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OC and Motorcycles

amlevin

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Bear 45/70 wrote:
amlevin wroteI'm old numb nuts and sometimes I forget to hit the spell check, but of course you are perfect and have never misspelled a word. My profound apologies for misspelling stupid once in this whole thread.
rolleyes.gif
Perfection was not the issue here, just the inopportune choice of words to misspell.

Also, after 1300+ posts don't you think it might be time to offer a positive comment or two, either about the topic or the persons posting?

You are starting to sound like the cranky old man in the house that kids throw rocks at all the time as they go and come from school.
 

Bear 45/70

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amlevin wrote:
Bear 45/70 wrote:
amlevin wroteI'm old numb nuts and sometimes I forget to hit the spell check, but of course you are perfect and have never misspelled a word. My profound apologies for misspelling stupid once in this whole thread.
rolleyes.gif
Perfection was not the issue here, just the inopportune choice of words to misspell.

Also, after 1300+ posts don't you think it might be time to offer a positive comment or two, either about the topic or the persons posting?

You are starting to sound like the cranky old man in the house that kids throw rocks at all the time as they go and come from school.
Your statement tells me you haven't read all of this thread because I was giving positive advice early on until Hammer started denying the facts. But you are using only part of thisthread to base your judgment on. But that's how so many of the people here are, tunnel visioned instead of looking at the whole picture.
 

Agent 47

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, Washington, USA
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SpringerXDacp wrote:
Now I understand that a motorcycle is considered a vehicle. However, the "in" gives me cause to question, as I technically ride on the externals of the vehicle.

So, does anyone have experience or expertise in the matter? In my head my options are:
  1. Open carry a loaded firearm on the motorcycle and see where that leads
  2. Open carry an unloaded firearm, keeping a magazine handy
  3. Store the pistol in my locking box in my saddle bag
Away from the motorcycle I'll be OCing. I'm just curious my options while riding.
Back on topic.

By your own admission, in Washington, a motorcycle is considered a vehicle. It must be registered, insured and you must be licensed to operate it on our public roads and highways. Therefore, I suspect the laws in Washington pertaining to CC or OC on a motorcycle are similar, if not the same,as those in Michigan. Don't let the grammatics (in or on) fool you. IMHO, you must have the CPL to operate the motorcycle whether it's CC or OC.
Although it is the In / on thing that will stand up in court, A cop could give you a hard time about it, same as a cop can give you a hard time about anything else but if it gets to court little details and loopholes like this are what matters and the fact is you did not place a loaded handguninto a vehicle, so no law has been broken. Think about all the cases that have been thrown out because a loophole in the law. this isn't even a loophole, the purpose of this law was if someone placed a handgun into a vehicle it has effectively been concealed and thus requires a concealed pistol licence. if you are wearing a gun on a motorcycle and have not placed it within the vehicle anywhere it is not concealed and thus no need for a CPL both because the gun is not concealed (same as walking down the street) as well as the gun has not been placed within any vehicle. As for some genuine feedback and advise on the question I ride my motorcycle every day open carry with and without my CPL and I am not breaking any law.
 

Bear 45/70

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Agent 47 wrote:
SpringerXDacp wrote:
Now I understand that a motorcycle is considered a vehicle. However, the "in" gives me cause to question, as I technically ride on the externals of the vehicle.

So, does anyone have experience or expertise in the matter? In my head my options are:
  1. Open carry a loaded firearm on the motorcycle and see where that leads
  2. Open carry an unloaded firearm, keeping a magazine handy
  3. Store the pistol in my locking box in my saddle bag
Away from the motorcycle I'll be OCing. I'm just curious my options while riding.
Back on topic.

By your own admission, in Washington, a motorcycle is considered a vehicle. It must be registered, insured and you must be licensed to operate it on our public roads and highways. Therefore, I suspect the laws in Washington pertaining to CC or OC on a motorcycle are similar, if not the same,as those in Michigan. Don't let the grammatics (in or on) fool you. IMHO, you must have the CPL to operate the motorcycle whether it's CC or OC.
Although it is the In / on thing that will stand up in court, A cop could give you a hard time about it, same as a cop can give you a hard time about anything else but if it gets to court little details and loopholes like this are what matters and the fact is you did not place a loaded handguninto a vehicle, so no law has been broken. Think about all the cases that have been thrown out because a loophole in the law. this isn't even a loophole, the purpose of this law was if someone placed a handgun into a vehicle it has effectively been concealed and thus requires a concealed pistol licence. if you are wearing a gun on a motorcycle and have not placed it within the vehicle anywhere it is not concealed and thus no need for a CPL both because the gun is not concealed (same as walking down the street) as well as the gun has not been placed within any vehicle. As for some genuine feedback and advise on the question I ride my motorcycle every day open carry with and without my CPL and I am not breaking any law.
In/on????? Are you guys aware that in Washington, just leaning a loaded long gun against a vehicle gets you ticketed for no loaded long gunsin a vehicle. So I would think the in/on would bite you big time on a motorcycle.
 

Brad Cowin

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Spokane, Washington, USA
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I've been thinking about OCing my Saiga 12 gauge on my bike pretty soon.

I plan to have the unloaded gun with an unloaded magazine strapped across my back. I will also have a loaded magazine attached to the bike, but away from and not touching myself or the gun. I have no destination and am not on my way to or from engaging in any "legitimate outdoor activity". I am also only 19 years old.

Does the above scenario sound completely legal?
 

t3rmin

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Brad Cowin wrote:
I've been thinking about OCing my Saiga 12 gauge on my bike pretty soon.

I plan to have the unloaded gun with an unloaded magazine strapped across my back. I will also have a loaded magazine attached to the bike, but away from and not touching myself or the gun. I have no destination and am not on my way to or from engaging in any "legitimate outdoor activity". I am also only 19 years old.

Does the above scenario sound completely legal?

It sounds completely like asking for trouble...
 

Brad Cowin

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t3rmin wrote:
Brad Cowin wrote:
I've been thinking about OCing my Saiga 12 gauge on my bike pretty soon.

I plan to have the unloaded gun with an unloaded magazine strapped across my back. I will also have a loaded magazine attached to the bike, but away from and not touching myself or the gun. I have no destination and am not on my way to or from engaging in any "legitimate outdoor activity". I am also only 19 years old.

Does the above scenario sound completely legal?

It sounds completely like asking for trouble...

I should have explained a little more...

I ride a dual sport bike (on/off road bike) and am mainly doing this to test the water before I take my bike (and shotgun) camping various times over the summer. It may seem a little extreme or unnecessary to some, but I'm not really worried about that. As far as I can see this would be perfectly legal, and honestly to me that is all that really matters.

Here is the RCW pertaining to long guns and vehicles: http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=77.15.460

Its interesting that they say in AND on a motor vehicle for RCW 77.15.460 but only in any vehicle for RCW 9.41.050.
 

Hammer

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Bear 45/70 wrote:
You are a teachers nightmare. You believe that your opinion is fact and there can be nothing that trumps your opinion, even actual real fact. But far be it for me to make you understand that you are not the Emperor, whose word is straight from God.
rolleyes.gif


To be old and wise you must first be young and stupid
Once again, the question is avoided. Are you a teacher, as a profession, or not? The only "teacher" I'm a nightmare for is you- the self-proclaimed wise one.
The quote above could not have been better written- for YOU
Get a grip :banghead:
 

Bear 45/70

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Hammer wrote:
Bear 45/70 wrote:
You are a teachers nightmare. You believe that your opinion is fact and there can be nothing that trumps your opinion, even actual real fact. But far be it for me to make you understand that you are not the Emperor, whose word is straight from God.
rolleyes.gif


To be old and wise you must first be young and stupid
Once again, the question is avoided. Are you a teacher, as a profession, or not? The only "teacher" I'm a nightmare for is you- the self-proclaimed wise one.
The quote above could not have been better written- for YOU
Get a grip :banghead:
I have spent at least half my life starting when I was 21 teaching people. First in the military then later on, as a trainer in sevearal professions. So even though you will disagree and seem to be trying to not let your foolishness drop, yes I have been a teacher of many and varied people over the years. Can you say the same? As to me and getting a grip, it is apparent you have no gripon reality. So why don't you go bother someone else.
 

Agent 47

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Bear 45/70 wrote:
In/on????? Are you guys aware that in Washington, just leaning a loaded long gun against a vehicle gets you ticketed for no loaded long gunsin a vehicle. So I would think the in/on would bite you big time on a motorcycle.
I call bullshit on this one Bear. You make a statement like thisI want to see someproof. Even if a cop issues a ticket my point is that it could not stand up in court.
 

Hammer

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Bear 45/70 wrote:
Hammer wrote:
Bear 45/70 wrote:
You are a teachers nightmare. You believe that your opinion is fact and there can be nothing that trumps your opinion, even actual real fact. But far be it for me to make you understand that you are not the Emperor, whose word is straight from God.
rolleyes.gif


To be old and wise you must first be young and stupid
Once again, the question is avoided. Are you a teacher, as a profession, or not? The only "teacher" I'm a nightmare for is you- the self-proclaimed wise one.
The quote above could not have been better written- for YOU
Get a grip :banghead:
I have spent at least half my life starting when I was 21 teaching people. First in the military then later on, as a trainer in sevearal professions. So even though you will disagree and seem to be trying to not let your foolishness drop, yes I have been a teacher of many and varied people over the years. Can you say the same? As to me and getting a grip, it is apparent you have no gripon reality. So why don't you go bother someone else.

so it's easy to gather that, even tho you may have been placed in front of some others and told to share what you know, the real answer is no, you are not teaching as a profession.
That would explain why you somehow think you "just keep telling them" until they learn.
I'll repeat it here because you seem slow to gather it in: That doesn't work
If you are so obnoxious in your presentation your information is rejected, no one will listen or learn.
Like I said, get a grip.
Why should I know? Why yes, I am an instructor. I do get paid to teach. No, not kids, adults. Your tax dollars pay me. (I'm laughing at you here)

So grab ahold of this reality:
I asked you where I gave advice. Tho you wouldn't initially answer, it eventually came out that you ASSumed my statements were advice.
If I were giving advice, it would require that I intend those statements be accepted as advice. I made it clear that was not my intent.
Then you proceded to tell me my intent. How would you know my intent?
Clearly, you are under the impression that you are God.
Even your buddies here try to get you to drop it.
Your self-proclaimed moderation of the forum bothers them, too.
I'm sure it's easier to pick on a newbie like me, cause usually they will cower and slink away.
That didn't work so well this time, did it?
So here's a thought for ya
You represent this forum and board, even if not formally.
You've given it quite a bad representation in this thread. No one except you would disagree with that.
You can bet yer sweet bippy any time I get a chance, I will point straight to this exchange any time this group comes up.
Have you helped your cause?
That'd be a resounding
NO
So here's a thought- how about you at least take a step toward making it right by apologizing to me and the others that read this forum. Then, in the future, DON'T be the forum police. You aren't authorized to do it.
Your opinion (yes, that's all it is, not God-spoken fact) will be better received when you quit trying to force it on those you encounter.

I highly doubt your ego will allow the above, but threw it in there just cause it needed sayiing.
 

Trigger Dr

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Hammer,

You have made some good points, as has Bear. One point you have missed is that the request to "DROP IT" was made to you as well.

So....Please DROP IT
 

joeroket

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Agent 47 wrote:
Bear 45/70 wrote:
In/on????? Are you guys aware that in Washington, just leaning a loaded long gun against a vehicle gets you ticketed for no loaded long gunsin a vehicle. So I would think the in/on would bite you big time on a motorcycle.
I call bull@#$% on this one Bear. You make a statement like thisI want to see someproof. Even if a cop issues a ticket my point is that it could not stand up in court.
I have to agree with Agent 47 on this one bear. The fish and wildlife code that, I think you are referring to actually says "on" in the code.

(1) A person is guilty of unlawful possession of a loaded firearm in a motor vehicle if:

(a) The person carries, transports, conveys, possesses, or controls a rifle or shotgun in or on a motor vehicle; and

(b) The rifle or shotgun contains shells or cartridges in the magazine or chamber, or is a muzzle-loading firearm that is loaded and capped or primed.
 

Bear 45/70

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joeroket wrote:
Agent 47 wrote:
Bear 45/70 wrote:
In/on????? Are you guys aware that in Washington, just leaning a loaded long gun against a vehicle gets you ticketed for no loaded long gunsin a vehicle. So I would think the in/on would bite you big time on a motorcycle.
I call bull@#$% on this one Bear. You make a statement like thisI want to see someproof. Even if a cop issues a ticket my point is that it could not stand up in court.
I have to agree with Agent 47 on this one bear. The fish and wildlife code that, I think you are referring to actually says "on" in the code.

(1) A person is guilty of unlawful possession of a loaded firearm in a motor vehicle if:

(a) The person carries, transports, conveys, possesses, or controls a rifle or shotgun in or on a motor vehicle; and

(b) The rifle or shotgun contains shells or cartridges in the magazine or chamber, or is a muzzle-loading firearm that is loaded and capped or primed.
Go ahead and get the ticket. You can spend your lifes savings proving your point in court. If you really think you areright, why notget to proving I'm wrong and you're right. But at this point I wouldn't bet on it. I will bet if you don't have a CPL and are OCing on a motorcycle, the copwill ticket you. As you well know a motorcycle is a vehicle in this state. Then again you could get an A.G. opinion, but until one or the other happens, it isn't worth in to me to test it.
 

joeroket

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Bear 45/70 wrote:
joeroket wrote:
Agent 47 wrote:
Bear 45/70 wrote:
In/on????? Are you guys aware that in Washington, just leaning a loaded long gun against a vehicle gets you ticketed for no loaded long gunsin a vehicle. So I would think the in/on would bite you big time on a motorcycle.
I call bull@#$% on this one Bear. You make a statement like thisI want to see someproof. Even if a cop issues a ticket my point is that it could not stand up in court.
I have to agree with Agent 47 on this one bear. The fish and wildlife code that, I think you are referring to actually says "on" in the code.

(1) A person is guilty of unlawful possession of a loaded firearm in a motor vehicle if:

(a) The person carries, transports, conveys, possesses, or controls a rifle or shotgun in or on a motor vehicle; and

(b) The rifle or shotgun contains shells or cartridges in the magazine or chamber, or is a muzzle-loading firearm that is loaded and capped or primed.
Go ahead and get the ticket. You can spend your lifes savings proving your point in court. If you really think you areright, why notget to proving I'm wrong and you're right. But at this point I wouldn't bet on it. I will bet if you don't have a CPL and are OCing on a motorcycle, the copwill ticket you. As you well know a motorcycle is a vehicle in this state. Then again you could get an A.G. opinion, but until one or the other happens, it isn't worth in to me to test it.
Let me correct myself Bear. I agree with Agent 47 in the sense that he called BS as far as the comparison between the wildlife code and 9.41 code. I have agreed all along that I think the motorcycle is included in the code and that OC on a bike with no CPL is asking for a court battle which, IMHO, will be lost as the courts will look at legislative intent. I think their intent was to not allow loaded firearms in or on any vehicle.
 

Hammer

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Riverdog wrote:
I have been wondering about OC while riding a motorcycle. My CPL renewal hasn't come through yet (I'm an idiot and let it lapse) and I'll be doing a weekend motorcycle camping ride in the Olympics. Having read RCW 9.41.050, specifically section 2a:

(2)(a) A person shall not carry or place a loaded pistol in any vehicle unless the person has a license to carry a concealed pistol and: (i) The pistol is on the licensee's person, (ii) the licensee is within the vehicle at all times that the pistol is there, or (iii) the licensee is away from the vehicle and the pistol is locked within the vehicle and concealed from view from outside the vehicle.
Now I understand that a motorcycle is considered a vehicle. However, the "in" gives me cause to question, as I technically ride on the externals of the vehicle.

So, does anyone have experience or expertise in the matter? In my head my options are:
  1. Open carry a loaded firearm on the motorcycle and see where that leads
  2. Open carry an unloaded firearm, keeping a magazine handy
  3. Store the pistol in my locking box in my saddle bag
Away from the motorcycle I'll be OCing. I'm just curious my options while riding.
First, Riverdog, I want to apologize for muddying up the water around your question. I certainly didn't set out to get involved in a pissing contest.

Next, I think I better explain my method better, and what works or might not.
First, as a holder of a CPL, I can carry concealed anytime, except witin the NP's. The obvious answer there is to unload and put the sidearm away. How far you deem it necessary to separate gun and clip/ammo, you be the judge. I got read the riot act- but let go- some time ago for having the 2 in proximity. Thus my opinion that putting gun and ammo in separate bags precludes that argument.
My OC treads close to the line. It is a high ridiing holster on my belt. It is covered but for the last inch of barrel/slide when on the bike. I could easily argue it is concealed. It's no more apparent than a gun that's printing thru clothing.
Once off the bike and coat removed, it is OC.
As to OC on a motorcycle, it would seem that it would need to be unloaded. If that is the case, it's as well off in a bag with ammo nearby as it is on your person. It's not very instant either way.
The whole thing seems like a matter of small significance if you will soon get your CPL. Carry it concealed on the bike and the argument over just how ends.

Now if you wanna see a whole 'nother set of arguments (thanks but not for me) ask a bunch of M/C riders how to carry concealed on the bike. There's all kinds of opinions on where, what condition, what injuries might result if you crash with pistol in this position or that, yadda, yadda.
Have fun at Kalaloch! I was just there last week! Very nice ride. I touched the 4 corners of WA.
 

Bear 45/70

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Hammer wrote:
Riverdog wrote:
I have been wondering about OC while riding a motorcycle. My CPL renewal hasn't come through yet (I'm an idiot and let it lapse) and I'll be doing a weekend motorcycle camping ride in the Olympics. Having read RCW 9.41.050, specifically section 2a:

(2)(a) A person shall not carry or place a loaded pistol in any vehicle unless the person has a license to carry a concealed pistol and: (i) The pistol is on the licensee's person, (ii) the licensee is within the vehicle at all times that the pistol is there, or (iii) the licensee is away from the vehicle and the pistol is locked within the vehicle and concealed from view from outside the vehicle.
Now I understand that a motorcycle is considered a vehicle. However, the "in" gives me cause to question, as I technically ride on the externals of the vehicle.

So, does anyone have experience or expertise in the matter? In my head my options are:
  1. Open carry a loaded firearm on the motorcycle and see where that leads
  2. Open carry an unloaded firearm, keeping a magazine handy
  3. Store the pistol in my locking box in my saddle bag
Away from the motorcycle I'll be OCing. I'm just curious my options while riding.
First, Riverdog, I want to apologize for muddying up the water around your question. I certainly didn't set out to get involved in a pissing contest.

Next, I think I better explain my method better, and what works or might not.
First, as a holder of a CPL, I can carry concealed anytime, except witin the NP's. The obvious answer there is to unload and put the sidearm away. How far you deem it necessary to separate gun and clip/ammo, you be the judge. I got read the riot act- but let go- some time ago for having the 2 in proximity. Thus my opinion that putting gun and ammo in separate bags precludes that argument.
My OC treads close to the line. It is a high ridiing holster on my belt. It is covered but for the last inch of barrel/slide when on the bike. I could easily argue it is concealed. It's no more apparent than a gun that's printing thru clothing.
Once off the bike and coat removed, it is OC.
As to OC on a motorcycle, it would seem that it would need to be unloaded. If that is the case, it's as well off in a bag with ammo nearby as it is on your person. It's not very instant either way.
The whole thing seems like a matter of small significance if you will soon get your CPL. Carry it concealed on the bike and the argument over just how ends.

Now if you wanna see a whole 'nother set of arguments (thanks but not for me) ask a bunch of M/C riders how to carry concealed on the bike. There's all kinds of opinions on where, what condition, what injuries might result if you crash with pistol in this position or that, yadda, yadda.
Have fun at Kalaloch! I was just there last week! Very nice ride. I touched the 4 corners of WA.
Please explain why once he gets his CPL, he can't OC on the bike?
 

Riverdog

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Thanks for all the replies (thread hijacking aside :p)! So as an update:

I considered the options and decided to place my sidearm in my saddlebag with the clips and sidarm in the same padded case. I'm not keen on being the guy to see how the state supreme court views in versus on a motorcycle. Plus it was 90F+ on parts of the ride (101F from Yakima to Tri-Cities) and I'm not sure how more uncomfortable having that black pistol and holster would have made me hanging on my hip.

Aside from that, I open carried while away from the bike and didn't seem to get a single raised eyebrow from anyone (Mom & Pop diners to forest service dudes). Of course I did keep the gun unloaded and safely locked away while I was in the NP.
 
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