator wrote:
If open carry is a bad tactic why do cops open carry?
Cops in uniform open carry. Plain clothes cops do not. My personal opinion I can draw from my hip holster a lot faster than my shoulder rig and it feels more natural. But we keep saying show us evidence that BG would "mark" someone in OC first....well there really isn't that much OC going on to get a basis. However I do know they always take the bank guard first, maybe they don't kill but they nuetralize.
Plain clothes cops do indeed open carry, they may have a sport coat over the side arm in cold weather but the holster and gun areboth designed foropen carry. When the weather is hot the coat isoff and the weapon is in an open carry mode.

Only partly true...some plainclothes cops open carry, others CC.

My brother-in-law (enforcement) is a Detective Lt and carries his Glock concealed.
True...not many things are 100%, but I think the point is valid, many PC LOE's open carry to some degree. Many off-duty LOE's DO truly CC, that is a small firearm inside the waist band...etc.
 

dittos

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Les, I'd like to see YOU provide proof that open carry is safer than concealed carry.

YOU are the one who bears the burden of proof since you tout that as being more important than observation, wisdom, and rational thought.

I'm serious. I cannot believe you picked this as your big battle and so I think before you question my assumption and conclusion you should provide evidence that the opposite is true.

I provided a web site whose forums are filled with countless current and former SWAT, military, and cops as well as some of the top gun-training instructors in the country (and therefore the world) and you jst keep saying I need to provide proof instead of responding to the rational thought I've provided you.
 

les_aker

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dittos wrote:
Les, I'd like to see YOU provide proof that open carry is safer than concealed carry.

YOU are the one who bears the burden of proof since you tout that as being more important than observation, wisdom, and rational thought.

You can be as serious as you'd like, Greg. But first I would have had to actually claim that "open carry is safer than concealed carry". Which is something that I have not done. I simply questioned your fact-by-simple-assertion opinions.

You claimed that open carry was dangerous because you knew how criminals thought, and they would kill people that open carry. I asked you to provide some evidence that your claims regarding people being killed by criminals because they were open carrying was true. Some facts to support your unsubstantiated opinion.

To date, not a single fact has magically appeared to support your opinion. All you did in your emailed response (which is posted in this thread) was show your true colors regarding how you feel about having people question your obviously superior fact-less opinion.



dittos wrote:
I provided a web site whose forums are filled with countless current and former SWAT, military, and cops as well as some of the top gun-training instructors in the country (and therefore the world) and you jst keep saying I need to provide proof instead of responding to the rational thought I've provided you.

You can provide statesments of their opinion until you're blue in the face, Greg. What I asked you for was something called a "fact". Not an "opinion". Over the years as CCW laws have been passed and state preemption has come into place, "former SWAT, military, and cops" of all sorts have whined continually about how the street were going to run red with blood because they could no longer deny permits just because they felt like it, because people could carry in government buildings and libraries, etc. While that was their opinion, the facts are quite a bit different.

I realize that you're accustomed to just writing whatever you'd like and not having to worry about anyone with any real knowledge of the topic being around to question you afterward. But here at OCDO, when you post bullsh*t people don't waste any time telling you that you're full of it. You've found a whole forum of people gathered together talking about open carry, why and how they open carry, where they open carry, and their real life experiences related to open carry. When I compare their real life experiences to your opinion, it trumps your opinion every time.
 

Tomahawk

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Greg (I am assuming that's really you), I have to agree with Les.

No one is claiming that OC is safer than CC. Only that OC is usually okay.

Cops, military, SWAT, etc. all approach the carrying of arms by average citizens with their own preconceptions. For the most part, even those who are pro-2A take a while to get used to citizens carrying on the street.

I am former USMC and the first time I ever carried a pistol concealed I felt the way you say you felt when you carried open into the store. The idea of OC scared me just as much, at first. However, the biggest thing I fear is not criminals picking me off, it's soccer moms over-reacting and calling the police. (Only cure for that is to make it more common).

And that fear of unwanted attention can influence your thoughts and opinions on methods of carry, and lead you to embrace ideas that it's not "tactically sound" based on no real evidence, facts, or statistics whatever.

Reading your article, I also have to question your assertion that looking harmless also avoids trouble. Sometimes that is true, but sometimes it just attracts the attention of wolves who prey on the weak and vulnerable. Keeping your bearing, staying alert, looking people in the eye can be a warning to thugs to go find an easier target. OC'ing can sometimes enhance this effect, but I will not claim it is always the best answer.

There are places I don't like to OC, mainly places with dense crowds. In fact, I usually CC, but there are times when it's just not practical to CC, like riding my bike on a hot summer day, for instance.

Getting back to what Les was saying, this website has been known as a no-BS zone. Back up your assertions with facts or citations, or say up front when it's just your opinion, and people here will have a healthy discussion with you.
 

dougwg

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Greg,

Welcome to OCDO. :cool:

Please recount for us your personal experience of where a bad guy shot the good guy that was open carrying first.

And please don't go away saying to yourself "these guys are morons".

We like to "take it all in" and then try to make an informed decision as to where, when and how to both OC and CC.
 

les_aker

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dougwg wrote:
Greg,

Welcome to OCDO. :cool:

Please recount for us your personal experience of where a bad guy shot the good guy that was open carrying first.

And please don't go away saying to yourself "these guys are morons".

We like to "take it all in" and then try to make an informed decision as to where, when and how to both OC and CC.

Greg is having difficulty dealing with reality, Doug. He has decided not to take up the challenge of actually providing facts to support his opinion. He has an entire forum of people with real life open carry experiences and he's afraid to engage them in anything approaching a rational adult discussion.

Instead he has decided to continue to send me email with opinions that don't really even support his own fact-less opinion. Color me shocked.



From: Greg Perry - The BidMentor [mailto:Greg@BidMentor.com]
Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 10:18 PM
To: 'Les Aker'
Subject: RE: Your concealed carry item



Les, this guy is probably really a dummy, isn’t he?



Imagine, a retired Police Officer saying my best advice was telling people NOT to carry open but HE NEVER PROVIDED DOCUMENTED PROOF WITH REAMS OF STUDIES AND FACTS AND ENCYCLOPEDIAS AND U.N. STUDIES AND GOVERNMENTAL STATISTICS PROVING HIS POINT.



You should write him and tell him that he shouldn’t be making observations unless he provides Les-approved statistics, validated by three or more independent agencies.



Greg Perry



From: suesssnapshot@aol.com [mailto:suesssnapshot@aol.com]
Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 8:22 PM
To: Greg@BidMentor.com
Subject: Your concealed carry item



Greg;

I just finished your item on the physical issues of concealed carry. The best advice you have given is for the novice or one not trained in weapons retention is DON'T open carry in congested areas.

I am a retired Police Officer ( Suffolk County PD , NY ) 25 years, department regulations at that time required carry 24/7.
A later on-after-retirement position involved doing collateral fraud recovery for several major financial institutions, ( still current at it ).
residing in the outer Charlotte, NC rim. In the 40 or so years of carrying concealed, I have never been "made". My authorization to carry concealed nowis a NC License that is good in 36 states but that is overwhelmed by HR-218 covering active and retired L..E.. that remain firearms qualified, this isgood anywhere the US flag is flown, with the standard exceptions, I do this annual.

With the right holster and most important, is a belt designed for a holster rig, I have a unit the has a jointed metal spine that spans the entire belt length, it supports a SIG P-220 or P-239 SAS/DAK with NO sag or twist, the butt can always be felt gently touching the upper waist line in the slightly forward three o'clock position. In NC a bloused type pull-over collar type shirt is considered "nice daily attire", the elastic shirt band is just right for keeping the high carry rig covered.When going to just a "T" shirt and cargo shorts I suffer very little loss in available firepower by by going to a KAHR PM-40 with a drop in Mitch Rosen holster inthe R/F pocket, spare mag in L/F pocket held in place by a safariland pocket mag clip, to the eye it looks like a small lock blade knife and draws no attention. Another favorite choice is the GALCO lite weight full adjustable shoulder rig, spare mag onthe oppositeside for some counter weight. When the time is taken to custom adjust all the swivels and tabs on this rig it carries with no effort. The shoulder rig is probably the most comfortable and accessible when in a vehicle, the trick is to make sure the harness drops do not get too long. I am now scheduled to give some concealed carry seminars at my local GANDER MOUNTAIN store, they are selling about 300 to 400 handguns per month !!, mostly to young and mid-aged females, home owners and professionals, the law abiding folks are getting the message.

Thanks for listening
Richard Suess
XXX XXX-XXXX
Mooresville, NC



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radwood

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Hey Les, let me give you some "facts" to respond to him with :p

I'm in the Army, and the best advice I can offer regarding carrying weapons is that people shouldn't carry any kind of weapon without some due diligence to learn the risks and laws involved, not to mention marksmanship and retention.

I like using safariland holsters personally. I think they offer good retention, and with the 567 UBL they ride high and close to the body, allowing for adjustable cant. On a good gun belt this is a fantastic setup. I am authorized to carry by the US Constitution. I've been shooting for years, and my father is a certified firearms and hunter safety instructor, and has given many classes. I am familiar with all of the material he has taught and know it pretty much as well as he does.


In Greg's world, the only part of this statement that is important would be the part where I say people shouldn't carry any kind of weapon. My one qualified statement that doesn't really go with the rest of my rant is the vital fact to prove that peopel shouldn't carry weapons.
 

deepdiver

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I think the regulars here can guess my opinion already - there are times it is more appropriate to OC and times it is more appropriate to CC and both are valid, constitutionally protected methods of self-defense.

I totally agree with Greg Perry that there are situations wherein OC is very likely to get you killed or at least severely wounded preemptively.

I totally agree with the several OCDO members who assert that there are situations wherein CC is very likely to get you killed or at least severely wounded while trying to dig your gun out of deep concealment.

I totally disagree with anyone who says that one or the other is better in every single realistic situation in which an American civilian is likely to find him or herself. That makes as much sense as arguing that one particular firearm is the best gun for any situation.

Personally I do like to carry in a way that my pistol is comfortable and am typically able to do so, so there is no dichotomy for me between "to comfort" and "for comfort". Most of the time I am successful and don't even think about it being there. It is as commonplace to me now as my wallet in my pocket or my cell phone on my belt. But I am stunningly aware if any of those items is missing. I generally CC because of my local laws, but I sometimes conceal minimally and am printing like a Xerox on overdrive. Other times I conceal with a pair of khaki slacks and a tucked in golf shirt such that only the most very observant would make me on a second look over. All depends on where I am going and who I am likely to see.

And all this talk about "tactical" really gets old. So very mall ninja after a while. Let's talk about strategy for a while instead. Is OC a good strategy independent of tactics?
 
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