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Out of state requires photo copy state issued ID to make repair... Law?

Freedom1Man

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Messages
4,462
Location
Greater Eastside Washington
I was told I had to send a copy of a state issued ID along with a AR lower back to the manufacturer in order to have it repaired under warranty.
They claim it is an ATF regulation.

If they know that the firearms they sell are junk they might be getting ready to send a replacement but, then I would thing that they would claim they needed a FFL to transfer that replacement to.

Unless there is some regulation that the ATF allows a warranty replacement to be shipped straight to the customer?

....

After reading that forum post there I will not be doing business with them either.
 

eye95

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Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,524
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
There need be nothing in the US Constitution as it is the State governments issuing most IDs. The IDs that the federal government issues are generally intended to identify individuals within a department of the government, for example, military IDs. Many agencies and private organizations outside those departments will recognize those IDs because they are so reliable as a means of identification. For example, my credit union accepts my military ID when making withdrawals.


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Freedom1Man

Regular Member
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Jan 14, 2012
Messages
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Greater Eastside Washington
There need be nothing in the US Constitution as it is the State governments issuing most IDs. The IDs that the federal government issues are generally intended to identify individuals within a department of the government, for example, military IDs. Many agencies and private organizations outside those departments will recognize those IDs because they are so reliable as a means of identification. For example, my credit union accepts my military ID when making withdrawals.


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-100 failing to read, poor use of the English language, and self contradiction.

I was addressing all constitutions and said state constitutions.

Then you just contradict yourself. You still failed to show any authority to issue ID in the federal constitution and then claim it's okay for the federal government to do it (eg military ID). How did they do it during the war of independence?

You have still failed to show where any government has been granted the power, in any constitution, to create a government issued ID.
 

eye95

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Jan 6, 2010
Messages
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Fairborn, Ohio, USA
What did I fail to read?? Enlighten me.

There is no contradiction. All employers are free to issue ID cards to their employees, so is the federal government as an employer. Duh. No constitutional authority need exist for the federal government to act as an employer and to do the things that other employers do. Again, duh.

-1000. Your turn. Never mind. I pointed out something you overlooked (that States issue IDs to citizens and feds issue IDs to employees) and you had to turn it personal. Go away. I made my point. There is no point in my further engaging someone behaving like an...... There are many other folks here worth talking to.

Oh, and one more attempt at rationality. The US Constitution is a limiting document. If the feds are not granted a power over citizens, they don't have it. State constitutions are not limiting documents. States have authorities by their very existence that need not be embodied in a constitution and don't require their powers be enumerated.
 
Last edited:

OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
12,452
Location
White Oak Plantation
I was told I had to send a copy of a state issued ID along with a AR lower back to the manufacturer in order to have it repaired under warranty.
They claim it is an ATF regulation. Can someone link this regulation for me. I have not heard of it.
I just received a firearm a week ago that I sent to a Colorado repair shop that did not require this.
Law or BS?

Thanks
Why waste time with the in the first place? If the warranty is issued by the retailer/repair shop then I guess you are stuck with them. If it is a manufactures warranty then is there not another repair facilty available? Just asking becaues the warranty issuer was not stated in your OP.
 

MKEgal

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Joined
Jan 8, 2010
Messages
4,383
Location
in front of my computer, WI
That has to be one of the most unprofessional communications I've read from a business.
And he puts his full signature with it, so we know it's really company policy, not just some low-level employee making things up. (No, it's the head of the company making things up.)

It's been my experience that people usually get defensive when told they're wrong, or asked to back up something with facts.
(Around here, not so much, 'cause it's in the rules we all agreed to, but it still happens.)
It's especially likely or strong if they don't have facts to back them up.

Here's their contact page: https://newfrontierarmory.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=page&id=6&zenid=th1vv72386dqlirquuun36f145
And a general email: Sales@NewFrontierArmory.com
phone 702.479.1470

And would ya look at that... they're also on FaceBook: https://www.facebook.com/newfrontierarmory
 

twoskinsonemanns

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 12, 2012
Messages
2,326
Location
WV
If they know that the firearms they sell are junk they might be getting ready to send a replacement but

I've done quite a bit of research and this is what I have learned. IF they wanted to replace it, a NEW serial number has to be issued. They cannot just destroy the old lower and put that serial number on a new lower and send it to me. If they did want to give me a new lower with a new serial number it has to be sent to an FFL in my state unless I went to them and received the new lower face to face, where in I would need to fill out another 4473. Or course they never offered this and I would drive the Nevada to do it even if they did.

There is NO reason they need my ID.
 

twoskinsonemanns

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 12, 2012
Messages
2,326
Location
WV
That has to be one of the most unprofessional communications I've read from a business.
And he puts his full signature with it, so we know it's really company policy, not just some low-level employee making things up. (No, it's the head of the company making things up.)

It's been my experience that people usually get defensive when told they're wrong, or asked to back up something with facts.
(Around here, not so much, 'cause it's in the rules we all agreed to, but it still happens.)
It's especially likely or strong if they don't have facts to back them up.

Here's their contact page: https://newfrontierarmory.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=page&id=6&zenid=th1vv72386dqlirquuun36f145
And a general email: Sales@NewFrontierArmory.com
phone 702.479.1470

And would ya look at that... they're also on FaceBook: https://www.facebook.com/newfrontierarmory

Thanks so much MKEgal. If anyone uses this info to jot them a line to say their policy or customer service is ridiculous thank you so much in advance!
 

Freedom1Man

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Messages
4,462
Location
Greater Eastside Washington
I've done quite a bit of research and this is what I have learned. IF they wanted to replace it, a NEW serial number has to be issued. They cannot just destroy the old lower and put that serial number on a new lower and send it to me. If they did want to give me a new lower with a new serial number it has to be sent to an FFL in my state unless I went to them and received the new lower face to face, where in I would need to fill out another 4473. Or course they never offered this and I would drive the Nevada to do it even if they did.

There is NO reason they need my ID.

http://originalintent.org/edu/chapter44.php

18 USC §921(2)
The term ''interstate or foreign commerce'' includes commerce between any place in a State and any place outside of that State, or within any possession of the United States (not including the Canal Zone) or the District of Columbia, but such term does not include commerce between places within the same State but through any place outside of that State. The term ''State'' includes the District of Columbia, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, and the possessions of the United States (not including the Canal Zone).


I've made the argument before that there is no legal requirement for the average citizen to have to ever fill out a form 4473 when buying new firearms even from dealers.
 

Freedom1Man

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Messages
4,462
Location
Greater Eastside Washington
What did I fail to read?? Enlighten me.

There is no contradiction. All employers are free to issue ID cards to their employees, so is the federal government as an employer. Duh. No constitutional authority need exist for the federal government to act as an employer and to do the things that other employers do. Again, duh.

-1000. Your turn. Never mind. I pointed out something you overlooked (that States issue IDs to citizens and feds issue IDs to employees) and you had to turn it personal. Go away. I made my point. There is no point in my further engaging someone behaving like an...... There are many other folks here worth talking to.

Oh, and one more attempt at rationality. The US Constitution is a limiting document. If the feds are not granted a power over citizens, they don't have it. State constitutions are not limiting documents. States have authorities by their very existence that need not be embodied in a constitution and don't require their powers be enumerated.
The constitutions of the states are limiting documents. If it is not spelled out in the constitution of that state that the state has a power/authority to do something, then the state does not have the power/authority to do it. I am not saying that they follow their constitution just saying how it is supposed to be. That is why you often find the power to create roadways, collect taxes, and a whole host of other activities listed in a state constitution. So if issuing a state/government ID is NOT listed as a power granted to a state then the state has not authority to issue an ID of any sort. The closest to that would be some form of a tax stamp to engage in such activities that you need the state's permission to engage in (commercial driver license or a state CPL). EVEN THEN that could never require the confirmation of an identity. If it's your picture is on the tax card then you've paid the tax that permits you to engage in the listed activity(ies). Even if you don't have a photo on the tax stamp it would be incumbent on the state to PROVE that you did not pay that tax.

Yes all constitutions, in this country, are limiting documents. They limit the power of the government to what is enumerated only. Keep in mind this is true for the federal and state constitutions.

SECTION 194

Poll tax Amount; maximum age for payment; when due and payable; when delinquent; returns of collections to be separate from other collections.

The poll tax mentioned in this article shall be one dollar and fifty cents upon each male inhabitant of the state, over the age of twenty-one years, and under the age of forty-five years, who would not now be exempt by law; but the legislature is authorized to increase the maximum age fixed in this section to not more than sixty years. Such poll tax shall become due and payable on the first day of October in each year, and become delinquent on the first day of the next succeeding February, but no legal process, nor any fee or commission shall be allowed for the collection thereof. The tax collector shall make returns of poll tax collections separate from other collections.

There is an enumerated power. Have you payed the poll tax yet this year?
 

eye95

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,524
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
That you could find an enumerated power that is no longer in force does not support your contention that "all constitutions are limiting documents."

The federal constitution is limiting because it is a charter authored by the States (read nations) that gave some of their powers, a limited and enumerated number of them, to the federal government. No such arrangement exists between the individual States and any sovereign political entities located within them. Therefore those non-existent sovereign entities couldn't have given a limited set of powers to the State. Instead, the State has all the assumed powers of a nation except those ceded to the federal government.

Anyway, your insistence on unreality bores me. I merely tried to point out a detail you overlooked. You had to get snarky and personal about it. And then you stubbornly tried to stick to some silly little error to save face. Again, this bores me. I spend time discussing with folks who don't turn it personal and the get stubbornly irrational. Have fun.


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<o>
 

twoskinsonemanns

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 12, 2012
Messages
2,326
Location
WV
http://originalintent.org/edu/chapter44.php

18 USC §921(2)
The term ''interstate or foreign commerce'' includes commerce between any place in a State and any place outside of that State, or within any possession of the United States (not including the Canal Zone) or the District of Columbia, but such term does not include commerce between places within the same State but through any place outside of that State. The term ''State'' includes the District of Columbia, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, and the possessions of the United States (not including the Canal Zone).


I've made the argument before that there is no legal requirement for the average citizen to have to ever fill out a form 4473 when buying new firearms even from dealers.

I believe your right on several items you've brought up that "bore" the gorilla. However, rule is kept by the barrel of a gun. Somethings though not constitutional or legal at all are being put up with because of that barrel.
 

Freedom1Man

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Messages
4,462
Location
Greater Eastside Washington
I believe you're right on several items you've brought up that "bore" the gorilla. However, rule is kept by the barrel of a gun. Somethings though not constitutional or legal at all are being put up with because of that barrel.

Two Skins. I realize that the laws are being misapplied all the time. I know that many more are unconstitutional.
I will sometime go with the flow on something like the 4473 with my eyes wide open. I have not purchased any from a dealer since I have learned about the correct application of the 4473 though.

You're also correct that it's too true about the "might make right" thing. That is why we are even talking about any of this in a public forum. This is the modern equivalent to the federalist/anti-federalist discussions. The wonderful part is that it's not just taking place on this forum. It's taking place in many outlets such as twitter, blogs, internet radio, other forums, etc.

Thanks for your support BTW.
 

O2HeN2

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Joined
Jan 23, 2012
Messages
229
Location
Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA
In contrast, I had a problem with a Spikes lower a couple months ago. They sent me a return label, chased the grip screw threads (even included a new screw) and sent it back to me. No required ID and didn't cost me a cent.

That's customer service!

O2
 

Phoenix David

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 8, 2009
Messages
605
Location
Glendale, Arizona, USA
If this is warranty work, get the work done at another location and then sue them in small clams court for the cost.

Or you could photo copy your library card and send it to them. Be sure to get the receipt for delivery.
 
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