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My complaint to the Pueblo Colorado Sheriff.

Hamans-gallows

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2012
Messages
62
Location
Colorado Springs
To the Pueblo County Sheriff Department RE: complaint

[Personal info redacted]

Invoved employees: Deputy [redacted] and three other officers.

Date of incident: 01-20-15

Time of incident 10:00 AM

Details of allegation:

I was waiting for my fiancée while she was [redacted] at the [location redacted] near Purcell and Hwy 50 in Pueblo West. I decided to take a walk while I was waiting. I was openly carrying a handgun as is my custom. I walked toward Purcell but was getting cold, so I returned to the car to put on an additional layer of clothing. I then walked over to the Loaf and Jug on Purcell when I heard a voice behind me saying "Hold it right there, put up your hands." which I did and then turned around.

I was soon surrounded by four deputies and contacted by deputy [redacted.] Deputy [redacted] asked me if he could remove my handgun from its holster to check and see if it was loaded. I told him that no, I didn't want him to do that, and that it was indeed loaded. He did not push the issue. I asked Deputy [redacted] if I was suspected of being involved in some sort of crime, and he said "No." I calmly and politely asked if I was being detained and he said that I was not, so I said "I would like to be on my way." Deputy redacted] told me that I may not leave. I will say that he was polite and calm throughout the entire encounter, and I appreciate that. Deputy [redacted] asked me for ID, and I politely said that I am not required to show ID if I am not suspected of a crime and again asked to be on my way. I told the deputies what I was doing, and why I was out walking around. They insisted that I provide ID to "Be sure that I wasn't a felon." I eventually relented and provided my driver's license and concealed handgun permit.

After they checked me for warrants and criminal history they allowed me to leave.

I will say that they never acted rude or hostile to me, and I do appreciate that, however, I would ask you to make your deputies aware that merely carrying a handgun is not grounds to detain someone and intimidate them into showing ID. If Deputy [redacted] had a reasonable suspicion that I had, was committing, or was about to commit a crime he would have lawful authority to detain and ID me.

I was happy to tell them why I was out walking around, but the conversation became non-consensual when I twice asked if I could be on my way, and they did not allow me to leave.

Thank you for your consideration of this complaint. I am not asking that anyone be disciplined, but that deputies be made aware that they must have RAS in order to detain and ID someone against their will.

I will add that I have been openly carrying a handgun regularly for almost three years, mostly in Colorado Springs, and at times in other areas of Colorado and Kansas, and have never had any police question me. I have on rare occasions had an officer drive by and look me over, but in each case I smiled and waved at them and they waved back.
 

Maverick9

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2013
Messages
1,404
Location
Mid-atlantic
Why not call for a sergeant to come to the scene? Generally they will back off from non-legal demands. Did you run a recorder? If not, do so in the future. You were unlawfully held for one thing. If they say you're not being detained they should not be telling you 'don't leave'. Glad you weren't shot.
 

fjpro2a

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 27, 2010
Messages
280
Location
North Carolina
Keep up the good work

I applaud everything you did. In my opinion, you handled it perfectly from beginning to end. A lot of responses will probably be - you should have done more, - you should have done less, - you should have done this or that sooner, - you should have done this or that later, - etc, etc.

Thank you for your consideration of this complaint. I am not asking that anyone be disciplined, but that deputies be made aware that they must have RAS in order to detain and ID someone against their will
.

To me, this is a statement from a "classy" open carrier. It shows levelheadedness. You were not asking that the officers be disciplined in the normal way we think of the word, but rather that they be made aware of what they were doing.

Excellent!!

Let us know if you receive a response. That response will tell a lot.
 

davidmcbeth

Banned
Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Messages
16,167
Location
earth's crust
What do you think the response would have been if you had not caved and maintained your refusal to give your ID to them?

I was at a public bldg just yesterday and a cop demanded ID. I refused telling him to shove his request where the sun don't shine.

He was ready to sit there and puff out his chest when another just informed him "Don't waste your time, it's THAT guy" .. and I continued on with my business w/o showing ID.

So it only took about 5 contacts with this group of guys before it started to click that they cannot intimidate me into doing things that I cannot be required to do.

One can be nice and just say "no thanks" but I don't think that offers any incentive for them to discontinue the process...me? I shoot of a host of obscenities and cursing.

Imagine a cop who wishes to ask folks for ID , people just walking down a public street.
Scenario A has people politely saying no.
Scenario B has people cursing them out for five minutes for even asking.
Which scenario would more likely result in the cop's discontinuance of asking for ID.
I think scenario B.

Scenario B works for me, from my experience.
 
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rightwinglibertarian

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2014
Messages
827
Location
Seattle WA
I was soon surrounded by four deputies and contacted by deputy [redacted.] Deputy [redacted] asked me if he could remove my handgun from its holster to check and see if it was loaded. I told him that no, I didn't want him to do that, and that it was indeed loaded. He did not push the issue.
That much is good. The officer had at least some sense

I asked Deputy [redacted] if I was suspected of being involved in some sort of crime, and he said "No." I calmly and politely asked if I was being detained and he said that I was not, so I said "I would like to be on my way." Deputy redacted] told me that I may not leave.

Yes you could. He said you were not being detained, yet refusing to let you go is indeed detainment. Especially as he also said you were not suspected of a crime

I will say that he was polite and calm throughout the entire encounter, and I appreciate that. Deputy [redacted] asked me for ID, and I politely said that I am not required to show ID if I am not suspected of a crime and again asked to be on my way. I told the deputies what I was doing, and why I was out walking around. They insisted that I provide ID to "Be sure that I wasn't a felon." I eventually relented and provided my driver's license and concealed handgun permit.After they checked me for warrants and criminal history they allowed me to leave.

innocent until proven guilty. Now you may well have to show them your permit under CO law and a resident of that state will be able to confirm that, but certainly not your ID

I am not asking that anyone be disciplined, but that deputies be made aware that they must have RAS in order to detain and ID someone against their will.
Whyever not? he committed a crime against you. I'd post his name and badge number right here as well as on post to the PDs FB page. Name and shame.
 

Wstar425

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 1, 2014
Messages
570
Location
Tomahawk and Abbotsford, Wi.
Surrounded by four LEO, told to put up your hands, told you're not detained but can't leave. Sounds detained to me.

While carrying concealed after a short open carry walk.

Way too much fail here.

I know each state is somewhat different. We have to show ID if asked when concealed, but not if you are open, as no permit/license for that. So, a gray area how do they know to ask for license if you are concealed. When he said you are not detained, stop talking and start walking.

You state may be, and probably is, different. Therein lies a huge part of the probem.

I don't swear but politely, adamant, concisely, and consistently refuse to participate.
 

F350

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2012
Messages
941
Location
The High Plains of Wyoming
Surrounded by four LEO, told to put up your hands, told you're not detained but can't leave. Sounds detained to me.

SCOTUS has ruled that the cops do not have to say "You are detained"; by shear force of numbers, surrounded by 4 deputies is enough for a reasonable person to believe they are detained, therefore you are detained. These deputies were playing the "I didn't SAY you are detained therefore this is a voluntary contact and you have no constitutional protections" game, I have no doubt this is taught in cop school. OK class this is how you defeat that pesky Constitution thingy.......

Plus you are in Colorado Article II of the state constitution is the bill of rights...

Section 13. Right to bear arms. The right of no person to keep and bear arms in defense of his home, person and property, or in aid of the civil power when thereto legally summoned, shall be called in question; but nothing herein contained shall be construed to justify the practice of carrying concealed weapons.

I do believe those fine deputies were in no doubt questioning your right to bear arms; on the old Colorado Open Carry board there were a couple members who got $10,000+ settlements for just slightly more than what you went through. Each person makes their own decisions, but I would have NEVER relented and shown ID and when first told I was not being detained would have just gone about my business with no further questions.
 
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Primus

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 24, 2013
Messages
3,939
Location
United States
I applaud everything you did. In my opinion, you handled it perfectly from beginning to end. A lot of responses will probably be - you should have done more, - you should have done less, - you should have done this or that sooner, - you should have done this or that later, - etc, etc.

Thank you for your consideration of this complaint. I am not asking that anyone be disciplined, but that deputies be made aware that they must have RAS in order to detain and ID someone against their will
.

To me, this is a statement from a "classy" open carrier. It shows levelheadedness. You were not asking that the officers be disciplined in the normal way we think of the word, but rather that they be made aware of what they were doing.

Excellent!!

Let us know if you receive a response. That response will tell a lot.
+1
 

rightwinglibertarian

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2014
Messages
827
Location
Seattle WA
Section 13. Right to bear arms. The right of no person to keep and bear arms in defense of his home, person and property, or in aid of the civil power when thereto legally summoned, shall be called in question; but nothing herein contained shall be construed to justify the practice of carrying concealed weapons.

*blinks* how long has that unconstitutional so-called law been on the books?
 

F350

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2012
Messages
941
Location
The High Plains of Wyoming
Quote Originally Posted by F350 View Post
Section 13. Right to bear arms. The right of no person to keep and bear arms in defense of his home, person and property, or in aid of the civil power when thereto legally summoned, shall be called in question; but nothing herein contained shall be construed to justify the practice of carrying concealed weapons.

*blinks* how long has that unconstitutional so-called law been on the books?

Since 1876 when the state constitution was adopted. A time when honest men carried their sidearms in the open and concealed carry was reserved for the card sharp, pimp and back alley thug.
 

F350

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2012
Messages
941
Location
The High Plains of Wyoming

No, no! It doesn't show class. It shows weak and obsequious compliance to unlawful authority. It encourages the overreaching tyrants to continue this type of behavior on the next guy. Those that are the target of their tyranny don't even want them punished!?!? Without, at least an audio recording, its his word against theirs that this even happened. This was just a lost opportunity to educate a few arrogant bullies about the law and their limitations under it. In a situation like this, compliance equals approval. If you disagree with me, answer one question. What good did his knowledge of the law do him? Would he have been any worse off if the was as ignorant of the law as a schoolboy?

I concur; the only things missing in this encounter were the black leather trench coat, black fedora and the proper accent "PAPERS!! You vill show your identity papers".
 

BB62

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Aug 17, 2006
Messages
4,069
Location
Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
no, no! It doesn't show class. It shows weak and obsequious compliance to unlawful authority. It encourages the overreaching tyrants to continue this type of behavior on the next guy. Those that are the target of their tyranny don't even want them punished!?!? Without, at least an audio recording, its his word against theirs that this even happened. This was just a lost opportunity to educate a few arrogant bullies about the law and their limitations under it. In a situation like this, compliance equals approval...
Agree, agree, agree.
 

davidmcbeth

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Jan 14, 2012
Messages
16,167
Location
earth's crust

No, no! It doesn't show class. It shows weak and obsequious compliance to unlawful authority. It encourages the overreaching tyrants to continue this type of behavior on the next guy. Those that are the target of their tyranny don't even want them punished!?!? Without, at least an audio recording, its his word against theirs that this even happened. This was just a lost opportunity to educate a few arrogant bullies about the law and their limitations under it. In a situation like this, compliance equals approval. If you disagree with me, answer one question. What good did his knowledge of the law do him? Would he have been any worse off if the was as ignorant of the law as a schoolboy?

OP is free to write another letter if he wishes; he was just being "overly civil". It does come off as a slave asking for his master not to whip him so much.
 

rightwinglibertarian

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2014
Messages
827
Location
Seattle WA
Since 1876 when the state constitution was adopted. A time when honest men carried their sidearms in the open and concealed carry was reserved for the card sharp, pimp and back alley thug.

While it is a violation of the second Amendment, I can see the reason behind it. Plus I wouldnt CC anyway. Either open or not at all
 

F350

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2012
Messages
941
Location
The High Plains of Wyoming
While it is a violation of the second Amendment, I can see the reason behind it. Plus I wouldnt CC anyway. Either open or not at all

I OCed the 4 years we lived in Colorado, can't tell you the number of people that thanked me for open carrying, every day folks, cops, the manager at our bank, shop owners......

We were out sight seeing in the mountains and stopped in a little town for lunch. While we were eating a guy rode up on a horse in full cowboy outfit (hat, vest, chaps, boots and high riding 6 gun rig) tied the horse to a parking meter, dropped a coin and went inside for lunch. From the dust on the horse's legs and the worn condition of his "rig" he had to be a real working cowboy. It was memorable.
 
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teddyearp

Regular Member
Joined
May 10, 2010
Messages
67
Location
Pinetop, AZ
Imagine a cop who wishes to ask folks for ID , people just walking down a public street.
Scenario A has people politely saying no.
Scenario B has people cursing them out for five minutes for even asking.
Which scenario would more likely result in the cop's discontinuance of asking for ID.
I think scenario B.

Scenario B works for me, from my experience.

I hope you're kidding.
 
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