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O'Bama Sends DoD to Eject Citizen Troop Guardians from Strip Malls in Las Vegas!

MAC702

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
6,331
Location
Nevada
When it comes to private property, barring any "town center" affirmative defense that wouldn't work until you got to court, you can be trespassed for any reason that does not involve your civil rights, like race or religion. A reason doesn't even have to be given. But it DOES have to come from someone with the authority from the property owner. But if he trespasses you for being armed, it still applies, unless otherwise stated, to YOU, not to just an armed you.

You've already had conversations with the officially hired "security." Ask them what the owner's trespassing procedures are. He might even pull out a card with NRS 207.200 written out on it because many of them have an official spiel that they have to give to the person being officially trespassed.

You can't be trespassed from public offices, but that doesn't mean you can loiter, either. But again, that would only apply inside the leased office, not a common, private parking lot.

My only real general counsel at this point is to be careful that your presence wouldn't cause a potential recruit to hesitate to use the office.
 
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Ron_O

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2014
Messages
109
Location
Las Vegas
When it comes to private property, barring any "town center" affirmative defense that wouldn't work until you got to court, you can be trespassed for any reason that does not involve your civil rights, like race or religion. A reason doesn't even have to be given. But it DOES have to come from someone with the authority from the property owner. But if he trespasses you for being armed, it still applies, unless otherwise stated, to YOU, not to just an armed you.

You've already had conversations with the officially hired "security." Ask them what the owner's trespassing procedures are. He might even pull out a card with NRS 207.200 written out on it because many of them have an official spiel that they have to give to the person being officially trespassed.

You can't be trespassed from public offices, but that doesn't mean you can loiter, either. But again, that would only apply inside the leased office, not a common, private parking lot.

My only real general counsel at this point is to be careful that your presence wouldn't cause a potential recruit to hesitate to use the office.

I think there has to be a legal exception to general trespass when it comes to public entities. They can perhaps tell me no guns while doing business there but they can't bar me from the public entities. I believe they lose that privilege when they start taking $$ from Caesar. I'll have to speak with a civil rights and property attorney to get clarification.

The property owner may tell us to screw the DoD, that they want us out there and support our cause! I'm still not convinced that the property owner was even aware of DoD's objections. DoD seemed to be trying to pull this off due to their TENANT's rights, nothing more. According to the RJ reporter, the DoD has no trespass rights on private property.
 

MAC702

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
6,331
Location
Nevada
I think there has to be a legal exception to general trespass when it comes to public entities. They can perhaps tell me no guns while doing business there but they can't bar me from the public entities. I believe they lose that privilege when they start taking $$ from Caesar. ...

Either you have full, legal access to them or you don't. They can't put conditions on it.

Let's say we are talking about a post office leased on private property, for example. The owner of the property can't enforce a "no mailing of guns" policy on his property. If he allows a post office, he'd have to allow full legal access to the post office, including the lawful mailing of anything legal.

You are allowed full legal access to the military recruiting office, while you are there for official purposes. The property owner can't enforce a policy that prohibits otherwise legal activities for that office, for example, enforcing a dress code that the office itself doesn't have.

Your problem is that you are not in the public office, nor there for official purposes. You are fair game for the property owner to trespass at his pleasure, for any reason. But the DoD has no say in it, regardless.

Now, if you were trespassed by the owner for being on his parking lot, I imagine you'd still be able to legally come back for the sole purpose of going inside to enlist in the Army.
 

Logan 5

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 16, 2012
Messages
696
Location
Utah
He had no need to 'look into the legality of it before actually doing it' as it's obvious he never did anything illegal. EVEN IF there comes to be a legal trespass order (per person), that isn't in effect until that individual has been notified. No one would need written consent to be in a public area, unless, again, trying to head off a trespass order from someone pretending to have authority, which still doesn't make the initial presence wrong.

There is no need for those doing this activity to be verified or prior anything, except lawfully armed civilians. The only thing we can ask is that they be safe about it.

I will never Monday-morning-QB someone's recording. I can only hope to have a tenth as much presence of mind as I do when typing on the Internet. Telling him to 'use his head next time' was entirely uncalled for.
1. Private parking lots are...private. It is not owned by the city. Think about that one for a minute.
2. No, I disagree that he should have used his head. He wasn't thinking when he engaged in non-related discussing about conspiracy theories. But that's ok. His choice.

Mac, I pretty much ignored the post you quoted as it's an outline for '50 ways to get them to say NO before you get started'. Not even worth commenting on. What we were doing was highly publicized and broadly visible and even the mall security guards were giving us some very hearty thumb's up, including letting us know that the negative element had left the shopping centers as a result of our presence. Apparently the bad guys are more afraid of the 'armed citizen whack-jobs' than they are of the police or mall security. We don't have to play by the same rules that those guys do LOL.

And, use my head about WHAT? We'd been there a week doing our thing, with ZERO resistance from property owners. In the video I chose to give Metro all the rope it needed to hang itself. They just kept taking more, and all the while the magical 'letter' never appeared. We're guessing that the woman showed Metro something on her phone that resembled an email from someone important. If you watch the video you'll see Metro ask us several times to stick around, not leave, so they 'could do it right'. I guarantee you that this woman's authority had never been challenged until I called Metro on her. When it came time to put up or shut up she had no ball to play with.

They also made it clear several times that we were free to go, so we left. No prior clearance was needed, we've been doing this all over Clark County and except for this ONE SINGLE WOMAN no one associated with any of the malls had even SUGGESTED that we leave. In fact it was quite the opposite, the shop owners invited us in, brought us gifts, and thanked us for being there, they too thankful for the lack of the shady element that often hung around there, in addition to supporting our cause.

If you had the "ok" from everybody as you suggested, then it's not "50 ways to get them to say NO before you get started".
The parking lot is still private. Public access, public use, but the owner can still say no.

Why not contact the owner and ask, now, since they allegedly already said no?
 

MAC702

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
6,331
Location
Nevada
1. Private parking lots are...private. It is not owned by the city. Think about that one for a minute.
2. No, I disagree that he should have used his head. He wasn't thinking when he engaged in non-related discussing about conspiracy theories. But that's ok. His choice.

If you had the "ok" from everybody as you suggested, then it's not "50 ways to get them to say NO before you get started".
The parking lot is still private. Public access, public use, but the owner can still say no.

Why not contact the owner and ask, now, since they allegedly already said no?

1. Being private is not in dispute; in fact it's key to the issue. But the "city" has NOTHING to do with this.
2. I guess you use your head faster than most. Sorry we can't keep up with you.
3. Do you ask Wal-Mart if what you are wearing is okay with them before going shopping?
4. The owner has not been demonstrated to have said no, and no one has been trespassed. The one claiming otherwise is the one that needs to document it.
 
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28kfps

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 1, 2012
Messages
1,534
Location
Pointy end and slightly to the left
I also stopped reading after I read him saying one needs to "check the legality". Really, for doing a legal activity? Officer it is ok if I do the speed limit?
Looks like the only way to get to the bottom of the issue is to contact the owner of the property. Probably never happen if owned by some kind of corporation. Just end up talking to a paid deflector.
 

Ron_O

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2014
Messages
109
Location
Las Vegas
FOX5 News Tonight, but now NLVPD kicks our guy off of Craig center.

A couple of our online members were out at the Henderson recruiting location again today, as they've been doing for a week now, and I called Henderson PD out to get some clarification on their stance with this because they'd been highly supportive. Right afterward we had the FOX5 news guys out for an interview. They said they'd do the report tonight. Interesting note is that both the news guys are 2A advocates who carry themselves, but they added that their management was NOT gun friendly.

The bad news is that one of our most diligent troop guardians and another guy were just kicked off of the NLV Craig location by NLVPD. Josh posted a video of it in progress. I'd spoken with him earlier in the day and he was ready for whoever may have shown up to try to trespass him.

The way it went down was that according to NLVPD the property manager contacted them and asked them to remove our guys. The property manager told NLVPD that they didn't want to trespass the guys, only to ask them to stop open carrying on their property because it was scaring people who were calling in (Bloomies or DoD?).

They were welcome to come back unarmed.

Sadly, the police provided no actual proof from the owners and it was never mentioned how they'd verified the owners themselves. The police clearly state that they have no problem with the guys being out there and also that they've spoken with the recruiters and they're fine with it as well. The guys left on their own fruition and Josh said he'd sleep on it but planned on being back in the morning until he was actually trespassed. He's been extremely faithful about being out there.

Here's his video>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqwCxiZ5rTs

Henderson PD and the recruiters inside could not have been more supportive and HPD said it was their stance that the recruiter's authority ended at their doorstep and they had no business running us off. They said it's no different than Trader Joe's trying to run the protesters off their property but being unable to because the protesters have a 1st Amendment right to be there and protest, Henderson taking a 'Town Square' approach to the matter.

It's very possible that the courts will see this as a Town Square issue because the recruiting centers belong to the public so that opens the shopping centers up to public access and scrutiny.

We'll continue researching our options.
 

Logan 5

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 16, 2012
Messages
696
Location
Utah
I'm not going to get into it here with you on this. Let's just leave it as we agree that we disagree. You can always talk to a lawyer and get his/her opinion on the trespass issue. I could be wrong, who knows.
 

Ron_O

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2014
Messages
109
Location
Las Vegas
I'm not going to get into it here with you on this. Let's just leave it as we agree that we disagree. You can always talk to a lawyer and get his/her opinion on the trespass issue. I could be wrong, who knows.

We're all on the same team! This issue is bigger than all of us. Your best good intentions are duly noted.

The way things are shaping up I believe our best avenue may be the Town Square Freedom of Speech 1A/2A approach, as Henderson PD has been viewing it. Shopping centers with military centers and Post Offices may well tilt such shopping centers into the 'public domain' category.

On another note, here's the FOX5 report. I think they're going to help with our groundswell efforts. Their Facebook page is lighting up. We need to take a proactive approach to our visibility on social media because a lot of people are trying to make up their minds on the issue and our input will help them join the fray.

http://www.fox5vegas.com/story/29701285/citizen-guarding-recruiting-center-says-he-was-told-to-leave

https://www.facebook.com/FOX5LasVegas/posts/10153528078166672?
 
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Ron_O

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2014
Messages
109
Location
Las Vegas
Free Speech in Shopping Centers! Supreme Court Rulings on Our Side!!

Good news.

I've read through most of the applicable Supreme Court rulings regarding Free Speech in private shopping centers and I believe that Henderson has it right. They are relying on a case called Amalgamated Food Employees Union Local 590 v. Logan Valley Plaza, Inc.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/391/308

In this case the Court ruled that shopping centers are essentially the modern version of the town square and are relying on a case called Marsh v. Alabama in which a private company-owned town tried to restrict the free speech of a person who was distributing leaflets.

In the Logan Valley case (as it's referred to) union workers from across town were picketing a non-union store that had just opened up in a large shopping mall. The lower courts kicked the protesters out toward the curb but the Supreme Court ruled that they can't get their message out from the berms to which they were pushed (which bordered the property). The Court said that they needed to convey their message and as long as they weren't disruptive they had a right to be there in the virtual shadow of the store.

The courts have since narrowed the ruling but it still stands. The Court has held that as long as the protest is pertinent to a BUSINESS WITHIN THE SHOPPING CENTER then the protester shall be there, providing that THAT proves to be the most practical way to convey the message. The property owner CANNOT trespass us for exercising our Free Speech rights.

The Court further expands the ruling to state that if the center is inviting the public in via facilities such as a Post Office and other public entities then it is more closely replicating an actual town square which is open to the public. One can easily argue that a recruiting center is kicking this door wide open and that applies to everywhere we go.

Justice Marshall further expanded his views on Logan Valley in his dissent of Hudgens v. NLRB in which he offers clear definitions of what Logan Valley still holds valid. This clearly applies to us, as I thought it should.

Furthermore, the Court has made it clear that the 1st Amendment was written to protect the People from the government. The DoD is violating the law by attempting in any way to violate our Free Speech rights. I don't know what the penalty is but I believe the mystery woman has broken the law and should be brought up on charges for her obvious violations of our civil rights. This makes it clear as to why she was likely given orders to not identify herself. The feds already know that they can't run us off without claiming some sort of national security issue.

KEEP IN MIND THAT I AM NOT A LAWYER AND I AM NOT GIVING LEGAL ADVICE. I'm only conveying to you what I've learned as a way of opening discussion.

I will further outline how our case presents itself.

**The government has a policy of not arming our troops in the homeland.
**Our troops have been murdered and were unable to fight back or protect themselves.
**We believe that the government should arm our troops or at minimum post guards at the doors.
**We have chosen to defend the troops ourselves as a result of the government's unwillingness to do so.
**We believe the best way to convey our message is by standing guard.
**We will CEASE standing guard as soon as the policy is changed.
**We believe the most effective way to communicate our message is by manning the military installations with ARMED GUARDS, not simply picketers (important--COMMUNICATE our message).
**We don't believe we can convey our message from the sidewalks or online etc. because we need to maintain the visual of our presence plus that's the most effective way to protect our troops (important).
**We feel that moving it out to the sidewalks would endanger US to attacks due to a much broadened exposure and inability to monitor possible threats (important, outlined in the Logan Valley case).
**This is a town square issue because of the public entities in the malls.
**Our legally carried weapons are tools that we're using to convey our message and without them our mission would be pointless. They ARE our posters, signs, or placards. We need nothing further to convey our message.

These points are all taken from components outlined in the court rulings.

I'm going to draft a letter as my time allows and send it off to the different agencies. If they don't back off then I believe we can secure a Court Order to continue until our case is heard.

These rulings are posted on a page that I posted last week on the Nevada Shooters site:

http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/do-you-have-free-speech-in-a-shopping-mall

If you're out guarding a station and are asked to leave please let them know that they're subjecting themselves to 1st Amendment litigation based on the Supreme Court ruling Amalgamated Food Employees Union v. Logan Valley Plaza . Suggest that they have their attorneys review it before taking trespass action (such as having them come back the next day).

WHATEVER YOU DO, find a way to get your communications on video so we can use it as evidence should we need to take legal action. This ruling should apply nationwide.

Your input is welcome.

FYI I'm not an attorney but years ago I had a multi-million $$ personal case and my attorney and I worked side by side for nearly two years. For the first time in his 30 year career he'd hand me (a layman) books and ask me to convey to him what I learned so we could apply it to our case as it was relevant, he admitting that it was impossible for him to know it all when it came to the law (including me researching case law, court rulings, etc.). We ended up winning the largest award of it's kind ever given by a jury for our type of case (and then the appeals drug on...).

My only point in mentioning this is that I think I've read these rulings effectively. If local agencies and landlords don't want to listen to us then I'll find an attorney who specializes in civil rights litigation. I think we can draft a memo for our guys and gals to hand to anyone attempting to trespass us.

I'll try to get some letters out today but I have some important business to finish up which will take up much of my day today.

Please provide some feedback. I know that some of you thrive in researching case law so have a look at Logan Valley for starters.
 

NAVYBLUE

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2011
Messages
109
Location
Peoples Republic of North Las Vegas
Good news.

I've read through most of the applicable Supreme Court rulings regarding Free Speech in private shopping centers and I believe that Henderson has it right. They are relying on a case called Amalgamated Food Employees Union Local 590 v. Logan Valley Plaza, Inc.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/391/308

In this case the Court ruled that shopping centers are essentially the modern version of the town square and are relying on a case called Marsh v. Alabama in which a private company-owned town tried to restrict the free speech of a person who was distributing leaflets.

In the Logan Valley case (as it's referred to) union workers from across town were picketing a non-union store that had just opened up in a large shopping mall. The lower courts kicked the protesters out toward the curb but the Supreme Court ruled that they can't get their message out from the berms to which they were pushed (which bordered the property). The Court said that they needed to convey their message and as long as they weren't disruptive they had a right to be there in the virtual shadow of the store.

Ron

The courts have since narrowed the ruling but it still stands. The Court has held that as long as the protest is pertinent to a BUSINESS WITHIN THE SHOPPING CENTER then the protester shall be there, providing that THAT proves to be the most practical way to convey the message. The property owner CANNOT trespass us for exercising our Free Speech rights.

The Court further expands the ruling to state that if the center is inviting the public in via facilities such as a Post Office and other public entities then it is more closely replicating an actual town square which is open to the public. One can easily argue that a recruiting center is kicking this door wide open and that applies to everywhere we go.

Justice Marshall further expanded his views on Logan Valley in his dissent of Hudgens v. NLRB in which he offers clear definitions of what Logan Valley still holds valid. This clearly applies to us, as I thought it should.

Furthermore, the Court has made it clear that the 1st Amendment was written to protect the People from the government. The DoD is violating the law by attempting in any way to violate our Free Speech rights. I don't know what the penalty is but I believe the mystery woman has broken the law and should be brought up on charges for her obvious violations of our civil rights. This makes it clear as to why she was likely given orders to not identify herself. The feds already know that they can't run us off without claiming some sort of national security issue.

KEEP IN MIND THAT I AM NOT A LAWYER AND I AM NOT GIVING LEGAL ADVICE. I'm only conveying to you what I've learned as a way of opening discussion.

I will further outline how our case presents itself.

**The government has a policy of not arming our troops in the homeland.
**Our troops have been murdered and were unable to fight back or protect themselves.
**We believe that the government should arm our troops or at minimum post guards at the doors.
**We have chosen to defend the troops ourselves as a result of the government's unwillingness to do so.
**We believe the best way to convey our message is by standing guard.
**We will CEASE standing guard as soon as the policy is changed.
**We believe the most effective way to communicate our message is by manning the military installations with ARMED GUARDS, not simply picketers (important--COMMUNICATE our message).
**We don't believe we can convey our message from the sidewalks or online etc. because we need to maintain the visual of our presence plus that's the most effective way to protect our troops (important).
**We feel that moving it out to the sidewalks would endanger US to attacks due to a much broadened exposure and inability to monitor possible threats (important, outlined in the Logan Valley case).
**This is a town square issue because of the public entities in the malls.
**Our legally carried weapons are tools that we're using to convey our message and without them our mission would be pointless. They ARE our posters, signs, or placards. We need nothing further to convey our message.

These points are all taken from components outlined in the court rulings.

I'm going to draft a letter as my time allows and send it off to the different agencies. If they don't back off then I believe we can secure a Court Order to continue until our case is heard.

These rulings are posted on a page that I posted last week on the Nevada Shooters site:

http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/do-you-have-free-speech-in-a-shopping-mall

If you're out guarding a station and are asked to leave please let them know that they're subjecting themselves to 1st Amendment litigation based on the Supreme Court ruling Amalgamated Food Employees Union v. Logan Valley Plaza . Suggest that they have their attorneys review it before taking trespass action (such as having them come back the next day).

WHATEVER YOU DO, find a way to get your communications on video so we can use it as evidence should we need to take legal action. This ruling should apply nationwide.

Your input is welcome.

FYI I'm not an attorney but years ago I had a multi-million $$ personal case and my attorney and I worked side by side for nearly two years. For the first time in his 30 year career he'd hand me (a layman) books and ask me to convey to him what I learned so we could apply it to our case as it was relevant, he admitting that it was impossible for him to know it all when it came to the law (including me researching case law, court rulings, etc.). We ended up winning the largest award of it's kind ever given by a jury for our type of case (and then the appeals drug on...).

My only point in mentioning this is that I think I've read these rulings effectively. If local agencies and landlords don't want to listen to us then I'll find an attorney who specializes in civil rights litigation. I think we can draft a memo for our guys and gals to hand to anyone attempting to trespass us.

I'll try to get some letters out today but I have some important business to finish up which will take up much of my day today.

Please provide some feedback. I know that some of you thrive in researching case law so have a look at Logan Valley for starters.

Ron_O,

I believe your reasoning is correct. I would suggest a "little trick" to almost guarantee no one can trespass the "Guardians". HAND OUT leaflets while they are "guarding" the recruiters with hand outs basically saying words to the effect that " the people (receiving the handouts") please call numbers listed (NV congress/Senate) and tell them we want our recruiters armed for their safety. Make it a FIRST amendment issue with "guardian" who just happen to be exercisng their SECOND amendment rights.

I am presently back east until mid September visiting family but plan to be a "guardian" after I return and a "certain" poster gets my wife and I trained to get our CCW and gets me trained in the proper safety, cleaning, loading and shooting of my new 40 cal rifle. Been ages since I shot a rifle and want to get my stuff together and be safe.

For those who don't know me I am retired (28 years) NAVY E9, and was a NAVY recruiter (76-79) on Long Island, NY and from 90-93 was in charge off all of New Jersey, NYC (5) boroughs and Westchester/Putnam counties north of NYC NAVY recruiters.

Its going to be a cold day in hell before I am going to let my brothers in arms work unprotected when they have protected all of us.

NAVYBLUE/#WeAreAllMarinesNow
 

DVC

Regular Member
Joined
May 12, 2010
Messages
1,185
Location
City? Who wants to live in a CITY?, Nevada, USA
The owner of private property can decide that there will be no firearms there. His only way to enforce it is trespass, but he IS empowered to offer you the chance to not be trespassed if you meet his requirements ("If-Then-Else").

It doesn't matter what other activity you might be engaged in (thus the 1st Amendment idea is ineffective), so long as you are not being subjected to discrimination for being in a class which is legally protected (race, religion, etc). However, making this a campaign for solving the problem is a lot more useful than simply becoming an ad hoc protective society.

The person or organization which rents or leases space on private property has the same powers to trespass as the owner, unless limits are specified in the rental or lease agreement. And, remember, the people in authority over the people you're protecting can punish THEM for not doing everything within their power to remove you.
 

The Big Guy

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2009
Messages
1,966
Location
Waco, TX
Not only is Navyblue offering you a good idea about handing out flyers, I think you could also use the Nevada Statute that Don't Tread on Me came up with concerning coercion. It is on here someplace or I'm sure he will chime in with it again.

TBG
 

Ron_O

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2014
Messages
109
Location
Las Vegas
OK My Friends,

I took some time to draft a letter that should serve as a preliminary notice to the public entities in Clark County. This should test the waters to see what kind of response we can expect.

I sent it out to the four major police departments in our area, Metro, Henderson, NLV, and Boulder City. I've opted out of sending anything to their legal departments at this time and will leave that to the Sheriff and police chiefs.

I'll follow up with the media outlets but not until the agencies have time to respond. If we don't hear back then this will go to the media and I'll serve the entities personally. I'd prefer to sit down with the Sheriff but I really don't think that's necessary. If they pass it on to their legal department things should be clear and simple in short notice.

On another note, I plan to get us some info cards to hand out at our locations. We'll have a photo on one side and contact info along with a statement on the other. I'll post that separately so we can all have some input in selecting the photo we use in addition to what to write on the back. I've shot an email to my printer to get a quote on 3"x 5" and similar sized card stock full color cards.

Below is the email I shot out.

To Whom it May Concern:

As a result of the Chattanooga, TN attacks on military installations, a number of citizens in Clark County have chosen to make their voices heard by taking up arms and guarding the recruiting stations and other military outlets throughout the county. We feel that it is not only our privilege and duty to protect those who have sworn to defend the Constitution with their lives and service, but also that we have to exercise our 1st Amendment rights in sending a message to the President and Pentagon that while they enjoy the highest levels of security and protection it is wholly unacceptable that our troops in the homeland are left defenseless in the wake of possible future terror attacks.

As you know, in Nevada it's legal to open carry weapons, and as protesters we prefer to exercise our 1st and 2nd Amendment rights while protecting the troops as a part of our Free Speech expression. At least one of our guys has stated his presence as strictly symbolic, to send a message to the White House, while others share in a joint mission of protection and speech.

The Supreme Court has ruled on our specific form of protest, that of demonstrating near a business located in a private shopping center, and in Amalgamated Food Employees Union Local 590 v. Logan Valley Plaza, Inc. 391 U.S. 308 (https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/391/308) they ruled that for our purposes these shopping centers represent a modern day 'town square' which allows us to freely exercise our 1st Amendment rights as it specifically relates to the recruiting centers inside the shopping centers.

Justice Marshall has further noted in Hudgens v. NLRB that when a shopping mall opens itself to public entities such as recruiting centers and Post Offices, as we have in the mall located at 4632 S. Maryland Pkwy in Las Vegas, it would be impossible not to apply the town square classification to the center.

Since Logan Valley the courts have narrowed the ruling but have clearly left open the application as it relates to our efforts. They have in fact ruled that it would be improper to ask us to move away from the buildings for a number of reasons, citing among other things the practical efficiency of communicating our message and the safety concerns of moving us to an area that could expose us and others to possible anticipated or unanticipated risks. It is our belief that we need to be in the direct vicinity of the entrances to the facility, not only to best convey our message but also in narrowing exposures to that immediate area rather than in a broader area beyond the immediate vicinity of the military centers in question.

We have never proven to be in any way disruptive to the recruiting centers or other businesses and in fact it's been exactly the opposite. Recruiters and neighboring businesses alike have welcomed us in and even given our volunteers gifts in appreciation for our efforts. We have had a stellar relationship with Metro, UNLV police, Henderson PD, NLVPD, and mall security alike. The bottom line is that everyone from the troops on up have expressed their appreciation in having us there. It has been a very rewarding experience for all to be able to give back to our troops.

The Department of Defense has argued that we are negatively impacting their recruiting mission by being there but the courts have ruled that they have no standing in their argument. In fact, in a recent FOX5 News interview, two potential recruits who'd just left the station expressed exactly the opposite, that they felt protected in having us there and that we in no way intimidated their efforts.

http://www.fox5vegas.com/story/29701285/citizen-guarding-recruiting-center-says-he-was-told-to-leave

As a side note, allow me to briefly outline a few of the backgrounds of the guys and gals on post. Our volunteers consist of a former Marine sniper, LAPD and NYPD SWAT members, Army and Marine combat vets who recently served in Afghanistan, an Army vet who's training in counter-terrorism, other vets, and several citizens, most of whom have decades of training and firearms experience. My experience has been that this is a highly qualified group of citizens to do the job.

I'll add that we've regularly been vetted by both the military and law enforcement as we've posted at the military centers. We also vet out one another.

The City of Henderson has gotten this right and enforces strictly within the guidelines of Logan Valley, adding that they've had recent picketers outside of Trader Joe's which cannot be trespassed from that shopping mall. They see our efforts as no different than those who are outside of Trader Joe's.

The courts have made it clear that the 1st Amendment was drafted to protect the People from the government, a direct effort to prevent the government from quenching the Free Speech rights of the People.

However this has proven to be problematic in our situation. Not only do we have a legal right against being trespassed on private property under Logan Valley, but we are protected from government agency attempts to quash our speech. Even the DoD affirmed this truth in a recent interview with the Review-Journal in which their spokesman stated that the DoD CANNOT trespass anyone from private property. The Court has ruled that their ability to do so ends at their doorstep and only covers the interior of their facilities. The DoD spokesman stated that they can only trespass individuals from federally owned property and that applies to NONE of the facilities in question here in Clark County.

However last week several of our volunteers were run off of several of the properties by a woman who refused to identify herself but who made it clear that she was representing the federal government. In one case she ordered one of the troops to run our guy off and in several other cases she did it directly. When one of our guys questioned her authority (he being a long time LAPD officer) she refused to provide any form of identification but was able to instill enough fear in our guy that he complied voluntarily. Less than an hour later this same woman came to a facility that I was manning near UNLV. I had just called Metro to ask them to intervene and the woman arrived as the Metro officer and another volunteer and I were discussing the matter.

This is all on video, including the woman in question: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcILioB88rM

As the video demonstrates, Metro went inside the recruiting offices and met with the woman in question. They returned to confirm that she was a government employee who claimed to have the authority to trespass us from the property (a clear violation of law), they repeatedly referencing some type of letter that she had shown them. I spoke at length with Metro as to the parameters of the trespass laws but they continued to side with the woman who they identified as being with DoD (Department of Defense). We voluntarily left the scene without incident and proceeded to attain legal advice.

It's our affirmation that both the DoD representative and Metro violated our 1st Amendment and other Constitutional rights as outlined in Logan Valley and others. Furthermore, it seems that we were welcome to return as long as we weren't carrying our legally-carried firearms, an infringement on our 2nd Amendment rights. The courts, in Logan Valley, have also seen this as a violation of our 14th Amendment rights.

To be clear, we've had an excellent relationship with everyone involved since we began our project. We have no desire to litigate but reserve our right to do so should this unlawful enforcement not cease IMMEDIATELY. When it comes to protecting our troops we expect law enforcement to PROTECT our rights as citizens, not assist in violating them.

To outline, our mere presence is our protest banner, the fact that we're armed outside of military installations after the highly publicized Chattanooga event. This has widely been covered in the media and all are aware of what we're doing and why we're there. Our weapons are our protest signs. We communicate our message verbally to a lot of the public but it's usually them approaching us to thank us for our efforts because they're fully aware of why we're there.

Because this has been an unorganized effort in which concerned citizens just started showing up to guard stations across the county, it's taken us some time to connect and communicate as well as plan shifts and coverage. One of the things we have inline is to draft some handout's for those who are wanting to know more about our cause. We expect to have those ready for distribution in the next few days.

Again, we don't want to expend private or public resources, but if we continue to receive unlawful resistance we'll be left with no other alternative but to litigate and seek protection under the courts.

The DoD has every right to exclude us from within their facilities while we're carrying firearms, but they have zero authority under the law to make any attempt to trespass us from the properties. The same applies to the property owners themselves.

We have video of NLVPD attempting to trespass two of our guys from a Craig recruitment center, NLVPD claiming that they were acting on the orders of the property owner. That enforcement needs to cease as well. They left voluntarily but they left under the threat of trespass, as shown in the following video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqwCxiZ5rTs

Until the unidentified DoD rep showed up it would be impossible to overstate the positive reception of our guys and gals throughout the county. The government has now instilled undeniable fear into our volunteers to the point that some of them refuse to continue with their efforts, and in doing such the DoD has overtly violated our civil rights under the U.S. Constitution. We demand to know who this woman is and her title as well as the agency that she works with. She is visible in the first video above.

As you can imagine, our men and women volunteers are under enough stress as it is while standing guard against a possible threat toward our military. We don't need the added stress of fighting unlawful government efforts to quash our speech and intimidate us in doing so.

For the record, last Tuesday one of our guys was trespassed from the station on S. Rainbow ave., one from one of the Craig locations the following day, two of us from the UNLV station that same day, another from the W. Lake Mead station sometime that week, and another from a Craig station in NLV on Friday. Those are FIVE SEPARATE INCIDENTS which were all enacted by the woman, as identified as working for the DoD.

We are respectfully requesting the courtesy of a response by all parties involved, and thank you in advance for working with us to protect our Constitutional rights in this matter so that we can continue uninhibited in our mission.

On behalf of a large group of volunteers,


Ron O'Brien
Citizen Guardians
 

The Big Guy

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2009
Messages
1,966
Location
Waco, TX
If the property owner (mall) didn't want you there, wouldn't he/she have initially had their security guard approach you to leave? Isn't that what they get paid for? Wouldn't the mall security at least be advised about the owners wishes? It smells.

TBG
 

BB62

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Aug 17, 2006
Messages
4,069
Location
Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
OK My Friends,

I took some time to draft a letter that should serve as a preliminary notice to the public entities in Clark County. This should test the waters to see what kind of response we can expect...
I salute your efforts, and especially your approach.

I recognize that your communication could be considered as "notice", although it is not labelled as such.

Keep up the good work.
 

NAVYBLUE

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2011
Messages
109
Location
Peoples Republic of North Las Vegas
OK My Friends,

I took some time to draft a letter that should serve as a preliminary notice to the public entities in Clark County. This should test the waters to see what kind of response we can expect.

I sent it out to the four major police departments in our area, Metro, Henderson, NLV, and Boulder City. I've opted out of sending anything to their legal departments at this time and will leave that to the Sheriff and police chiefs.

I'll follow up with the media outlets but not until the agencies have time to respond. If we don't hear back then this will go to the media and I'll serve the entities personally. I'd prefer to sit down with the Sheriff but I really don't think that's necessary. If they pass it on to their legal department things should be clear and simple in short notice.

On another note, I plan to get us some info cards to hand out at our locations. We'll have a photo on one side and contact info along with a statement on the other. I'll post that separately so we can all have some input in selecting the photo we use in addition to what to write on the back. I've shot an email to my printer to get a quote on 3"x 5" and similar sized card stock full color cards.

Below is the email I shot out.

To Whom it May Concern:

As a result of the Chattanooga, TN attacks on military installations, a number of citizens in Clark County have chosen to make their voices heard by taking up arms and guarding the recruiting stations and other military outlets throughout the county. We feel that it is not only our privilege and duty to protect those who have sworn to defend the Constitution with their lives and service, but also that we have to exercise our 1st Amendment rights in sending a message to the President and Pentagon that while they enjoy the highest levels of security and protection it is wholly unacceptable that our troops in the homeland are left defenseless in the wake of possible future terror attacks.

As you know, in Nevada it's legal to open carry weapons, and as protesters we prefer to exercise our 1st and 2nd Amendment rights while protecting the troops as a part of our Free Speech expression. At least one of our guys has stated his presence as strictly symbolic, to send a message to the White House, while others share in a joint mission of protection and speech.

The Supreme Court has ruled on our specific form of protest, that of demonstrating near a business located in a private shopping center, and in Amalgamated Food Employees Union Local 590 v. Logan Valley Plaza, Inc. 391 U.S. 308 (https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/391/308) they ruled that for our purposes these shopping centers represent a modern day 'town square' which allows us to freely exercise our 1st Amendment rights as it specifically relates to the recruiting centers inside the shopping centers.

Justice Marshall has further noted in Hudgens v. NLRB that when a shopping mall opens itself to public entities such as recruiting centers and Post Offices, as we have in the mall located at 4632 S. Maryland Pkwy in Las Vegas, it would be impossible not to apply the town square classification to the center.

Since Logan Valley the courts have narrowed the ruling but have clearly left open the application as it relates to our efforts. They have in fact ruled that it would be improper to ask us to move away from the buildings for a number of reasons, citing among other things the practical efficiency of communicating our message and the safety concerns of moving us to an area that could expose us and others to possible anticipated or unanticipated risks. It is our belief that we need to be in the direct vicinity of the entrances to the facility, not only to best convey our message but also in narrowing exposures to that immediate area rather than in a broader area beyond the immediate vicinity of the military centers in question.

We have never proven to be in any way disruptive to the recruiting centers or other businesses and in fact it's been exactly the opposite. Recruiters and neighboring businesses alike have welcomed us in and even given our volunteers gifts in appreciation for our efforts. We have had a stellar relationship with Metro, UNLV police, Henderson PD, NLVPD, and mall security alike. The bottom line is that everyone from the troops on up have expressed their appreciation in having us there. It has been a very rewarding experience for all to be able to give back to our troops.

The Department of Defense has argued that we are negatively impacting their recruiting mission by being there but the courts have ruled that they have no standing in their argument. In fact, in a recent FOX5 News interview, two potential recruits who'd just left the station expressed exactly the opposite, that they felt protected in having us there and that we in no way intimidated their efforts.

http://www.fox5vegas.com/story/29701285/citizen-guarding-recruiting-center-says-he-was-told-to-leave

As a side note, allow me to briefly outline a few of the backgrounds of the guys and gals on post. Our volunteers consist of a former Marine sniper, LAPD and NYPD SWAT members, Army and Marine combat vets who recently served in Afghanistan, an Army vet who's training in counter-terrorism, other vets, and several citizens, most of whom have decades of training and firearms experience. My experience has been that this is a highly qualified group of citizens to do the job.

I'll add that we've regularly been vetted by both the military and law enforcement as we've posted at the military centers. We also vet out one another.

The City of Henderson has gotten this right and enforces strictly within the guidelines of Logan Valley, adding that they've had recent picketers outside of Trader Joe's which cannot be trespassed from that shopping mall. They see our efforts as no different than those who are outside of Trader Joe's.

The courts have made it clear that the 1st Amendment was drafted to protect the People from the government, a direct effort to prevent the government from quenching the Free Speech rights of the People.

However this has proven to be problematic in our situation. Not only do we have a legal right against being trespassed on private property under Logan Valley, but we are protected from government agency attempts to quash our speech. Even the DoD affirmed this truth in a recent interview with the Review-Journal in which their spokesman stated that the DoD CANNOT trespass anyone from private property. The Court has ruled that their ability to do so ends at their doorstep and only covers the interior of their facilities. The DoD spokesman stated that they can only trespass individuals from federally owned property and that applies to NONE of the facilities in question here in Clark County.

However last week several of our volunteers were run off of several of the properties by a woman who refused to identify herself but who made it clear that she was representing the federal government. In one case she ordered one of the troops to run our guy off and in several other cases she did it directly. When one of our guys questioned her authority (he being a long time LAPD officer) she refused to provide any form of identification but was able to instill enough fear in our guy that he complied voluntarily. Less than an hour later this same woman came to a facility that I was manning near UNLV. I had just called Metro to ask them to intervene and the woman arrived as the Metro officer and another volunteer and I were discussing the matter.

This is all on video, including the woman in question: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcILioB88rM

As the video demonstrates, Metro went inside the recruiting offices and met with the woman in question. They returned to confirm that she was a government employee who claimed to have the authority to trespass us from the property (a clear violation of law), they repeatedly referencing some type of letter that she had shown them. I spoke at length with Metro as to the parameters of the trespass laws but they continued to side with the woman who they identified as being with DoD (Department of Defense). We voluntarily left the scene without incident and proceeded to attain legal advice.

It's our affirmation that both the DoD representative and Metro violated our 1st Amendment and other Constitutional rights as outlined in Logan Valley and others. Furthermore, it seems that we were welcome to return as long as we weren't carrying our legally-carried firearms, an infringement on our 2nd Amendment rights. The courts, in Logan Valley, have also seen this as a violation of our 14th Amendment rights.

To be clear, we've had an excellent relationship with everyone involved since we began our project. We have no desire to litigate but reserve our right to do so should this unlawful enforcement not cease IMMEDIATELY. When it comes to protecting our troops we expect law enforcement to PROTECT our rights as citizens, not assist in violating them.

To outline, our mere presence is our protest banner, the fact that we're armed outside of military installations after the highly publicized Chattanooga event. This has widely been covered in the media and all are aware of what we're doing and why we're there. Our weapons are our protest signs. We communicate our message verbally to a lot of the public but it's usually them approaching us to thank us for our efforts because they're fully aware of why we're there.

Because this has been an unorganized effort in which concerned citizens just started showing up to guard stations across the county, it's taken us some time to connect and communicate as well as plan shifts and coverage. One of the things we have inline is to draft some handout's for those who are wanting to know more about our cause. We expect to have those ready for distribution in the next few days.

Again, we don't want to expend private or public resources, but if we continue to receive unlawful resistance we'll be left with no other alternative but to litigate and seek protection under the courts.

The DoD has every right to exclude us from within their facilities while we're carrying firearms, but they have zero authority under the law to make any attempt to trespass us from the properties. The same applies to the property owners themselves.

We have video of NLVPD attempting to trespass two of our guys from a Craig recruitment center, NLVPD claiming that they were acting on the orders of the property owner. That enforcement needs to cease as well. They left voluntarily but they left under the threat of trespass, as shown in the following video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqwCxiZ5rTs

Until the unidentified DoD rep showed up it would be impossible to overstate the positive reception of our guys and gals throughout the county. The government has now instilled undeniable fear into our volunteers to the point that some of them refuse to continue with their efforts, and in doing such the DoD has overtly violated our civil rights under the U.S. Constitution. We demand to know who this woman is and her title as well as the agency that she works with. She is visible in the first video above.

As you can imagine, our men and women volunteers are under enough stress as it is while standing guard against a possible threat toward our military. We don't need the added stress of fighting unlawful government efforts to quash our speech and intimidate us in doing so.

For the record, last Tuesday one of our guys was trespassed from the station on S. Rainbow ave., one from one of the Craig locations the following day, two of us from the UNLV station that same day, another from the W. Lake Mead station sometime that week, and another from a Craig station in NLV on Friday. Those are FIVE SEPARATE INCIDENTS which were all enacted by the woman, as identified as working for the DoD.

We are respectfully requesting the courtesy of a response by all parties involved, and thank you in advance for working with us to protect our Constitutional rights in this matter so that we can continue uninhibited in our mission.

On behalf of a large group of volunteers,


Ron O'Brien
Citizen Guardians

Ron,

EXCELLENT presentation with LEGAL FACTS, case law and common sense. I will bet my next paycheck the woman is from "Homeland Security". They have the police departments by the balls with subtle threats of "decreased funding" if they don't toe the line.

My words to her would be " under what authority are you trespassing me" ? "If you don't have a letter from the property owner or can PROVE you represent the owner under NEVADA law, you have NO legal authority to trespass me" "If you are from "Homeland Security", I will remind you I am "homeland security" as I took an oath to defend this country against all enemies, foreign an domestic, until my death, NOT YOU" "So, Ma'am, where is your legal proof"

Again, the police hierarchy "may" be doing her bidding under pressure.

NAVYBLUE/#WeAreAllMarines
 

Ron_O

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2014
Messages
109
Location
Las Vegas
Information Handouts

I'm going to have some business cards printed up that we can distribute where we're guarding stations. Conveniently sized so they can go in our pockets.

Our printed message can be as simple as 'Protect our Troops' to something a bit more in depth, such as "Tell the President to arm the troops in the Homeland" with a phone and email address for the White House.

It's also been suggested that we add the name of the Logan Valley case to the card as a point of legal reference for those who may try to trespass us.

I'll setup an email address for contacting us which will also be on the card. I'd like to be able to drop these off at some businesses around town so our guys can pick them up at their convenience. Perhaps some of the gun shops would be interested?

I've pulled some photos up for use. I've used the 'We the People' logo before and had text above and below the logo on the front of the card.

Pics below, please voice your thoughts about your preferences and why if possible.

1401544201327_cached (3).jpgMemorial 1.jpgMemorial 2.jpgMemorial 3.jpgMemorial 4.jpgmemorial 5.jpgMemorial 6.jpgMemorial 7.jpgsecond-amendment.jpg
 
Last edited:

DVC

Regular Member
Joined
May 12, 2010
Messages
1,185
Location
City? Who wants to live in a CITY?, Nevada, USA
If the property owner (mall) didn't want you there, wouldn't he/she have initially had their security guard approach you to leave?

Not necessarily, if the person making the complaint were A), "representing" the DOD, and B), said that they would take care of it.

I'm on the fence over this one. I can see both sides, and each has merit.

I would be uncomfortable if a group of guys with guns started camping outside my front door to protect me, especially if my boss were telling me to get rid of them.

I like the idea of handing out the cards pushing for rules change. I think that I would have them say "If the recruiters could have THEIR guns, I wouldn't have to be here with MINE."
 

Ron_O

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2014
Messages
109
Location
Las Vegas
Not necessarily, if the person making the complaint were A), "representing" the DOD, and B), said that they would take care of it.

I'm on the fence over this one. I can see both sides, and each has merit.

I would be uncomfortable if a group of guys with guns started camping outside my front door to protect me, especially if my boss were telling me to get rid of them.

I like the idea of handing out the cards pushing for rules change. I think that I would have them say "If the recruiters could have THEIR guns, I wouldn't have to be here with MINE."

I think that's a great blurb for the cards.

Here's the official response from NLVPD. I have some more important updates to add when I free up more time.

_____________________________​


Mr O'Brien;

I have received your e mail, and just wanted to clarify the North Las Vegas Police stance on this issue.. You are correct that Nevada is a legal open carry state, however, you need to realize that the recruitment centers are all privately owned property of the federal government. I realize that that seems a contradiction, however, by state law even though the federal government is a public entity they are still recognized as "private" property holders for the trespass laws and have the right to refuse service to any individual that they feel is in violation of their rules while on that property. Although they are normally in shopping centers, the federal government has purchased that individual piece of property.

If they call us to have individuals removed from their property that is well within their rights as property owners. I have no doubt that your groups intentions are noble, but we also have a duty to enforce the laws of our state which include the trespass law. If the owner of the property wants any individual off their property we are obligated to enforce that statute. If that happens you do have the right to stand on the sidewalk (public property).

The problem that the recruitment centers have is that they have been given directives, regarding no weapons on their property, by their superiors and they are enforcing this directive which is their right on their privately owned property.

I have personally visited with all the recruitment centers in North Las Vegas, and a number of my officers have also done site visits. they do not wish to have armed guards at their property. I thank you and your group for their diligence and dedication in wanting to protect these sites, however, if any of your members are asked to leave by the representative of the owner by state law they must leave the property.

If you need any other information please feel free to call me or e mail me.

--

Dave Noahr
Assistant Chief of Police

North Las Vegas Police Department
3755 W. Washburn
North Las Vegas, NV 89031
702-633-1017 Ext: 5001
702-633-1815 Fax
 
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