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"Perceived Carry Decoys" No, Really. You've got to see this stuff.
- Thread starter skidmark
- Start date
Well yes, you being someone not likely to carry a fake.
I was just attempting to stretch my mind into that of someone who might actually think a fake is a good thing.
In that case, I would then need to venture a guess they'd be lacking intelligence to the point where they'd blurt out how it was fake. Because you know, embarrassment and their machismo having been wounded would likely have turned them back into their sheeple self...
Plus infinity times infinity!
We have discussed just who we are carrying to defend against imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury. Most of us agree that if we are not fully aware of all the circumstances of an incident involving someone outside our "circle/tribe" we are probably better off being a good witness.
Folks who do not carry occassionally tell me they are not worried because I do carry and will be around to protect them. The expression on their face when I explain why I cannot be their personal body guard is truely prescious.
stay safe.
utbagpiper
Banned
So I expect to catch all kinds of grief over this, but, with asbestos suit fully zipped....
I see some possible upside uses for these things, though not the ones the seller intended. Bear with me just a moment.
With the exception of the law in Vegas against carrying fake guns mentioned here, how many locations actually have laws against carrying a fake gun? I wonder if these might not be useful for some of the public education provided by OC but in locations where carrying (open or otherwise) a real gun would violate various statutes.
Or, put another way, how would the authorities respond if these became so common in a given area where actual OC was illegal (but carrying a fake gun was not perfectly legal) that they simply couldn't stop and check every person carrying one? Twenty-plus years ago when public key cryptography first became available, some folks argued that if every email everyone sent was encrypted, no matter how mundane, those inclined to eavesdrop on emails would be overwhelmed even if they did have the ability to decrypt some number of emails. More importantly, if encryption were as common for email as envelopes are for letters, it would be very difficult for snoopes to determine which emails warranted their attention vs which ones didn't.
Obviously, widespread encryption of email hasn't caught on. And I don't expect these fake guns will either.
But one final angle to consider. What with the TSA generally requiring locks they can open on any checked luggage, there are certain benefits to having a firearm in your checked bagged. TSA searches the bag and you get to put areal lock on it before the baggage handles take possession. I've seen some discussion among photographers and others who need to check bags with expensive equipment wondering whether it would make sense to include a gun in those bags so as to be able to use a real lock. Some have considered using a flare gun or starter's pistol for travel to those locations where a real gun might be problematic. A fake gun, that happened to look real on an X-ray and look real at first glance, might be even better in some situations.
As far as actually OCing one of these things? I thought running around with fake guns on your hip was something most folks outgrew by about age 7 when the luster wore off their last set of cap pistols.
Charles
I see some possible upside uses for these things, though not the ones the seller intended. Bear with me just a moment.
With the exception of the law in Vegas against carrying fake guns mentioned here, how many locations actually have laws against carrying a fake gun? I wonder if these might not be useful for some of the public education provided by OC but in locations where carrying (open or otherwise) a real gun would violate various statutes.
Or, put another way, how would the authorities respond if these became so common in a given area where actual OC was illegal (but carrying a fake gun was not perfectly legal) that they simply couldn't stop and check every person carrying one? Twenty-plus years ago when public key cryptography first became available, some folks argued that if every email everyone sent was encrypted, no matter how mundane, those inclined to eavesdrop on emails would be overwhelmed even if they did have the ability to decrypt some number of emails. More importantly, if encryption were as common for email as envelopes are for letters, it would be very difficult for snoopes to determine which emails warranted their attention vs which ones didn't.
Obviously, widespread encryption of email hasn't caught on. And I don't expect these fake guns will either.
But one final angle to consider. What with the TSA generally requiring locks they can open on any checked luggage, there are certain benefits to having a firearm in your checked bagged. TSA searches the bag and you get to put areal lock on it before the baggage handles take possession. I've seen some discussion among photographers and others who need to check bags with expensive equipment wondering whether it would make sense to include a gun in those bags so as to be able to use a real lock. Some have considered using a flare gun or starter's pistol for travel to those locations where a real gun might be problematic. A fake gun, that happened to look real on an X-ray and look real at first glance, might be even better in some situations.
As far as actually OCing one of these things? I thought running around with fake guns on your hip was something most folks outgrew by about age 7 when the luster wore off their last set of cap pistols.
Charles
utbagpiper
Banned
Exactly. I carry to defend me and mine.
And I'm well aware that many of the same folks who might like a private citizen carrying a gun to stick his neck out for them when the SHTF, are the same folks who wouldn't take more than 2 seconds' thought to convict and crucify him if he were to make a mistake in such a situation and somehow shoot the wrong person. I'd need to be somewhere beyond 100% sure of who was the bad guy before even thinking about doing anything more than being a good witness. And so long as me and mine may be in danger, being a witness takes a back seat to escaping safely.
If "society" wants private citizens to get involved beyond that, they need to seriously rethink some of the laws on the books.
Charles
Here's some grief. Carry a fake gun in a municipality where open carry is not legal? Line up the body bags.
Because if you think too many LEOs overreact with deadly force now, just wait. Because if its illegal to carry a real gun open-carry, then it would be inevitable that LEOs in such jurisdictions will assume the worst.
And even if they draw their weapon, and yell "GUN!", some poor fake gun shmuck would reach for it, to pull it out while saying "hey - it's fake - look!"
Bang. Dead.
utbagpiper
Banned
Of course. Someone else has already mentioned the wonderful Darwinian effect these things could have.
OTOH, "if everyone did it....".
Take my post as far more tongue-in-cheek than serious. I'm certainly not going to OC a fake gun, nor suggest anyone I love or even like do so. But if someone else thinks it is a good idea...Well, you just can't fix stupid.
Charles
With respect utbagpiper -
TSA is going to want to see that the firearm in your checked luggage is unloaded. What do you think their response will be when you claim it is just a fake and cannot be removed from the "holster" area because it is one solid piece? Let's just say I'm thinking you are going to start off in a small, isolated room with no video recording taking place.
As for protesting no-OC policy/law with what looks like an openly carried for-real gun? It may take your attorney until the preliminary hearing (happening later next week) to get a judge to agree on bail amount and conditions. (If it looks like a gun - or could be mistaken for a gun - I'm betting the cops are going to take you down and hook you up. They will not worry about it being a fake. That's something the prosecutor can deal with. There have been arrests of people with a bananna stuck in their holster. IMHO empty holsters are a better way to approach the issue. YMMV, of course.
But the bottom line? You are right - most folks outgrew that sort of thing by about age 7. Most folks. I'd hate to think of what would happen to some anti-rights idiot who starts to run their mouth and tries to intimidate anybody by putting their hand on the grip of their fake gun. We all know how peaceful anti-rights folks are - they never threaten violence.
"Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, can you honestly sit there and say this does not, to a reasonable person, look just like a real gun? Especially when it is being sold as looking just like a real gun?" After being aquitted (if it goes that far) the defendant ought to turn around and sue the deceased's estate for emotional trauma and the price of a new set of pants, as well as lost wages and court/attorney costs.
stay safe.
TSA is going to want to see that the firearm in your checked luggage is unloaded. What do you think their response will be when you claim it is just a fake and cannot be removed from the "holster" area because it is one solid piece? Let's just say I'm thinking you are going to start off in a small, isolated room with no video recording taking place.
As for protesting no-OC policy/law with what looks like an openly carried for-real gun? It may take your attorney until the preliminary hearing (happening later next week) to get a judge to agree on bail amount and conditions. (If it looks like a gun - or could be mistaken for a gun - I'm betting the cops are going to take you down and hook you up. They will not worry about it being a fake. That's something the prosecutor can deal with. There have been arrests of people with a bananna stuck in their holster. IMHO empty holsters are a better way to approach the issue. YMMV, of course.
But the bottom line? You are right - most folks outgrew that sort of thing by about age 7. Most folks. I'd hate to think of what would happen to some anti-rights idiot who starts to run their mouth and tries to intimidate anybody by putting their hand on the grip of their fake gun. We all know how peaceful anti-rights folks are - they never threaten violence.
"Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, can you honestly sit there and say this does not, to a reasonable person, look just like a real gun? Especially when it is being sold as looking just like a real gun?" After being aquitted (if it goes that far) the defendant ought to turn around and sue the deceased's estate for emotional trauma and the price of a new set of pants, as well as lost wages and court/attorney costs.
stay safe.
utbagpiper
Banned
This is actually the most "legit" use for these things I can imagine. And if I were to ever use one for such a purpose, I'd start right out by telling the TSA, "This is just a prop gun, but it looks real enough that I didn't want there to be any misunderstanding. Please feel free to examine it to your heart's content." I expect I'd need to do something similar if I checked a flare gun or starter's pistol.
And for the record, I've never had TSA ask me to show them the gun was unloaded. They swab the container, run their chemical check, and then have me lock my luggage up. I've had exactly one ticketing agent ever ask me if the gun was unloaded, but had no interest in inspecting the gun herself. I'm no world traveler, but I've made a habit of declaring and checking firearms at airports in Utah, Virginia, Arizona, and Texas. My biggest hassle was checking a Scottish Baskethilt sword that I packed into a hard sided shotgun case. The agent figured I'd better fill out the orange gun tag since it was a gun case. I simply crossed out "gun" and wrote in "sword" where needed, and then signed, under penalty of perjury, that the "sword was unloaded."
Probably a very legitimate concern.
Would that we would be so fortunate as to have any significant number of gun-grabbers volunteer for Darwinism in such a fashion.
stay safe.
Charles
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Back when I was in the Military Police, I was on duty at a beer fest in Germany. One of my off-duty friends walked up to the patrol car and said "there's a guy brandishing a pistol over there..."
When I approached him, I most definitely had my .45 pointed at him, assuming it was a real pistol based on that report.
After getting him on the ground and doing a full head-to-toe search, and finding said pistol, I discovered it was a starter pistol. Jacked his ass up nonetheless because of the "implied" threat given the circumstances.
Now, I am totally against abuse of police powers, and unlawful arrests. However it doesn't matter if its real, fake or just a starter / prop pistol. Because you can't know in advance that it is.
That's the biggest problem with these fakes.
Of course, you'll note how I didn't say anything about how, upon seeing the suspect, I emptied my entire magazine into the thug". Because duh. Yet I had been prepared to shoot, and would not have stopped first to ask "is that thing you're waving around fake" if he had been waving it around.
So I do empathize with LEOs in many ways with this, and think it would be quite reasonable especially nowadays for LEOs to "assume the worst" with the fakes.
Oh - and everyone down at the booking station made fun of me that day for "taking down the evil starter pistol guy..."
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utbagpiper
Banned
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sudden valley gunner
Regular Member
LOL.....shoot me first holsters?
since9
Campaign Veteran
At lest they got this part right: "If people were getting shot simply for open carry it would have been banned long ago." - January 14 at 11:37 pm.
Spooler41
Regular Member
PDC Value
This product seems to be worth every penny of it's asking price
shown in their web site ad , $0.00. Looks to me like this is a good
way of being killed or injured ,by civilians or LEOs .
....................... Jack
This product seems to be worth every penny of it's asking price
shown in their web site ad , $0.00. Looks to me like this is a good
way of being killed or injured ,by civilians or LEOs .
....................... Jack
since9
Campaign Veteran
If this were true, we OCers would be dropping like flies.
We're not.
Have a nice day.