OC/CC in Wisconsin RIP

[minuteman]

imported post

I carry everywhere and know many others that carry openly, they cannot do anything aside from give you a disorderly conduct. They will if someone calls and complains or it causes a problem but FIGHT IT. They can give a disorderly conduct for any reason period, or any citation for that matter. Its not the police officers job to interpret the law, that is for a court to decide. You will win in court MANY have and theres a pretty big case for a suit against them in return if any of your rights are violated. For the school zone issue it says knows or reasonable cause to believe its a school zone. If your not within view of a school or a sign saying drug free school zone theres no way you could possibly know.

We need to grow a pair and stop playing games, people have bled and died for our rights, if more have to so be it. If we dont use our rights we will loose them and thats whats happened here, nothing but weakness. When is the march count me in, Id like to see people with rifles marching around the capital, you would see alot more people carrying if they actually knew what their rights are. We can never trade our open and carry for CCW but we need both..

 

[pkbites]

imported post

minuteman wrote:

I carry everywhere and know many others that carry openly, they cannot do anything aside from give you a disorderly conduct. They will if someone calls and complains or it causes a problem but FIGHT IT. They can give a disorderly conduct for any reason period, or any citation for that matter. Its not the police officers job to interpret the law, that is for a court to decide. You will win in court MANY have and theres a pretty big case for a suit against them in return if any of your rights are violated. For the school zone issue it says knows or reasonable cause to believe its a school zone. If your not within view of a school or a sign saying drug free school zone theres no way you could possibly know.

I'm in law enforcement in Wisconsin. I need to see some cites for your claim that "many have won in court" on a DC gun charge. I want to go to the court house and read the files on those cases. I get into debates with other officers that open carry isn't DC, but if I had some actual cases of people winning in court it would help. All I need is a last name & maybe an approximate date [year] and I should be able to find the case on the open record computer.

You do realize that Disorderly Conduct isn't always just a local ordinance citation with a small fine. It can be charged as a state crime and include jail time. That's why OC can be a risky proposition here until we get a clear authoritative ruling that it is NOT disorderly conduct by either an anppellate court, the State Supreme Court, or the new Attorney General.

 

[lockman]

imported post

After about an hour of online searches I could find nothing. There was plenty there, but they all pertained to other factors witch included carrying concealed, domestic abuse, drunkenness or prohibited persons. This is good; at least there is no public precedent that states you can be arrested (legally). It would be better to have the case citation in the affirmative for OC.



You know LEO’s are wrong when they can not arrest you for what they claim you are doing. They resort to a completely different charge that does not even include elements pertaining to the original claimed offense.



Elements of the charge of disorderly conduct under Wisconsin criminal laws:

DISORDERLY CONDUCT

• Defendant engaged in violent, abusive, indecent, profane, boisterous, unreasonably loud, or otherwise disorderly conduct
• The conduct of the defendant, under the circumstances as they then existed, tended to cause or provoke a disturbance

Maximum penalty - 90 days jail and $1,000 fine


If an arrestwas made under the DC statute,soley on an LEO complaint, the arrest would not meet the criteara above.

 

[Shotgun]

imported post

I don't believe that it's necessary to search through case after case to support the idea that a disorderly conduct citation would be unconstitutional in Wisconsin. One only needs to look at the Hamdan opinion, which states:

"Article I, Section 25 does not establish an unfettered right to bear arms. Clearly, the State retains the power to impose reasonable regulations on weapons, including a general prohibition on the carrying of concealed weapons. However, the State may not apply these regulations in situations that functionally disallow the exercise of the rights conferred under Article I, Section 25. The State must be especially vigilant in circumstances where a person's need to exercise the right is the most pronounced. If the State applies reasonable laws in circumstances that unreasonably impair the right to keep and bear arms, the State's police power must yield in those circumstances to the exercise of the right. The prohibition of conduct that is indispensable to the right to keep (possess) or bear (carry) arms for lawful purposes will not be sustained."

This passage reflects a good portion ofthe oral argument in the case. Everyone present in the court, plus both sides (state Attorney General's office and Hamdan's lawyer) agreed that there MUST be at least ONEway to exercise the right to bear arms [i.e., either 1- concealed or 2- unconcealed]. If simply carrying a firearm openly was sufficient reason to arrest a person for disorderly conduct, it would "functionally disallow" the exercise of the right to bear arms. Even the AG's lawyer stated during this case that he considered a disorderly conduct charge for open carryto be "an unconstitutional misapplication of the disorderly conduct statute."

I am sure there are many who would want to discourage open carry by perpetuating a myth that it is illegal and subjects one to a disorderly conduct charge, and I'm sure that there are even some LEO's out there who would happily try to act according to that myth and will issue a citation or make an arrest, but I do not believe such a charge, absent other factors that truly would make the arrest legal, would ultimately stand up in the courts. The best thing is to educate everyone, LEO's, the public, prosecutors, gun owners.... EVERYONE!

 

[lockman]

imported post

Then one could reason under Hamdan [/i]that the imposition [/i]placed on bearing arms by the state’s gun free school zones act would “functionally disallow the exercise of the rights conferred under Article I, Section 25” as currently written.

 

[Shotgun]

imported post

lockman wrote:

Then one could reason under Hamdan [/i]that the imposition [/i]placed on bearing arms by the state’s gun free school zones act would “functionally disallow the exercise of the rights conferred under Article I, Section 25” as currently written.

There are a number of restrictions that I think "functionally disallow the exercise," the school zone being one of them. The only one that that the court seemed to recognize might need examination is the current transportation in a vehicle restriction (unloaded and encased). But so far no progress has been made on that!

 

[Monkeyleg]

imported post

"The moribund WCCA always willing to take your cash didn't even have a new entry on its website since last March and that was about Nebraska."

apjonas, I'm getting very sick and tired of hearing how our defeat on election day is the fault of the WCCA, the NRA, or some other group.

"Willing to take your cash?"

Let me see. Where did that cash go to? Not to me. And not to another single WCCA volunteer. It went to pay the expenses for our fund-raising banquet, the actual cost of guns sold at auction, and other actual expenses for fund-raising events you probably never even heard about.

Fortunately, because the WCCA/WCCM is all-volunteer, those expenses were kept to the absolute minumum. We squeeze the quarter until the eagle screams.

So, who got the money? Mark Green's campaign ($10,000). Senator Zien's campaign (~$3000). The campaigns of Scott Gunderson (~$1000), Ron Brown (~$1000), Bill McReynolds ($1000), Tom Reynolds (~$2500), Mary Williams ($500), Mark Pettis ($1000), Paul Tittl ($500), Van Waangaard ($500), Waukesha county sheriff Dan Trawicki ($500), Jeff Plale ($1500), and a whole host of other pro-gun legislators.

Our pre-election report is available online at http://elections.state.wi.us. Our pre-primary report is available at the same website. Because state election laws prohibit contributions of more than $1000 in a Senate election cycle, or more than $500 in an Assembly election cycle, you're going to see a ton of money returned to contributors. But you're also going to see that those contributors sent checks directly to the candidates I named above.

We raised over $32,000 this year to help.

Please name for me one other group in Wisconsin that raises money for pro-gun candidates. Can you name even one? You won't be able to, with the exception of NRA/PVF.

And do you have any idea the amount of time that it takes to raise these funds? Do you have any idea how much time it takes to file the %@#%^%@#$% election board reports?

Let me give you a little glimpse. If you've ever filed your own tax returns, you know what a pain it is to file four or five or even eight pages.

The pre-primary report I filed was over fifty pages. Every last single contribution recorded by hand, and every expense down to the last dime recorded and reported. Honest-to-God, I reported an expenditure of sixty cents, although the law did not require me to do so.

That, along with the fund-raising events, took up pretty much my entire summer. For the couple of hours I got to ride my motorcycle, I probably just should have kept it in storage. As for shooting? Fughettaboutit.

It's been five $*%)%)%) years that we've been trying. And by "we," I mean a ton of volunteers who have dedicated thousands of hours to this cause. People who have spent entire weekends at gun shows in far-flung parts of the state, and then sat in cheap motel rooms at night wondering why they spent three days out of their lives talking to walking bricks.

If you've been a volunteer, email me at dick.baker@wisconsinconcealedcarry.com and let me know your real name. If you've done the time, you have earned the right to complain.

If you haven't volunteered, though, you've earned nothing. Anyone who hasn't done the time hasn't earned the right to criticize volunteers who have gone far and beyond the call. The committed WCCA volunteers have done more to advance the cause of carry--open or concealed--than any legislator could ever have accomplished.

Anyone who criticizes those volunteers owes an apology.

Criticize my mistakes, if you like. I've made many.

But do not ever say that the WCCA/WCCM is a group that's just asking for money.

Keyboard commando's are a dime a dozen. Good volunteers are absolutely golden.

So, which are you?

 

[44Brent]

imported post

-

 

[Monkeyleg]

imported post

44Brent, you're welcome any time to come up here an carry openly. Doesn't matter if you're a WI citizen or an IL citizen: you're going to be arrested on either a Disorderly Conduct or Disturbing the Peace charge.

None of that has changed. The possibility of DC or DP charges hasn't changed.

I don't know how many times I must repeat this, but I am not the "king" of the WCCA. It's all volunteer. Anyone who's willing to do open carry marches has been free to do so, and I've offered my help as the WCCA organizer to publicize such events. I should also note that nobody has taken the initiative to organize such marches.

As the de facto head of the WCCA, though, I've been given advice from the organizers in other states. One in particular was a person who helped organize the open carry marches in Ohio. His advice to me was that open carry marches are, in his words, a "bell that can only be run once."

In other words, time the marches when they will have the maximum benefit, as the media will not give them attention after that.

Given what we (NRA, WCCA, etc) knew going into the veto override votes, this did not seem like the time to ring the bell

Even in hindsight, I don't believe that the NRA nor I nor the core group of WCCA volunteers were wrong. This was not the time to ring the bell.

In perfect hindsight, Doyle's minions were going to cave on the veto override. If it hadn't been Van Akkeren or Steinbrink or Sherman, it would have been somebody else. Who? I have my suspicions, but I wouldn't want to insult a legislative friend on a public forum.

This is NOT about the merits of concealed carry, or even open carry. It is and has always been a political fight. And this fight goes back to the late 1980's.

44Brent, we have made as strong a case as I believe we can before the members of the state legislature for the merits of concealed carry. Back in 2001, I printed brochures for every legislator that outlined the positives and negatives. I didn't sugar-coat it, but I certainly think I delivered the news that the mainstream media would not report.

One legislator had her staffer call me to ask for six more copies of the brochure. She wanted to let her friends/advsisors read what I'd written.

33 Senators, 99 representatives, one AG, and one governor. And only one of all those wanted to weigh the facts.

What does that tell you?

I know what it tells me, and it's what I've known from Day 1: this is not about the merits of open or concealed carry. This is a political issue, and we're just footballs, being kicked from one forty-yard line to another.

"I sure as heck don't take you seriously.  It is apparent to me that you need to have someone up in Wisconsin who has a backbone like Shaun Krannish."

Well, shit, unless I see your name on our volunteer list, I don't take you seriously, either.

If I sound a little bit pissed off, it's because I am. I've never heard of Shaun Krannish. He may be the most wonderful spokesman for RKBA ever, but nobody knows him.

I hear all sorts of names, even as I try to keep my own as low-key as I can. I have personal reasons for wanting to do so.

And, again, all I read on this forum is back-biting about the WCCA, and the decisions I've made in consultation with those volunteers who have worked this cause for years.

Who else should I consult with? Somebody who just emailed a week or so prior to the election?

The anti-gunners, the anti-gun Democrats, and members of Doyle's staff are all on our email alert list. It would be impossible to screen the email addresses.

Given that reality, it's not wise to discuss on open forums or in emails what we're going to do.

And, again, I would ask you to email me at dick.baker@wisconsnconcealedcarry.com, and give me your real name.

For over five years, I've had my real name, street address, city, state, Zip code, phone number and email address right out there in front of anyone who wants to make prank phone calls in the middle of the night, or call for legitimate reasons.

Seems to me, though, that all the tough-guy keyboard commando's should be willing to do the same.

 

[Mike]

imported post

Monkeyleg wrote:

44Brent, you're welcome any time to come up here an carry openly. Doesn't matter if you're a WI citizen or an IL citizen: you're going to be arrested on either a Disorderly Conduct or Disturbing the Peace charge.

Why do you and others keep making these allegations without citing authorities?

Posts of these type are not helpful.

 

[Gray Peterson]

imported post

Well the final nail has been driven in the coffin of CC in the Badger state. It wasn't foul play - it died from neglect. The moribund WCCA always willing to take your cash didn't even have a new entry on its website since last March and that was about Nebraska.

Ok, first, I want to point out a few things:

WCCA/WCCM is an all volunteer organization that takes donations. Yes, you heard that right. If you want to accuse any organization of taking money and living off of it, that honor goes to Wisconsin Gun Owners, a group that helped defeat Senator Dave Zien and Mark Green, despite claiming to be pro-gun.

Second, I invited the leader of the WCCA here, he goes by the name "Monkeyleg" on THR. Monkey has poured in countless hours, money, and time doing what he's doing trying to get CCW passed here is Wisconsin.

Third, the passage of a CCW bill would help us open carriers too. The most recent bill would have allowed full on open carry in a car with a CCW. Granted it's not the same as Virginia and Arizona which are gold star open carry states, but put things on the same level as Washington State, New Hampshire, Pennsylvania, which are all quite pro-gun, and have varying levels of acceptance with open carry.

Folks, I have people I consider my family here in Wisconsin. I was actually so angry at Corey Graff and Jim Doyle at disarming them CCW wise and open carry wise in the car that I actually considered quitting my job, cutting my pride, and moving from a state that's safely CCW (Washington State and Oregon) to here just to fight. I personally CCW if the situation requires it, social reasons, etc.

In the end, folks, this is your state. You have to disarm yourself each and every time you get into your car. I personally don't like that. If you want to continue doing that, that's fine. If you don't like that, then help WCCA. If you don't like the fact that the website hasn't been updated, offer to help webmaster the thing. If there's a shortcoming, OFFER TO HELP instead of lobbing grenades.

 

[ilbob]

imported post

Dick:

FYI - Shaun Kranish is a kid (now 21)from Rockford,Illinois who decided that his contribution to the gun rights fight in Illinoiswas to strap an unloaded gun into a slightly modified tactical holster and wonder around the Rockford area.

It is likely that what he did was entirely legal. Predictably, he was arrested anywayand now faces a felony charge, regardless of the probablelegality of the act.

GOA featured him in an email asking that people send him money for legal fees, and surprisingly (at least to me), he got about $4000 from the email solicitation.


You can read his whole story at icarry.org if you are of a mind to. Some think he is the second coming as far as gun rights in Illinois are concerned. Others are far less complimentary. In the end, it seems likely that his case will be dropped, and it will mean no more than the handful of other similar cases in Illinois. We lost our best chance at CC when the Republican establishment (including a supposed progun state senator) decided to take out the progun candidate who was not tainted by the many scandals in Illinois politics and had a better chance to beat the radical anti-gun candidate that won the election. With friends like that, ...


It is very easy for an anonymous Internet poster to suggest someone should deliberately tweak those in power, since they have no intention of doing so, and thus will not face the inevitable consequences. Those with jobs, kids, wives, and other responsibilities cannot just up and decide to take that kind of risk without serious consideration of those consequences.

I must admit that the lack of updates on your web site gives a very poor impression to those who only know about the organization from looking at the web site. There are a lot of people (especially those who are quite young)that think the Internet is real life, and don't realize it is just a tiny part of real life.

 

[Gray Peterson]

imported post

Mike,

I've had more time here on the ground in Wisconsin from discussing things with other local residents here in the southern tier of the Milwaukee area. Milwaukee PD have been known for having a SWAT mentality and shooting people in the back. Things are pretty bad up here and I have no doubt about the veracity after discussing it with them at length.

Madison, I have no idea about.

44Brent, in this case, I think Monkeyleg is onto something. Again, I've been to Wisconsin here on the ground. I wish I had more time to do the training bulletin thing here in Wisconsin because you can bet that I would do it to drive things along.

Folks, we are an open carry site, however most of us do concealed carry on occasion or sometimes. We need the choice. I believe in WCCA's cause and believe me, if I had nothing back in Washington, I would pack up my things there and move here to fight.

 

[Trip20]

imported post

apjonas wrote:

It wasn't foul play - it died from neglect. The moribund WCCA always willing to take your cash didn't even have a new entry on its website since last March and that was about Nebraska.

What exactly is meant by you with regard to your comment about "cash"? Are you implying that the WCCA is a money-grubbingorganization of volunteers? Any idea why WCCA asks for money? Any idea at all?

It costs money to get pro-gun candidates elected. Simple equation, really. Apparently so simple you completely missed it on your way to make a hasty veiled insult.

To even imply that the WCCA has a damn thing to do with the failure of WI to pass a CCW bill only shows ignorance beyond the boundaries of imagination.

44Brent wrote:

Dick:

I sure as heck don't take you seriously.

Brilliant. Because the strategy you were"itching" to employ was not embraced with vigor, you feel it necessary to get personal?

Monkeyleghas worked sooutrageously hard for Wisconsin gun owners; sacrificed so much of his time and money, that toreadflippant remarks regarding his character (and the character of this organization as a whole), pisses me off to no end.

Insulting another man who's done more for the RKBA in one summer thanmost of you will do in your entire lifetime. You should be ashamed, admit yourinsulting commentsare ill-placed, and apologize to this man, and anyone who's lifted a finger to further the cause while so many other gun owners sat back and shrugged.


Regards,

Bryan Delucia, Wausau, WI, WCCA Volunteer

 

[Gray Peterson]

imported post

Brian,

I definitely agree with you folks.

To the members of this forum, I will say it before and I will say it again: We need CCW in Wisconsin to pass. Dick Baker has done more to try to get it passed than a lot of folk. Most of the hunters in this state don't give a crap about CCW, and think that it can't harm them.

Some of you saw my work in Washington and Oregon, but in those states we have the advantage of having CPL and CHL's backing us on open carry in those states (WA requires it in a car, OR has a preemption hole that allows cities to ban open carry but exempts CHL holders).

Wisconsin doesn't have that.

Folks, I stake my reputation on WCCA. I may not 100 percent agree with everything they does, but they means well, they do well, and they were able to get 2/3's majorities in both the house and the senate of this state (only to get screwed by Doyle's cronies royally).

Dick is also right to be concerned about anti-gun infiltrators. The Doyle machine is starting to rival the Daley machine, and that's saying something. He has spies everywhere.

 

[minuteman]

imported post

We of course need more pro-gun politicians here and we need ccw but everyone is missing the point. People here are weak its sad, they dont even know what their rights are and submit to what some thug orders them to do.

This is called simply tyrannical government,any "peace officer" will and can cite you if someone calls, they can charge anyone with a disorderly conduct at any time for any reason or none at all. Jaywalking, spitting, swearing, yelling, the list would never end.

Court cases? How can there be a case for a trial when the complaintant is a peace officer? Or if the complaintant or supposed disorderly conduct has no grounds because no laws or ordinances have been violated. When DA's and peace officers loose their jobs and municipalities have giant civil rights cases to deal with they just might stop being tyrannical.

The law is clear and the govt works for the people, every cop needs to re-read their oath of office and wake up. You can think you know the law (testify about the law in court just try it) but your duty is to uphold our rights keep the peace and protect the people. If you enforce an ordinance that is unconstitutional what does it make you?

 

[minuteman]

imported post

pkbites, I do know of a case my friend won in Fond Du Lac county if you would like the details shoot me an e-mail or msg. I can send you the minutes from several that have been dismissed right off the bat also if you would like (Columbia and Sauk counties that I know of). I know of none in Madison or Milwaukee but someone needs to stand up, a march would do it Im sure.

God bless you for knowing whats right and keep at it, I understand your worry with the possible charges and I am too, all the more reason to fight it as hard as we can.

 

[minuteman]

imported post

I also have a suggestion to you pkbites or any leo, if you see someone carrying simply ask is everything ok or how are they doing. Thats what most cops do to me when they see me carrying, you will know their intent and theres no need to make it an issue. If the weapon is holstered or slung its a not a threat. A suggestion to anyone carrying if confronted, keep your hands in plain view and comply with intructions.

 

[ilbob]

imported post

minuteman wrote:

pkbites, I do know of a case my friend won in Fond Du Lac county if you would like the details shoot me an e-mail or msg. I can send you the minutes from several that have been dismissed right off the bat also if you would like (Columbia and Sauk counties that I know of).

Why not just post them here?

 

[stopthegrays]

imported post

minuteman wrote:

pkbites, I do know of a case my friend won in Fond Du Lac county if you would like the details shoot me an e-mail or msg. I can send you the minutes from several that have been dismissed right off the bat also if you would like (Columbia and Sauk counties that I know of). I know of none in Madison or Milwaukee but someone needs to stand up, a march would do it Im sure.

God bless you for knowing whats right and keep at it, I understand your worry with the possible charges and I am too, all the more reason to fight it as hard as we can.

Are you talking about Dave? If so, he got popped for CCW and DC. After 3+ years a lot of bond restrictions, more than a few days in court and $7000 he worked a deal with the DA to plead to the DC no contest.