• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

The great arming is underway, and that’s a very good thing for our nation . . .

utbagpiper

Banned
Joined
Jul 5, 2006
Messages
4,061
Location
Utah
The question not being asked by most of us is: By what legitimate authority? How does anyone legitimately gain authority to control the lives and choices of other people against their will?

Legitimate authority comes from exercise of my rights against intrusion from others. If someone's choice is to harm me, I have every legitimate right and power to prevent him from doing so. I do that by exercising authority over his life and choices.

Some forms of harm violate natural rights that we all recognize: My right to life, my health, my right to own and control my property. Theft, assault, rape, and murder all clearly violate my rights and I have legitimate right to impose on those who would choose to so assault me.

Some forms of harm have less to do with natural rights, but are every bit as damaging. I don't care how much someone wants to drive on the left side of the road. Our society having determined that we will drive on the right side of the road, that is what we are going to enforce for the safety of everyone and the ability to use public roads.

I doubt there is much disagreement thus far. But from here we can move quickly into areas where there is disagreement about what are real rights vs what are not rights. And I find the closer people live next to each other, the more one's neighbor's conduct affects him. On 1,000+ acre farms/ranches, there isn't a lot your neighbor can do to affect you. But when one lives in a high rise apartment sharing 2 walls, a floor, and a ceiling with neighbors? I once helped someone move out of an apartment that had the rule that in-apartment clothes washers and dryers could not be used between 10 pm and 2 am. They were too prone to making a lot of noise (including when a washer went out of balance during a spin cycle) and disturbing others' night sleep.

This is why cities naturally breed liberals and why rural areas tend to be far more conservative or even libertarian.

There are also issues when men of good conscience honestly disagree. Is a man of a different race equal and entitled to all the same rights? What about a woman? What about a baby who has not yet been born? Those first two question our society has answered well. The last question is still very much under debate.

Just remember, that even among gun owners one doesn't have to be a libertarian or even a conservative. One can be very supportive of RKBA while still favoring a social contract type of construct in which socialized medicine, cradle-to-grave welfare, highly restrictive environmental laws, and other big government controls are common. It is, of course, natural for pro-RKBA types to favor limited government. The key reason for the 2nd amendment was to limit government power in the extreme condition. But we have many potential allies who want RKBA for self-defense from common thugs, but who also favor big government in many areas. Their support, especially in keeping gun-grabbing Democrat politicians from pushing attacks on our RKBA, is useful. We ought not alienate them, even if we disagree about everything except RKBA.
 

countryclubjoe

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2013
Messages
2,505
Location
nj
So... you are advocating that we cease being "law abiding citizens?"

No, I am advocating that you accept freedom and liberty and by that advocating, you may need to surrender all privileges and fight for your rights..

As I mentioned, most folks accept privileges simply because privileges are given to them and they accept said privileges as opposed to FIGHTING for their rights...

Mr.Canby, do you prefer Government issued privileges or do you want to be free and fight for your stolen RIGHTS?.

Does fighting for ones rights, make one less of a law abiding citizen? ...

Please attempt to think like a liberty minded person and not like a slave to the system..

I await your unbiased reply and I respect your comments thereof.

Regards
CCJ
 

utbagpiper

Banned
Joined
Jul 5, 2006
Messages
4,061
Location
Utah
No, I am advocating that you accept freedom and liberty and by that advocating, you may need to surrender all privileges and fight for your rights..

To truly advocate requires providing some path to success. One does not advocate to reduce gravity, for example. In that case, one is merely tilting at windmills.

When do you intend to provide a path to success in "fighting for our rights" without ending up in jail or prison, or having property confiscated? Civil disobedience may have its uses, but it is not law abiding. I contend that an armed man had better be very, very careful before engaging in even the most peaceful civil disobedience.

You've not yet advocated for anything, but have merely encouraged forum members to place themselves at legal risk.

I await your reply with actionable information on how you have successfully thrown off the chains of privilege and exchanged them for the freedom of your rights. Until then, sadly, posts such as this must be regarded as merely an agent provocateur making sport of encouraging others to get into legal trouble needlessly.
 

JamesCanby

Activist Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2010
Messages
1,480
Location
Alexandria, VA at www.NoVA-MDSelfDefense.com
To truly advocate requires providing some path to success. One does not advocate to reduce gravity, for example. In that case, one is merely tilting at windmills.

When do you intend to provide a path to success in "fighting for our rights" without ending up in jail or prison, or having property confiscated? Civil disobedience may have its uses, but it is not law abiding. I contend that an armed man had better be very, very careful before engaging in even the most peaceful civil disobedience.

You've not yet advocated for anything, but have merely encouraged forum members to place themselves at legal risk.

I await your reply with actionable information on how you have successfully thrown off the chains of privilege and exchanged them for the freedom of your rights. Until then, sadly, posts such as this must be regarded as merely an agent provocateur making sport of encouraging others to get into legal trouble needlessly.

No, I am advocating that you accept freedom and liberty and by that advocating, you may need to surrender all privileges and fight for your rights..

As I mentioned, most folks accept privileges simply because privileges are given to them and they accept said privileges as opposed to FIGHTING for their rights...

Mr.Canby, do you prefer Government issued privileges or do you want to be free and fight for your stolen RIGHTS?.

Does fighting for ones rights, make one less of a law abiding citizen? ...

Please attempt to think like a liberty minded person and not like a slave to the system..

I await your unbiased reply and I respect your comments thereof.

Regards
CCJ

See the quote from our learned friend from Utah above your previous response. He said it before I had the chance to reply and most likely said it more clearly and effectively than I could have.

Will you ever be able to reply without categorizing the posters inaccurately? I am not a "slave to the system," I am a "liberty-minded person" who understands that we live in a society of laws. If we do not like some of the laws, we work within the system as, yes, law-abiding citizens who work through the legal structures to effect change. You continue to advocate disregarding laws that are, in your opinion, unconstitutional but can provide no proof or examples of how you have successfully done so or how you have triumphed over the "petty tyrants" that you constantly castigate. Talk is cheap, and bandwidth is relatively free. Lead by public, verifiable and documented example and your postings might carry more educational weight. As it is now, you should be regarded as just another keyboard commando whose efforts pale in comparison to those who have actually worked within the system to effect those changes. Prove me wrong. Document those successes so that we may all learn.
 

wabbit

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2011
Messages
153
Location
briar patch, NM
See the quote from our learned friend from Utah above your previous response. He said it before I had the chance to reply and most likely said it more clearly and effectively than I could have.

Will you ever be able to reply without categorizing the posters inaccurately? I am not a "slave to the system," I am a "liberty-minded person" who understands that we live in a society of laws. If we do not like some of the laws, we work within the system as, yes, law-abiding citizens who work through the legal structures to effect change. You continue to advocate disregarding laws that are, in your opinion, unconstitutional but can provide no proof or examples of how you have successfully done so or how you have triumphed over the "petty tyrants" that you constantly castigate. Talk is cheap, and bandwidth is relatively free. Lead by public, verifiable and documented example and your postings might carry more educational weight. As it is now, you should be regarded as just another keyboard commando whose efforts pale in comparison to those who have actually worked within the system to effect those changes. Prove me wrong. Document those successes so that we may all learn.

Of course, that is an educated stance, point and scream, "ya, what he said!"

Society (A society is a group of people involved in persistent social interaction, or a large social group sharing the same geographical or social territory, typically subject to the same political authority and dominant cultural expectations) equals the religious community of this country who has passed the LAWS that you stand up and state you are "NOT" a slave to.

Seems by your own admission you apparently do not follow under the auspices of "LAW BIDING" then?

Hold on a sec...(checking my pulse, yes still beating strong) guess I missed where I, as part of this society, died and left you the "petty tyrant" in charge of having TO PROVE or DEMAND a thing from anybody! I just checked the forum's bylaws, there is not a thing which levies that unique blessing on your silly behind allowing you to prove or demand anything from anybody. where on God's green earth did you come to the conclusion to believe you have the right in our society to demand anything to prove anything to you the petty tyrant.

Goodness sake James, this is nothing more than a conversation over the internet and your words, mine, UT's commentary, etc., just like the words of the founding father's and those who felt they were important who came after do not mean a darn thing in the overall scheme of things. Try to remember Lincoln's 260 word Gettysburg address didn't gain impetus until 13 after they were spoken.

James, please put your silly ego in your pocket and move the F on, because as if you hadn't noticed only you are getting excited as the rest of us are tired of your petty keyboard commando ego against everything some of us say.
 

JamesCanby

Activist Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2010
Messages
1,480
Location
Alexandria, VA at www.NoVA-MDSelfDefense.com
(snip....)

James, please put your silly ego in your pocket and move the F on, because as if you hadn't noticed only you are getting excited as the rest of us are tired of your petty keyboard commando ego against everything some of us say.

Wow. A newbie poster who refuses to indicate where he is located, not even his or her state, with a grand total of 76 posts to date, has now taken on the mantle of speaking for everyone else on the site.
 

utbagpiper

Banned
Joined
Jul 5, 2006
Messages
4,061
Location
Utah
Hold on a sec...(checking my pulse, yes still beating strong) guess I missed where I, as part of this society, died and left you the "petty tyrant" in charge of having TO PROVE or DEMAND a thing from anybody! I just checked the forum's bylaws, there is not a thing which levies that unique blessing on your silly behind allowing you to prove or demand anything from anybody. where on God's green earth did you come to the conclusion to believe you have the right in our society to demand anything to prove anything to you the petty tyrant.

Turns out I've still got a pulse too. And I get to call "crap" when keyboard commandos claim to be doing things they refuse to back up with any evidence. I also get to call horse hockies when those commandos encourage others to engage in potentially life altering illegal conduct, or when they castigate people for not blindly jumping on their Quixotic quests.

This forum does get nationwide readership. A fair number of newbies come here looking for information and even wisdom on how to get started with an effective armed defense. Agent Provocateurs, trolls, and unverified keyboard commandos doling out potentially legally dangerous information must be countered lest the innocent but naïve get themselves in a heap of legal trouble before they even figure out what legal really is.

James, please put your silly ego in your pocket and move the F on, because as if you hadn't noticed only you are getting excited as the rest of us are tired of your petty keyboard commando ego against everything some of us say.

The only ego I see here, wabbit, is yours. And the use of "F" as veiled reference to the offensive vocabulary word of choice of the small minded and semi-literate doesn't do anything to help your credibility.

If you want to follow a path of violating existing gun laws, have a ball. But forum rules prohibit encouraging anyone from doing so. I believe that attacking those who choose to obey laws--while working successfully to change and improve them incrementally--is as much a violation of the spirit of that rule as is openly encouraging violation of laws.

Charles
 

CJ4wd

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 22, 2017
Messages
353
Location
Planet Earth
As an "inmate" of the last state to allow ANY form of carry, I haven't tried for CC yet as the costs and limitations are still too high. The NON-refundable application fee Illinois charges is too high @ $150, the classes (16 hours) are, at best, $125 +, the delays CAN be interminable, esp. if some department objects. And the legitimate "no guns" signs in Illinois DO have the "force of law". At IllinoisCarry.com, some people have been "under board review" because of an objection for over a year. Granted, some states (like Hawaii) may be stricter about issuing permits, but they have had the process longer than Illinois.

OC is preferable to me as well, due to some physical limitations, although I can see the "appropriateness" of CC at certain times. I'm just not comfortable with it, physically OR financially.
 

MamaLiberty

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 8, 2006
Messages
894
Location
Newcastle, Wyoming, USA
we might as well use the data to our advantage.

I don't have any argument with any of that. My beef is when almost every USE of the data seems to be used to sneer at those who don't have or want "permits," and too many people who equate us more or less automatically with the lawless. As if having the "permit" is the only way to "prove" one is a responsible person. Just chaps my hide, that's all.
 

MamaLiberty

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 8, 2006
Messages
894
Location
Newcastle, Wyoming, USA
One can be very supportive of RKBA while still favoring a social contract type of construct in which socialized medicine, cradle-to-grave welfare, highly restrictive environmental laws, and other big government controls are common.

The only way to have socialized anything is for some people to steal from and control other people. That is called theft and aggression, defense against such being one of the very reasons we carry guns... Those who wish to establish some kind of "social contract" with others on a voluntary basis should have no problem doing so. To force others to participate against their will is the essence of aggression. Vast difference. Anyone who wants to rob and control others - or "elect" others to do it for them - can be as gung ho about RKBA as they wish, but I will consider them to be hypocrites and aggressors... enemies always.
 

MamaLiberty

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 8, 2006
Messages
894
Location
Newcastle, Wyoming, USA
doling out potentially legally dangerous information

Yes indeed... all those innocent suckers who followed the "illegal" advice and joined in the "illegal" actions of Thomas Jefferson, Samuel Adams, Benjamin Franklin... you know, all those traitors and criminals who pledged their lives, fortunes and sacred honor to achieve liberty once upon a time. Why in the world didn't they work "with the system" and petition old Kind George, etc.

Oh, they did. Didn't do them a damned bit of good. And we're long past that point now again.

The "law abiding" understand mala en se - those things that are wrong, evil in and of themselves. Murder, assault, theft, fraud, rape.. Oh wait! Those in "authority" have no problem doing any and all of those things to us peons... "qualified immunity" and all that, remember? And they pass endless "laws" prohibiting everything they can think of as well. What is not mandatory is forbidden. We're getting mighty close.

What free men and women fight against is that privileged "immunity" to mala en se by the non-voluntary government and profligate expansion of mala prohibita, those things that our would be masters have decided they have some authority to forbid to US, and to punish us for. Vast difference. And we won't reclaim our liberty as long as that bogus "authority" is not challenged and rejected.
 

utbagpiper

Banned
Joined
Jul 5, 2006
Messages
4,061
Location
Utah
I don't have any argument with any of that. My beef is when almost every USE of the data seems to be used to sneer at those who don't have or want "permits," and too many people who equate us more or less automatically with the lawless. As if having the "permit" is the only way to "prove" one is a responsible person. Just chaps my hide, that's all.

I think someone is being overly sensitive. I doubt you can find 3 examples in the last 6 months on this site of anyone sneering at those who don't want or don't have permits.

In fact, quite the opposite is true. I can pull up 3 quotes from CCJ in the last 3 weeks in which he insults and needles anyone who doesn't engage in violations of statute by carrying or driving without the currently required licenses/permits.
 

utbagpiper

Banned
Joined
Jul 5, 2006
Messages
4,061
Location
Utah
The only way to have socialized anything is for some people to steal from and control other people. That is called theft and aggression, defense against such being one of the very reasons we carry guns... Those who wish to establish some kind of "social contract" with others on a voluntary basis should have no problem doing so. To force others to participate against their will is the essence of aggression. Vast difference. Anyone who wants to rob and control others - or "elect" others to do it for them - can be as gung ho about RKBA as they wish, but I will consider them to be hypocrites and aggressors... enemies always.

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." -- often incorrectly attributed to Aristotle, but truth stands on its own regardless of who spoke it.

I am not an anarchist, nor a hardcore libertarian. I believe every man owes some support to the nation in which in he lives. I believe that some behavior is destructive to society and has to be controlled. There is no wall keeping anyone in this nation. But for those who voluntarily stay, there are some rules and some obligations that go along with the rights.

And there will be times when we don't get our way, just as there are times our neighbors don't get their way. We still obey the law and follow the rules.

If you want to consider me a hypocrite and an aggressor and your enemy always, have a ball. But if you do, I see that as a very small mind.
 
Last edited:

utbagpiper

Banned
Joined
Jul 5, 2006
Messages
4,061
Location
Utah
Yes indeed... all those innocent suckers who followed the "illegal" advice and joined in the "illegal" actions of Thomas Jefferson, Samuel Adams, Benjamin Franklin... you know, all those traitors and criminals who pledged their lives, fortunes and sacred honor to achieve liberty once upon a time. Why in the world didn't they work "with the system" and petition old Kind George, etc.

Oh, they did. Didn't do them a damned bit of good. And we're long past that point now again.

Are you encouraging armed rebellion? If yes, have the guts to say it straight up and to then act on it. If not, drop the theatrics, hysteria, and hyperbole.

The "law abiding" understand mala en se - those things that are wrong, evil in and of themselves. Murder, assault, theft, fraud, rape.. Oh wait! Those in "authority" have no problem doing any and all of those things to us peons... "qualified immunity" and all that, remember? And they pass endless "laws" prohibiting everything they can think of as well. What is not mandatory is forbidden. We're getting mighty close.

What free men and women fight against is that privileged "immunity" to mala en se by the non-voluntary government and profligate expansion of mala prohibita, those things that our would be masters have decided they have some authority to forbid to US, and to punish us for. Vast difference. And we won't reclaim our liberty as long as that bogus "authority" is not challenged and rejected.

Utter and complete hogwash to the bolded portion (which emphasis I added for clarity).

We've actually made tremendous progress in many regards. In the last 20 years, we've gained tremendous ground on the practical ability to carry a gun for self-defense and even on judicial recognition of RKBA.

In the last 60 years women and racial minorities have made tremendous progress. You think a woman, much less a black woman really thought life was way better in 1800 or 1900 USA than it is today?

Almost a decade ago our site owner/admin John Pierce posted a note making very clear that revolution, armed rebellion, and similar crap wasn't welcome here, that he was wasting way too much time dealing with tinfoil hat crap at a time when we were making tremendous progress through the completely legitimate political process. Since that post was made, we've made additional tremendous progress including adding 13 States to the permit-free carry list, getting a couple of crucial SCOTUS rulings on RKBA, and seeing millions of additional voters added to our gun owning, gun carrying ranks.

If you don't personally like the political process that is your business.

But don't make bull crap claims about it not working when we've got two solid decades of screaming success.

You want to take another course? You think anyone who doesn't is a coward or worse? Next time an Ammon Bundy case arises get your butt down there to help out. A blind, ill, 53 year old just drew a 68 year sentence in federal prison (no probation) for not hurting anyone. Next time, go join him if you think that is the way to effect change.

Me? I've got a productive, decent life to live while actually making a positive difference in the laws of the State of Utah and in overall social attitudes toward RKBA.

You think my chosen course is beneath you? Your business. But either shut your trap or put your life and liberty on the line. Keyboard commandos denigrating demonstrating success while lacking the personal courage to go join the brave but foolish in the armed standoffs is beyond offensive.
 

utbagpiper

Banned
Joined
Jul 5, 2006
Messages
4,061
Location
Utah
Not by Aristotle.

Thank you. I've updated my post to reflect a correction.

Repeated here: Obvious truth stands on its own without any appeal to the authority of the speaker.

The erroneous author was listed only to avoid any hint I was claiming credit for the pithy truth.
 
Last edited:

countryclubjoe

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2013
Messages
2,505
Location
nj
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." -- Aristotle

I am not an anarchist, nor a hardcore libertarian. I believe every man owes some support to the nation in which in he lives. I believe that some behavior is destructive to society and has to be controlled. There is no wall keeping anyone in this nation. But for those who voluntarily stay, there are some rules and some obligations that go along with the rights.

And there will be times when we don't get our way, just as there are times our neighbors don't get their way. We still obey the law and follow the rules.

If you want to consider me a hypocrite and an aggressor and your enemy always, have a ball. But if you do, I see that as a very small mind.

Interesting, that when folks disagree with you ideologies, they suddenly have a very small mind.

" No government can be maintained without the principle of fear as well as of duty. Good man will obey the last, but bad man the former only" Jefferson

"People shouldn't be afraid of their government. Governments should be afraid of their people" Alan Moore

Government controls its citizenry thru fear and or ignorance.. Surely you feel like you're a good law-abiding citizen ( a government made-up moniker),
What inspires you to be such a good law-abiding citizen, is it fear or is it ignorance?.

" A free people claim their rights, as derived from the laws of nature, and not as the gift of their magistrates" Thomas Jefferson

My .02
CCJ
 

utbagpiper

Banned
Joined
Jul 5, 2006
Messages
4,061
Location
Utah
Interesting, that when folks disagree with you ideologies, they suddenly have a very small mind.

STOP LYING. Or, gain some reading comprehension. Whichever may be required.

The small mind is in declaring one a hypocrite, tyrant, and enemy forever for disagreeing with "mamma".
 

MamaLiberty

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 8, 2006
Messages
894
Location
Newcastle, Wyoming, USA
I believe every man owes some support to the nation in which in he lives. I believe that some behavior is destructive to society and has to be controlled.

And so what you 'believe" just has to be true for everyone. You don't get to speak for me, however. There is no point in arguing this here, but I suggest you get some further education by reading such things as Lysander Spooner. He's much more eloquent than I am.

No, I don't advocate or encourage armed rebellion. I wish with all my heart it would never come to that, but as in 1776, I fear very much that it will. I'm 71 years old, and have very little time left on earth, but I do what I can to remind people of the liberty they have tossed away, and prepare the best I can for the coming storm.
 
Top