Need some VA gun law advice.

[skidmark]

.

But it does take a majority of people to gain a conviction - that group of people being the jury.

BZZZZZ! Wrong! It's a misdemeanor - all you get is a judge.

I presented the case law in Virginia regarding what brandishing is.

So did I. Do either of us win a prize?

And no, you presented no case law. You presented an incomplete reference to the Code of Virginia and some person's opinion. Case law is what's presented here: http://www.virginia1774.org/Page5.html

I'm pretty sure we are very close to beating this horse to death, and nether the OP nor his friend have chimed in to say anything one way or another.

stay safe.

PS - missed your post on wanting a shovel from the Va Court of Appeals. Even so it seems I have delivered several to you.

 

[sudden valley gunner]

Don't see the perception of prudish or puritanical having anything to do with it.

There is a difference in the laws (different states) and the application thereof.

The poster I replied and the others Navy replied are not just talking law they are talking perceptions of others.

IF people make a big deal about having a drink it seems sort of prudish and puritanical. Although many puritans drank way more than we do nowadays.

 

[sudden valley gunner]

How can you tell when you have reached the legal limit of being intoxicated? Are you drunk now?

???? I'll wait for a counter to the actual words said.

 

[sudden valley gunner]

BZZZZZ! Wrong! It's a misdemeanor - all you get is a judge.



So did I. Do either of us win a prize?

And no, you presented no case law. You presented an incomplete reference to the Code of Virginia and some person's opinion. Case law is what's presented here: http://www.virginia1774.org/Page5.html

I'm pretty sure we are very close to beating this horse to death, and nether the OP nor his friend have chimed in to say anything one way or another.

stay safe.

PS - missed your post on wanting a shovel from the Va Court of Appeals. Even so it seems I have delivered several to you.

Off topic surprise here. Your state has done away with your right to a jury trial if it isn't a felony?

 

[JamesCanby]

I've read the entire thread and no one seems to have said -- unless I missed it -- that if you DO have to use your firearm AND you have been drinking alcoholic beverages, the prosecuting attorney is going to have a field day characterizing you as a person "under the influence" and therefore your judgement was impaired. Remember that in Virginia -- the state under consideration in the OP's posting -- does not identify a specific BAC in the statute for "being under the influence."

I will not risk consuming alcoholic beverages while carrying and having that situation become an issue in any legal situation.

 

[skidmark]

http://www.vacriminaldefenselawyer.com/criminal-court/

What’s the Difference between District Court and Circuit Court?

The District Court has jurisdiction over misdemeanor criminal cases. It also hears preliminary hearings in felony cases. The preliminary hearings in felony cases are held in order to establish whether enough evidence exists to hold the individual for a grand jury (there is more information about the grand jury below).

There are no jury trials in District Court. In other words, the judge, rather than a jury, will hear the evidence and render a verdict. There are 131 district courts in Virginia.

also

http://public.getlegal.com/legal-info-center/6th-amendment/

IMPARTIAL JURY

At most trials, a defendant has a right to a jury. If the crime carries a sentence of six months or fewer, however, a defendant may be tried by only a judge, although many states provide a jury regardless of the crime or punishment.

Not only does a defendant have a right to a jury, but that jury also must be impartial. This essentially means that jurors must be unbiased and that the pool from which the jury members are selected — the venire — must fairly represent a cross-section of the community.

It is such as it is. The verdict of the General District Court is appealable to the Circuit Court, where you will get your jury.

http://www.livesaymyers.com/criminal-appeals-to-circuit-courts-virginia/

Appeals to circuit courts in Virginia. The most common form of criminal appeal in Virginia is the appeal from a district court to a circuit court.

Virginia has two types of district courts: (a) general district courts and (b) juvenile and domestic relations district courts (J&DR courts):

General district courts. These courts hear misdemeanor and traffic trials, felony preliminary hearings, protective orders and civil matters up to a certain dollar amount. In the criminal and traffic arena, to have a case in general district court, the accused must be at least 18 years old at the time of the offense, the alleged victim of the offense must be at least 18 years old at the time of the offense, and the offense must not have been committed against a family or household member.

Juvenile and domestic relations district courts. These courts hear misdemeanor and traffic trials, felony preliminary hearings, as well as matters involving child custody, visitation and support, child abuse and neglect, foster care, protective orders, and some other family-related areas. Again, in the criminal and traffic arena, a matter is heard in J&DR court when the accused is under the age of 18, the alleged victim is under the age of 18, or those involved in the offense are family or household members.

In either general district or J&DR court, the defendant’s trial is in front of a judge only, who makes the determination of guilt or innocence, and upon a guilty verdict also imposes punishment. In most cases, trial and sentencing occur on the same date in these courts.

In Virginia, a defendant has the absolute right to appeal any adverse decision of a district court decision to circuit court [emphasis added], where the defendant will receive a brand new trial. In such an appeal to circuit court, the verdict and sentence of the district court are wiped away as if they never took place. The circuit court is not reviewing whether the district court made any errors in its ruling—rather the circuit court case is a fresh trial from the beginning (this is called a de novo appeal).

So no, Virginians have not had their right to a jury on a misdemeanor charge done away with. It just takes longer to get there.

I have a suspicion that there might be some connection between the historically high representation of lawyers in the General Assembly and the way the law is written/the system operates.:uhoh:

But again, the point is not what they do in any of the other 56 states - it's what happens in Virginia.

As a personal note: I greatly appreciate your merely telling us what they do in WA, as opposed to a certain Yankee who always told us we were "doing it wrong" but never accepted an invitation to come and show us how to do it properly.

stay safe.

 

[user]

I just scrolled through the last page of posts here, and while I saw words and phrases that caught my interest, I said to myself, "I can't be reading all this [stuff]." Y'all just do what you want - but make sure you've got my phone number in your wallet, just in case.

And, Skidmark: it isn't lawyers in the GA it's a cultural artifact that they mostly participate in from Eighteenth Century England. The real problem is them humans. If we could just get rid of all the humans, the Earth would be fine!

 

[wrearick]

well, I contacted the folks at handgunlaw.us and pointed out the error in their post, providing links to the Va. code as well as cutting and pasting it.

Here is the response I got:

Bill. Handgunlaw.us mainly deals with Concealed Carry. You can not consume when carrying concealed. The last sentence states that though I do not say it only covers concealed. I will add the code # so people can look it up themselves. Stay Safe Safe, Gary Slider

Guess they should change their name to concealedhandgunlaw.us since they admit that they are not willing to present all handgun law, but mainly those that deal with Concealed Carry.

Anyone know of a good resource for researching various state gunlaws? when I plan a trip to another state, I intend to open carry so I need a site that I can depend on to present all applicable laws in the states I will travel through, not just (or mainly) concealed carry laws. I don't want to be a mainly law abiding citizen....that can land one in Jail as mostly following the law doesn't fly very far with the Law Enforcement folks I know.

 

[Grapeshot]

well, I contacted the folks at handgunlaw.us and pointed out the error in their post, providing links to the Va. code as well as cutting and pasting it.

Here is the response I got:

Bill. Handgunlaw.us mainly deals with Concealed Carry. You can not consume when carrying concealed. The last sentence states that though I do not say it only covers concealed. I will add the code # so people can look it up themselves. Stay Safe Safe, Gary Slider

Guess they should change their name to concealedhandgunlaw.us since they admit that they are not willing to present all handgun law, but mainly those that deal with Concealed Carry.

Anyone know of a good resource for researching various state gunlaws? when I plan a trip to another state, I intend to open carry so I need a site that I can depend on to present all applicable laws in the states I will travel through, not just (or mainly) concealed carry laws. I don't want to be a mainly law abiding citizen....that can land one in Jail as mostly following the law doesn't fly very far with the Law Enforcement folks I know.

State-by-state firearms information
http://www.gunlaws.com/links/

The Traveler's Guide to the Firearm Laws of the Fifty States
Because you are subject to arrest for simply traveling from state to state with a personal firearm, some sort of guide has been badly needed for years. This excellent book covers all the basics for armed travel: vehicles, the glove box, open carry, loaded or not, weapon types, much more.
Available from the VCDL store: http://vcdl-gear.myshopify.com/collections/books

http://www.gunlaws.com/travel.htm

 

[Grapeshot]

--snipped--

IF people make a big deal about having a drink it seems sort of prudish and puritanical. Although many puritans drank way more than we do nowadays.

It often wasn't safe to drink the water for various reasons.

 

[Grapeshot]

--snipped--

So, it seems to come down to the biggest question of how much of your life are we going to change because of What Ifs and Could Happens?

Most all self-defense preparations are based on "what ifs" and "could happens." So too are safety considerations.

 

[wrearick]

State-by-state firearms information
http://www.gunlaws.com/links/

The Traveler's Guide to the Firearm Laws of the Fifty States
Because you are subject to arrest for simply traveling from state to state with a personal firearm, some sort of guide has been badly needed for years. This excellent book covers all the basics for armed travel: vehicles, the glove box, open carry, loaded or not, weapon types, much more.
Available from the VCDL store: http://vcdl-gear.myshopify.com/collections/books

http://www.gunlaws.com/travel.htm

Thanks! I should have picked up the book when I was working the booth at the gun show but foolishly thought an online resource would be more accurate because it was easier to keep up to date.....

 

[Grapeshot]

Thanks! I should have picked up the book when I was working the booth at the gun show but foolishly thought an online resource would be more accurate because it was easier to keep up to date.....

We are unfortunately always a little behind in the learning curve - you sleep, you lose.

 

[skidmark]

So, it seems like the subject of having a beer with lunch/dinner in Virginia is about 99% what if and could happen.
....
So, it seems to come down to the biggest question of how much of your life are we going to change because of What Ifs and Could Happens? You know, you could be beaten to death with a flower pot. There is more historical evidence to suggest that you are more likely to be beaten to death with a flower pot than of some of the what ifs and could happens that we like to discuss regarding open carry:
....

....

Does anybody realize how discouraging it is to have to quote yourself as the appropriate response to the above?

Just to clarify - in VA the issue is not intoxication but being under the influence, which is not quantified as regards firearms. "Under the influence" is usually defined as any measurable BAC. Mouthwash could place you under the influence.

I'm not trying to split hairs here - just reciting the facts of the matter upon which some cop may take action. Based on that a person can make their own decision what the risks are. But intentionally withholding facts is unethical (and if I was a licensed attorney probably would be both illegal and a violation of the Canon of Ethics). An adviser/explainer/guide's responsibility is to lay out all the available information so that the advisee/explainee/guidee can make what is so often referred to as an "informed decision".

stay safe.

I do not recall that I have ever written that one must not imbibe alcoholic beverages while carrying a firearm. If I have not stated it before I do so now: if you get busted for reckless handling of a firearm please do not whine to me about you not knowing it was a possibility.

Sadly I have lost my easy access to Lexis/Nexis so am greatly constrained in Shepardizing cases of reckless handling of a firearm to see which ones have any relationship to being under the influence of alcohol or other drugs. If anybody would like to sponsor a pay-as-you-go plan please let me know via PM.

stay safe.

 

[wrearick]

Does anybody realize how discouraging it is to have to quote yourself as the appropriate response to the above?



I do not recall that I have ever written that one must not imbibe alcoholic beverages while carrying a firearm. If I have not stated it before I do so now: if you get busted for reckless handling of a firearm please do not whine to me about you not knowing it was a possibility.

Sadly I have lost my easy access to Lexis/Nexis so am greatly constrained in Shepardizing cases of reckless handling of a firearm to see which ones have any relationship to being under the influence of alcohol or other drugs. If anybody would like to sponsor a pay-as-you-go plan please let me know via PM.

stay safe.

Skidmark, you make a good point and as I looked at the actual VA Code, I noted that the wording is prohibits consumption while CCing and in the previous paragraph says:

A. Any person permitted to carry a concealed handgun who is under the influence of alcohol or illegal drugs while carrying such handgun in a public place is guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor.

It does not limit the offense to handling the firearm while under the influence....carrying alone (while under the influence) is sufficient.

 

[JamesCanby]

Thank you for the clarification and presenting the actual statute that would apply. https://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-308.012

That being said, the statute only applies to those permitted to carry a concealed handgun, so it would not apply to those who are openly carrying without a permit. Another one of those wonderful laws, the more you try to be an upstanding citizen the more traps the government puts out for you.

Yes, the Commonwealth of Virginia legislature creates many fascinating laws. In this case, one could walk into a restaurant that serves alcoholic beverages while openly carrying a firearm and imbibe the beverages of his/her choice. If he or she is carrying concealed, they may NOT imbibe.

The only rationale I can think of is that if the server is able to see an openly carried firearm, they may be more cautious in dispensing more than one or two libations to the carrier. On the other hand, since a server cannot see a concealed firearm and thereby enforce arbitrary limits on the carrier, the law imposes the responsibility on the concealed carrier to NOT imbibe at all.

BTW -- the Commonwealth does not require ANY permit to openly carry.

 

[utbagpiper]

Although many puritans drank way more than we do nowadays.

It often wasn't safe to drink the water for various reasons.

Some decades back I had to do a little research on the courtship habits of Colonial Era, New England Puritans for a college paper.

Right after making bread (without packaged yeast available), making beer was one of the most important homemaking skills for a Puritan housewife.

During long, cold, New England winters, beer provided upwards of 30% of daily caloric intake if I remember not completely inaccurately.

A proper Puritan woman would put up a batch or two of beer early in her pregnancy in preparation for her "wailing party", or what we would call labor and delivery.

Drinking the old, homemade beer was a home remedy to stimulate increased milk production in new mothers.

That all said, bear in mind that among Puritans, drunkenness was both a sin and a grave social faux paus. And the beers made at home tended to have lower alcohol content and higher nutritional value that most commercial brews today.

Going from memory so no citations available.

Charles

 

[HPmatt]

Thank goodness the Puritans only settled New England - the Episcopalian cavaliers settled Old Dominion.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[sudden valley gunner]

I've read the entire thread and no one seems to have said -- unless I missed it -- that if you DO have to use your firearm AND you have been drinking alcoholic beverages, the prosecuting attorney is going to have a field day characterizing you as a person "under the influence" and therefore your judgement was impaired. Remember that in Virginia -- the state under consideration in the OP's posting -- does not identify a specific BAC in the statute for "being under the influence."

I will not risk consuming alcoholic beverages while carrying and having that situation become an issue in any legal situation.

Thats true and a zealous prosecutor out to get ya more than likely would use that in building a case against you.

I think though the argument is about the "properness" to do so. Some say nay because of what others think, others say why not its part of my normal routine, and we don't drink to excess.

It could be us arguers are sliding past each other on slightly different but related points.

 

[sudden valley gunner]

It often wasn't safe to drink the water for various reasons.

Even had kiddie beer!

I would bet their tolerance was tremendously higher than ours today.