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when did arkansas loose this right

gruntpain1775

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I'm going to have to be honest here, I don't really care when we lost the right to OC. I am concerned with getting that right back though. We are one of the few states that doesn't allow OC of a firearm without a permit. That needs to be changed.
 

Chickenwang

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gruntpain1775 wrote:
I'm going to have to be honest here, I don't really care when we lost the right to OC. I am concerned with getting that right back though. We are one of the few states that doesn't allow OC of a firearm without a permit. That needs to be changed.




Grunt it’s kind of like losing your car keys. What is the first thing you do, you try to remember the last place you had them right. I’m not saying you couldn’t find them without doing this but it certainly helps speed up the process. This information could help us structure our argument and give us direction in getting them back. It’s not useless work but if you feel your efforts would be better suited in other areas of research or publicity, well then by all means tackle another aspect of this.

In addition to this information it may be worthwhile to compose a complete list of all the unclear and undefined portions of the laws. I think this would be a good little list to have for an interview. This list should make it easy for others to see the train wreck that is Arkansas gun laws. SA-TX has made a good start of this earlier in this thread. Lets make sure we have ALL the errors, then work on cleaning them up for presentation.

I also noticed you didn't make any suggestions as to some other avenues we could take. I am anxious to hear those as well. Thanks for showing an interest.
 

gruntpain1775

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Train wreck of laws is being to nice:D.

Makeing a list of laws that needs to be changed is a great idea, but I think when it gets presented to the legislators it would be best to do it in small bites first. Otherwise they would probably try to ignore us a little more.

You want my suggestion as to an avenue that can be taken, her it is. I'm currently trying to find a good hosting site and start a website for Arkansas gun owners. A place where the laws can be found, bills in General Assembly seen, a forum for the members to discuss things and keep conected. I'm wanting to start an orginization that will represent ALL Arkansas gun owners and go to the Capitol and tell our Senators and Represntatives that this is what the current law is, this is confusing, this needs to be changed to allow this. And if they don't listen that same orginization will challenge the laws of the State in court. I'm a member of a group like that right now in Georgia and they are awsome, and have done a lot to fix georgias laws. I'm moving back home to Arkansas soon and I want Arkansas to have a group that stands up for us Arkansas Gun owners. If we can organize something like that then it will give us more weight in the Capitol to change things.

As for what the laws are that I think are confusing:

1. The "upon a journey". Does that mean if I'm going 200 miles away I can carry just like a person who has their permit? Does it apply only if I'm driving?

2. Where is the law that defines a "certified firearms instructor". I havn't found it yet. Who certifies them? what is the criteria for being a certified firearms instructor? I could call the ASP but I have found that when it comes to laws the last people I would ask are the police.

Laws that need to be changed:

1. Training requirement gone completly. (This will be the hardest fight I think)

2. Since training is a requirment then retired and former military should be able to use their DD214 as proof of training. (This one is currently being looked at by several Reps. I contacted them and they are willing to work on it. I started with this one just to get a "feeler" for who would be more Pro-gun and who would be anti/gun)

3. Price of a CHCL needs to be reduced. By making it a little more cheaper it will increase the amount of people who want one. We get cheaper permits and the State will make more revenue off of it. I would love to see the permit gone period, but again probably not going to happen. But I would fight for it.

4. Churches, sports events, and Publicly owned buildings and transportation need to be removed from the areas that I'm not allowed to carry at.

5. School/college carry. School teachers should be allowed to carry as well as college students and teachers.

6. Open Carry (preferably without a permit)

7. Strike the law allowing Counties and cities to ban carry in their parks. Arkansas has pre-empted all gun laws except that one. It needs to be pre-empted as well.

8. A Law limiting the ASP to no more than 30 days to issue a CHCL.



Anyone else want to add to that list?

Does that answer your question chickenwang? Organizing is the key to our success. We need to form a group. ARCCA is there but they have done nothing. We need to organize and be pro-active.
 

Chickenwang

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gruntpain1775 wrote:
...but I think when itgets presented to the legislators it would be best to do it in small bites first...

...I'm currently trying to find a good hosting site and start a website for Arkansas gun owners. A place where the laws can be found, bills in General Assembly seen, a forum for the members to discuss things and keep conected. I'm wanting to start an orginization that will represent ALL Arkansas gun owners...


This petition was not created to be physically submitted to the Governor and Legislature. It was designed to act as a barometer gauging Arkansans support of open carry. When a state generates as much publicity on an issue as Texas has you don’t really have to physically submit your petition, as the key players will have already heard the voice of the people.

I think an organization for Arkansas would be an invaluable asset. If you need any help in that venture please let me know and I will do what I can to help. I have been watching Arkansas threads to get a feel for who I might ask to assist me in creating such an organization. I am glad to see your willingness to head such an organization. I’m sure you will encounter many others here that will be glad to help as well.

I agree that many laws need to be changed. I’m not as certain as to whether it’s a good idea or not to take on all these changes at once. I began with open carry and I personally would like to concentrate my efforts there before trying to change the cost of acquiring a CHL. Kind of going back to your "small bites" approach.

So when are you moving back Grunt?
 

gruntpain1775

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I'm moving back in November. That is when my Service to the Army is up. This year makes 10 years I have been doing it. But yea, November. I am still writing the Arkansas State Legislators and things of that nature while I am here. I'm going to send a letter to former Gov. Huckabee and see if he would be willing to help change the laws as well. I'm sure he could provide a "insider" view on how to do it. I have exchanged e-mails with him before, great guy.

I agree, Open Carry should be on the top of the list. Do that then it would allow more people eyes on and see that guns are not bad. Would open the door so to speak. It can be done, we just have to work on it.

Well, if you are willing to help I could sure use it! I'm not very tech savy so I'm trying to find someone who could help set up a website first. I think a forum is the key to getting the word spread. Spread the word=increase membership=more people to help get laws changed. After the website all would be left to do is set up the Orginization portion. Find some, or at least 1, good lawyer who is pro-gun and willing to represent the group and it's members should the need to fight a law in court arises. As far as membership for the group goes I'm thinking a small fee, like 10-15 bucks (after everything is up and running). that money would be used soely for legal action and advertisment for the group. no members or "leaders" of the group make a profit. Anyway, I'm getting ahead of myself.

Like I said earlier, I'm in Georgia right now. I'm a member of their gun rights group. If we can establish a group in Arkansas like they have hear in Georgia the things we could get changed would be great. georgiacarry.org is the group. you can go to their website and see what they are all about. We need this in Arkansas, and I'm willing to get something started if people are willing to help start it and get it going. I thin kif we do something like this we can be successful.
 

Chickenwang

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I just sent word out to a friend of mine who is a web designer. He's a busy man these days as we all are but I will see what I can do. The main issue is the cost of the sight and its upkeep. we can get it done the question is what can we afford. I know a little bit about these machines I'll even see if i may want to contribute to this website. I'm almost certain I could make one, the question is would it impede my 2A work.

I wont call on everyone with a copy of Front Page but if there is anyone proficient in web designthat wants to donate some time this could be your chance.
 

gruntpain1775

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Awsome! I understand what you mean about the time it would take to maintain the website. I'm thinking that it would be great to have 2-4 people who could take care of it. Kinda split the differance. As far as what can be afforded, I'm not sure. After membership increase a small portion could be used for that. For now I'm willing to use some of my own money if the cost isn't outragous. The owner of georgiapacking.org runs his site at about a $50 cost a month. I can afford something like that.
 

Chickenwang

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To answer the original question, “When did Arkansas lose this right?” I have done some looking around. I contacted the Library of Congress who directed me to the Arkansas State University Law Library. Because they can’t “do the research for you” it turned from, what is the answer, to do you have the answer? This is the email I received from them today.





Mr. Martin--

We have -- possibly -- the materials you need to research the ban on open-carry of handguns. I don't think what you want is in the Arkansas Annotated Code. I believe that you will need to research "Acts of Arkansas," which is the collection of the legislative acts and bills produced by the Arkansas State Legislature.

I worked on it for about six hours yesterday and came up short. The problem is in the language used to phrase the bill. I don't know the name of the bill or its number, so I don't know how it was phrased. I tried researching various words and phrases: public display, firearms, handguns, open-carry, (with and without the hyphen), ban, prohibit, and prohibitive. None of these seem to be the language used in the act or bill. And without the appropriate keywords, I could not determine which volume of the Acts of Arkansas holds the ban.

There are around 200 volumes that comprise the "Acts of Arkansas," dating back to to 1834, when Arkansas was still a territory.

I did discover the groundwork that is apparently the legal justification for the ban on open-carry in Arkansas. The Arkansas Supreme Court decided, in 1876, that the 2nd Amendment to the U.S Constitution was not meant to be held as a restraint against State law.

From the "Arkansas Digest", V. 17A:

"The provisions of Article ii of Amendments to the Constitution of the United States, guaranteeing the the citizens the right to keep and bear arms, was not intended as a restraint on State legislation." Fife v. State, 31 Ark. 455

"The provisions of Article 11, sec 5 of the Constitution of the State, securing to the citizens the right to keep and bear arms for their common defense, relates to such arms as are used for purposes of war; and does not prevent the legislature from prohibiting the wearing of such weapons as are not used in civilized warfare, and would not contribute to the common defense."
Fife v. State, 31 Ark. 455

In other words, in 1876 the Arkansas Supreme Court decided that States Rights trumps the 2nd Amendment and that the state has the right to determine its own limits and prohibitions concerning weapons.

I am limited as to how much time I can work on a given project and I have many other duties. If you want to come by the ASU library, I can show the Acts of Arkansas, wherein I believe is the legislative ban you are looking for, but I cannot work any longer on this project.

You probably need to contact a law librarian to help you with your research. I am merely a certified paralegal. I believe you were sent an earlier email with some contact suggestions. I also add that you might contact Rod Miller, who is a government documents librarian at the Arkansas Supreme Court Library in Little Rock, or the law librarian at UALR.

--Mark Berky
Microforms supervisor




I don’t see myself loading up in the next week to head down and research this but I wanted to share with you my findings.
 

gruntpain1775

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That is interesting. but I would think that Heller V D.C would in effect overturn that decision.
 

Chickenwang

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Chickenwang wrote:
In other words, in 1876 the Arkansas Supreme Court decided that States Rights trumps the 2nd Amendment and that the state has the right to determine its own limits and prohibitions concerning weapons.

--Mark Berky
Microforms supervisor

Arkansas has preemptionof gun laws.

"A local unit of government shall not enact any ordinance or regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any other manner, the ownership, transfer, transportation, carrying, or possession of firearms, ammunition for firearms, or components of firearms, except as otherwise provided in state or federal law."

The preemption is just being ignored.
 

Chickenwang

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Chickenwang wrote:
I worked on it for about six hours yesterday and came up short. The problem is in the language used to phrase the bill. I don't know the name of the bill or its number, so I don't know how it was phrased. I tried researching various words and phrases: public display, firearms, handguns, open-carry, (with and without the hyphen), ban, prohibit, and prohibitive. None of these seem to be the language used in the act or bill. And without the appropriate keywords, I could not determine which volume of the Acts of Arkansas holds the ban.

--Mark Berky
Microforms supervisor


At the bottom of 5-73-120 there are some acts listed.

History.Acts 1975, No. 696, § 1; 1981, No. 813, § 1; A.S.A. 1947, § 41-3151; Acts 1987, No. 266, § 1; 1987, No. 556, § 1; 1987, No. 734, § 1; 1995, No. 832, § 1; 2003, No. 1267, § 2; 2005, No. 1994, § 293.

This is where I would begin my search in the Acts of Arkansas.

If anyone in the area of the library decides to check into this please report back on your findings.
 
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