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VCDL is an "Extremist Gun Rights Organization" according to the leftist media.

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Repeater

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WaPo Editorial Board thinks gun lobby is extremist

See here, now ...

Virginia Republicans dismiss gun safety bills and unwisely want to lift restrictions
Most people age 21 or older can openly carry a loaded handgun even without a permit, and in 2012 the state scrapped a law limiting handgun purchases by individuals to one a month, which worked for almost 20 years.

That’s still not enough for the pro-gun crowd in Richmond, which persists in trying to expand gun rights and widen loopholes at every opportunity. It’s not enough for Sen. Thomas A. Garrett Jr. (R-Louisa), who sponsored a bill that would allow people to carry concealed weapons on school property outside of normal school hours (when plenty of students still might be on the premises). Fortunately, that measure has stalled.

Other GOP-backed bills that seem likely to pass would allow holders of concealed handgun permits to openly carry loaded long-barreled weapons (negating local ordinances that may forbid it in the interest of safety) and grant concealed handgun permits that would never expire, thereby neutering the state’s ability, under the current five-year renewal process, to determine whether a gun owner had lost his or her sight or is suffering from Alzheimer’s disease.

Yeah, that's extreme!

But wait, Progressive Virginia thinks trickery is afoot:

NRA-Friendly Lawmakers in Virginia General Assembly Killing Gun Safety Legislation Through Backroom Dealing
Less than two weeks into the General Assembly session, Republican lawmakers have resorted to backroom dealings in order to kill a package of gun safety bills in an effort to avoid attracting attention from the media and public. This strategy comes on the heels of days of bad publicity regarding procedural snafus in the assembly.

The Virginia House of Delegates’ Militia, Police, and Public Safety Subcommittee #1 has called an emergency meeting today, immediately after the House adjourns in House room #2 in the Capitol, rather than in the General Assembly building where the committee regularly meets Thursday afternoons at 4 p.m.

...

“These lawmakers appear to be tired of the pesky public watching them defeating such common-sense measures, so they have moved their tactics behind doors, in secret meetings, and through procedural gimmicks,” said Josh Horwitz, executive director of the Coalition to Stop Gun Violence.

In response to this unprecedented move by Subcommittee #1, Lori Haas, Virginia state director for the Coalition to Stop Gun Violence said, “The committee has had ample time, even canceling meetings on Jan. 15 and 22, to hear these bills at regularly scheduled hearings. To call an emergency meeting for no apparent reason is purposefully leaving the public out of the conversation. What committee members really want is to only hear from the gun lobby, not those who are more concerned with the safety of Virginia families.

Pesky?
 

utbagpiper

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As for me, I have two issues with VCDL's tactics.

First is their incrementalist approach to gun rights. Their approach is: Make it a privilege for Concealed Handgun Permit keepers first, then later try to expand the privilege to a right. When examined objectively other states have had far greater success just demanding their gun rights.

Incrementalism has worked very well in several States of which I'm aware. It certainly worked well for our opponents for many years and is their current favored strategy as well. Legislators (and the public) are far more willing to accept smallish changes rather than large changes...in either direction.

As an example of incrementalism Twenty-five years ago almost nobody could legally carry a gun for self defense in Utah. We had discriminatory permits and most of those had tight restrictions on them like time of day to go make deposits at the bank.

Today, for anyone with a permit, from anywhere in the nation, there is almost no place (other than federal off limits locations) in Utah that you are likely to go where it is not legal to take your gun including most government buildings/meetings, schools, college campuses, bars, and even private businesses that post "no gun" signs. School districts, public colleges, and most government agencies are prohibited from anti-gun policies.

Last year both houses of our legislature passed constitutional carry. Our gov vetoed it. The bill will run again this year.

Along the way we've removed the requirement to have a permit to carry in your car. We passed parking lot preemption for employees that doesn't require a permit. There is a bill this year to remove what is probably a 50 year old law against having a gun on a train or bus without a permit.

Which States have gone directly to constitutional carry without some incremental steps in between?

I know that Arizona had a shall issue permit available to residents only (along with permit free OC) for a long time before they got full constitutional concealed carry. If I'm not mistaken, along the way they moved to issuing permits to non-residents and have chipped away a bit at off limits locations.

I don't know the details but Wiki claims that Alaska and Wyoming also had shall issue permits available before they adopted constitutional carry.

So which States got to constitutional carry without an incrementalism?

Charles
 

Thundar

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Incrementalism has worked very well in several States of which I'm aware. It certainly worked well for our opponents for many years and is their current favored strategy as well. Legislators (and the public) are far more willing to accept smallish changes rather than large changes...in either direction.

As an example of incrementalism Twenty-five years ago almost nobody could legally carry a gun for self defense in Utah. We had discriminatory permits and most of those had tight restrictions on them like time of day to go make deposits at the bank.

Today, for anyone with a permit, from anywhere in the nation, there is almost no place (other than federal off limits locations) in Utah that you are likely to go where it is not legal to take your gun including most government buildings/meetings, schools, college campuses, bars, and even private businesses that post "no gun" signs. School districts, public colleges, and most government agencies are prohibited from anti-gun policies.

Last year both houses of our legislature passed constitutional carry. Our gov vetoed it. The bill will run again this year.

Along the way we've removed the requirement to have a permit to carry in your car. We passed parking lot preemption for employees that doesn't require a permit. There is a bill this year to remove what is probably a 50 year old law against having a gun on a train or bus without a permit.

Which States have gone directly to constitutional carry without some incremental steps in between?

I know that Arizona had a shall issue permit available to residents only (along with permit free OC) for a long time before they got full constitutional concealed carry. If I'm not mistaken, along the way they moved to issuing permits to non-residents and have chipped away a bit at off limits locations.

I don't know the details but Wiki claims that Alaska and Wyoming also had shall issue permits available before they adopted constitutional carry.

So which States got to constitutional carry without an incrementalism?

Charles

Vermont Alaska, Wyoming, and god willing, soon Texas. Montana may actually demonstrate an incrementalist "win". They have Constitutional carry in most of the state except cities. Soon constitutional carry may be in Montana cities too. Problem is constitutional carry was legalized for most of the state almost 25 years ago! Not such a great victory IMHO.

You conflate general trends in gun laws with an intentional incrementalist approach within a specific law.

Example of a win in demanding rights in Virginia: End 1 gun a month, not end 1 gun a month for CHP holders. Law ended liberty for all, not P4P.
 

grylnsmn

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Vermont Alaska, Wyoming, and god willing, soon Texas. Montana may actually demonstrate an incrementalist "win". They have Constitutional carry in most of the state except cities. Soon constitutional carry may be in Montana cities too. Problem is constitutional carry was legalized for most of the state almost 25 years ago! Not such a great victory IMHO.
Of the states that you list, only Vermont did not take an incrementalist approach.

Alaska was "no issue" prior to 1994, when they became "shall issue". It wasn't until 2003 that Alaska went Constitutional Carry.
Wyoming was "may issue" until 2003, when they shifted to "shall issue". It wasn't until 2011 that Wyoming went Constitutional Carry.
Texas was "no issue" until 1995, when they became "shall issue".
Montana was "may issue" until 1991, when they became "shall issue" with Constitutional Carry in rural areas.

Even Arizona (the Constitutional Carry state you neglected to mention) started off as "no issue" until 1994, when they went "shall issue". They didn't get Constitutional Carry until 2010.

Successful politics is done by focusing on the possible, which requires compromise when there isn't the support to get everything that you want. Right now, we simply don't have the support in the General Assembly to pass Constitutional Carry, let alone override the inevitable veto from King Terry.
 

utbagpiper

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Successful politics is done by focusing on the possible, which requires compromise when there isn't the support to get everything that you want. Right now, we simply don't have the support in the General Assembly to pass Constitutional Carry, let alone override the inevitable veto from King Terry.

+1

Politics is the art of the possible.

Get what you can today, come back tomorrow for a little bit more after today's changes have established a new baseline.

In Utah, shall issue permits made it common to have loaded and concealed guns in cars. After a few years of that norm, we were able to successfully push to remove the requirement to have a permit in order to legally have a concealed and/or loaded gun in the car (long guns still have to be unloaded without a permit, but can be concealed without a permit). We were also able to push through "parking lot preemption" that protects most employees from anti-gun employment policies so long as the gun stays in their car, even if parked in the company parking lot. This last one is tough because most democrat legislators hate guns and republican legislators were split between their loyalties to the business community (and dislike of excessive government regulation of business), and their support for RKBA.

Similarly, shall issue permits coupled with strong State preemption was first used to force our division of wildlife services to recognize the legal ability to carry a gun for self-defense while hunting, even if that gun couldn't be used legally for the hunt itself. (Think, carrying a self-defense handgun on the bow hunt or black powder hunt.) Last year this was extended in 76-10-504 (5) to allow the possession of a concealed gun while hunting even without a permit.

Incrementalism doesn't mean that any given bill is explicit in stating what we will do next year at Thundar seems to suggest. It means that we do what we can today, that changes the baseline and from that baseline we can do more tomorrow.

Thundar said:
...constitutional carry was legalized for most of the state almost 25 years ago! Not such a great victory IMHO.

Constitutional carry is a key component of respecting RKBA. But it isn't the end-all, be-all. Possession while hunting, off limits locations, anti-gun employment policies, and other aspects of RKBA are also important.

Charles
 

marshaul

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I'm less interested in rebutting the occasional successes of incrementalism, and more in rebutting the implication that incrementalism is the only valid tactic, and that those who aren't actively pursuing incrementalism are Not Really Advancing the RKBA, or are somehow Doing It Wrong.

Charles, you have a very "my way or the highway" attitude (I'm not sure if you see this, but it's there). One gets the strong impression that you're quite willing to denigrate any sort of advocacy which is not the sort your prefer, or to dismiss entirely those who do not engage in precisely the same manner as yourself.
 

utbagpiper

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I'm less interested in rebutting the occasional successes of incrementalism, and more in rebutting the implication that incrementalism is the only valid tactic, and that those who aren't actively pursuing incrementalism are Not Really Advancing the RKBA, or are somehow Doing It Wrong.

Charles, you have a very "my way or the highway" attitude (I'm not sure if you see this, but it's there). One gets the strong impression that you're quite willing to denigrate any sort of advocacy which is not the sort your prefer, or to dismiss entirely those who do not engage in precisely the same manner as yourself.

I keep asking for evidence of non-incrementalism working. I've yet to see any. Indeed, the very examples Thundar claims are, in fact, sterling examples of success of incrementalism.

I'd be thrilled to find something with a proven record of working better, faster, or with less work.

I'm not interested in untested theories. I'm not interested in armed revolution.

If I have an attitude it is from having wasted far too much time investigating crackpot "gold fringe on the flag in courtrooms" and "your personal car isn't subject to motor vehicle laws" kind of claims only to find out that they simply don't work. At least not unless you are judgment proof with nothing worth taking and don't care about spending days in jail thinking that when you get released it proves you were right.

In other words, rather than jumping into ad homimen attacks of my "attitude", offer up some solid counter examples of what works better.

Or in yet other words, I'll welcome your citations.

Charles
 
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peter nap

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You know Charles, like so many that insist on telling another state how to handle their affairs, I've never seen where Utah is all that impressive. Open carriers here have always had the rights you seem so proud of. Simply put, we can do most of what you brag about without a permit.
 

The Truth

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I keep asking for evidence of non-incrementalism working. I've yet to see any.

Charles

What about the one a mere 3 posts up from yours?

Or the countless others you conveniently ignore?

"non-incrementalism" :lol:

Yep, everything ever happened incrementally.
 

utbagpiper

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What about the one a mere 3 posts up from yours?

The one that erroneously claimed that several States had adopted constitutional carry without any incremental steps preceeding it? Two of us countered those false claims.

Or the countless others you conveniently ignore?

I'll welcome citations to three examples from among these "countless" examples.

Charles
 

utbagpiper

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You know Charles, like so many that insist on telling another state how to handle their affairs,

I've never done any such thing except in the case of expressing displeasure with those who think brandishing should be protected as OC. I think you are letting a personal dislike for me cloud your ability to read and comprehend. I've simply offered examples from my own experience. That does seem to be a bit more persuasive to reasonable men that emphatic assertion.

I've never seen where Utah is all that impressive. Open carriers here have always had the rights you seem so proud of. Simply put, we can do most of what you brag about without a permit.

I'm thrilled to learn that your State law prevents taxpayer funded colleges from discriminating against gun carriers in admissions, conduct, employment, or housing policies. I'd love a citation to that section of your code.

I'm beyond thrilled to learn that your State law prevents local school districts from imposing anti-gun employment policies and that you've found a way to protect your citizens from the federal Gun Free School Zone law generally requires a permit to legally carry a gun at schools. I can only imagine you've got some State law requiring local school districts to grant permission to carry guns on school grounds to any law abiding citizen who asks for it. Please, give me a citation to that law so I can follow suite by encouraging the Utah legislature to pass a similar law here. I'll give you full credit.

I'm happy to hear you have parking lot preemption that protects most employees from anti-gun employment policies so long as the gun stays in their car, even if the car is parked in the employer's parking lot. Again, citation to such law please.

I will freely admit, that Virginia has a better OC law than does Utah as we do not allow an OC'd gun to be carried fully loaded without a permit. I hope to emulate Virginia and many other OC States by removing this restriction in the very near future. I thank such States for setting an example that I can follow here rather than having to convince my legislators to be the first in the nation to take this particular step.

I've never viewed this as some competition between the States or between various pro-RKBA organizations. I believe we can get a lot done if we don't worry about who gets the credit. I also believe it is easier to follow someone else's good example than to blaze a fresh trail. If every State would adopt the good of every State, we'd all be way ahead.

But back to the central thesis of this recent discussion, can you provide solid examples where we've made large leaps in advancing RKBA without taking smaller, incremental steps along the way? If so, I'd love to know about them because I'm not aware of any and incrementalism is a long, slow process. I've seen lots of evidence it works (for both sides of the RKBA issue and at least one side of other major social issues). But it is long, slow, and hard work. So I fully understand why you and others (and even I) would like to do something different. I'm just looking for evidence that something different actually works.

Thanks

Charles
 
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peter nap

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But back to the central thesis of this recent discussion, can you provide solid examples where we've made large leaps in advancing RKBA without taking smaller, incremental steps along the way? If so, I'd love to know about them because I'm not aware of any and incrementalism is a long, slow process. I've seen lots of evidence it works (for both sides of the RKBA issue and at least one side of other major social issues). But it is long, slow, and hard work. So I fully understand why you and others (and even I) would like to do something different. I'm just looking for evidence that something different actually works.

Thanks

Charles

Why yes Charles, I'll be happy to.

Since you're on an OC board and since OC is the only constitutional carry we have, there were no incremental steps at all. With a brief exception when we were under the control of the Yankees after the war of Northern Aggression, OC has always been legal with no steps at all. There were a few things like preemption which didn't change the law, it simply codified the Dillon Rule which was already law. OC'ers could always carry in restaurants, etc. Now granted, you CHiPpers in Youtaa can carry on school,etc...but by permission slip only.

I don't consider permission much of a stride forward. Maybe you do but there are boards dedicated to being James Bond. They are not Called Open Carry anything. Perhaps you should visit there to get your ideas.
 

utbagpiper

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Since you're on an OC board and since OC is the only constitutional carry we have, there were no incremental steps at all. With a brief exception when we were under the control of the Yankees after the war of Northern Aggression, OC has always been legal with no steps at all. There were a few things like preemption which didn't change the law, it simply codified the Dillon Rule which was already law. OC'ers could always carry in restaurants, etc. Now granted, you CHiPpers in Youtaa can carry on school,etc...but by permission slip only.

Peter,

Might I kindly ask you not to use insulting spellings for my home State? I certainly don't insult the fine State of Virginia nor her residents. And I don't think proper Southern manners nor even Heinlein's "an armed society is a polite society" would include you doing that to me or my State either. It is clear you've taken a dislike to me which is your right. But one's civility is really only tested when dealing with someone disagreeable. After all, even Yanks can be nice to those who agree with them. Your conduct is beneath anyone fit to be called a Southerner.

You've given one, very weak example. Got any others that are strong enough to use as guidance on how to repeat?

And why is this a weak example? Because what you're telling me is that Virginia never really took any action at all on permit-free open carry, except to reverse carbetbagger laws to their pre-existing state as soon as you were able. It is most laudable that other than the Reconstruction period, you've never lost the right to OC firearms. But because you never lost it--save that brief and unpleasant period of Reconstruction--that you have it currently is not really an example of making a major gain without taking incremental steps.

What major RKBA gains have you taken in Virginia (or anywhere else in the nation) without incremental steps?

How do we take the OC experience in Virginia and translate that into a win in other areas or other aspects of RKBA? I'd really love to know. I hope it doesn't involve a Civil War.

And you neglected to provide citations for your parking lot preemption (has nothing to do with permits in Utah) or what you've done to facilitate legal carry in schools without permits despite the federal GFSZ law. You've made a brash claim. Do you have the honor of a southerner to either back it up with cites or to admit your error? Or will you proceed as we might expect some Bostonian or New Yorker to do?

Charles
 

peter nap

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Peter,

Might I kindly ask you not to use insulting spellings for my home State? I certainly don't insult the fine State of Virginia nor her residents. And I don't think proper Southern manners nor even Heinlein's "an armed society is a polite society" would include you doing that to me or my State either. It is clear you've taken a dislike to me which is your right. But one's civility is really only tested when dealing with someone disagreeable. After all, even Yanks can be nice to those who agree with them. Your conduct is beneath anyone fit to be called a Southerner.

You've given one, very weak example. Got any others that are strong enough to use as guidance on how to repeat?

And why is this a weak example? Because what you're telling me is that Virginia never really took any action at all on permit-free open carry, except to reverse carbetbagger laws to their pre-existing state as soon as you were able. It is most laudable that other than the Reconstruction period, you've never lost the right to OC firearms. But because you never lost it--save that brief and unpleasant period of Reconstruction--that you have it currently is not really an example of making a major gain without taking incremental steps.

What major RKBA gains have you taken in Virginia (or anywhere else in the nation) without incremental steps?

How do we take the OC experience in Virginia and translate that into a win in other areas or other aspects of RKBA? I'd really love to know. I hope it doesn't involve a Civil War.

And you neglected to provide citations for your parking lot preemption (has nothing to do with permits in Utah) or what you've done to facilitate legal carry in schools without permits despite the federal GFSZ law. You've made a brash claim. Do you have the honor of a southerner to either back it up with cites or to admit your error? Or will you proceed as we might expect some Bostonian or New Yorker to do?

Charles

Well Charles, you can ask anything you want. Don't expect much cooperation though. I can't think of a single good thing about your state except it's a long way away.
I call them like I see them. In my opinion I gave an overpowering example and parking lot permission Etc is pretty Micky Mouse....but if you think it's big doings, by all means beat your chest over it.:lol: Yep...well ho ho ho...we can carry with a permit, in a parking lot and at school and we've made strides that'll save the world.

What by the way, would you know about honor or being a Southerner?

Now lets see...other areas. I carry a gun, without a permit, nearly anywhere I please. Can't think of a single other thing I can translate it too.

Now Charles, take your GoUtah mediocre steps forward and sulk or write poison pen letters or whatever it is you do when you're not meddling in other states affairs.
 
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utbagpiper

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Well Charles, you can ask anything you want. Don't expect much cooperation though. I can't think of a single good thing about your state except it's a long way away.

Well then you'll be happier never visiting, I'm sure.

In my opinion I gave an overpowering example

Then please do expound on it and tell us how we would translate that 19th century win into modern gains? I'm very anxious to learn what you know about successfully expanding statutory recognition of our RKBA.

and parking lot permission Etc is pretty Micky Mouse....but if you think it's big doings, by all means beat your chest over it.:lol: Yep...well ho ho ho...we can carry with a permit, in a parking lot

Your biases are impairing your reading. Parking Lot preemption has nothing to do with permits. Anyone who can legally own a gun can keep that gun in his car, in the company parking lot, without fear of negative employment action.

It is the gun owner version of civil rights ending Jim Crow discrimination against blacks, in small degree. Most larger employers these days have no-gun policies that extend to their parking lots. Parking lot preemption protects the ability of employees to maintain an effective defense while commuting to and from work.


and at school

Surely you can legally carry at a school. Can't you?

And doesn't your State protect your ability to carry at a government run college as a student or employee?

What by the way, would you know about honor or being a Southerner?

Lived in Virginia for a while. It is one of my favorite States to visit, and would be near the top of my list if I ever had to leave to Utah. With the exception of peter nap, virtually every interaction I've ever had with a Virginian has been polite and pleasant even when were not in agreement on some topic. Are you a native Southerner? Or some carpet bagging darned Yankee who moved down? You act much more lack the latter than the former. In what part of the Commonwealth do you live?

Now lets see...other areas. I carry a gun, without a permit, nearly anywhere I please. Can't think of a single other thing I can translate it too.

So what steps do you want your legislature to take? Sounds like you've got everything you could want. You just playing defense at this point to hold the ground you've got?

Now Charles, take your GoUtah mediocre steps forward and sulk or write poison pen letters or whatever it is you do when you're not meddling in other states affairs.

At this point I'm not meddling nearly so much as hoping you might deign to bestow upon your wisdom and experience on how to do things better. Please do instruct me in how to get my legislature to respect and protect my ability to carry a gun as well as your legislature has your ability.

Thank you

Charles
 

FBrinson

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Well Charles, you can ask anything you want. Don't expect much cooperation though. I can't think of a single good thing about your state except it's a long way away.
I call them like I see them. In my opinion I gave an overpowering example and parking lot permission Etc is pretty Micky Mouse....but if you think it's big doings, by all means beat your chest over it.:lol: Yep...well ho ho ho...we can carry with a permit, in a parking lot and at school and we've made strides that'll save the world.

What by the way, would you know about honor or being a Southerner?

Now lets see...other areas. I carry a gun, without a permit, nearly anywhere I please. Can't think of a single other thing I can translate it too.

Now Charles, take your GoUtah mediocre steps forward and sulk or write poison pen letters or whatever it is you do when you're not meddling in other states affairs.

Now don't go making him type more words. The internet is going to run out of space for his text book sized replies.
 

peter nap

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Charles I'm not going to get sucked into another of your long winded chest beating sessions but yes I am born and raised Virginia and have no desire to visit yootaa. If I recall the most notable event in your heritage was murdering a wagon train of defenseless men, women and children who were passing through. If I need more exposure it's about time for your missionaries to ignore no trespassing signs so Zeus can have some exercise.

If you care to come back to Virginia, I'm certain David McBeth would be happy to share his room with you and in fact, you both have a great deal in common.


Now I have important things to attend to but rest assured that you will be the guest joke at the monthly get together of real 2A activists.

Don

PS..my wife asked me why people from other states get on here to tell us how to handle our affairs. After some thought I told her it was probably because the members in their forums were ashamed and had shunned them.
 
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