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MSP legal update NEW INFO!

TheQ

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 2, 2010
Messages
3,379
Location
Lansing, Michigan
I either don't understand or think this section needs to be changed. An individual without a CPL or otherwise exempted (E.G. a police officer) who transports a pistol in a vehicle to an area where he or she intended to "open carry" may be in violation of MCL 750.227. The way I read that is that O.C. is not considered a "lawful purpose" under MCL 750.231a.

Notice that statute has the word "includes". This means any purpose that is lawful (ex: it isn't defined as being illegal in any law). The word "includes" doesn't mean "these and only these".

Of course, lawyers will debate over what exactly the statute means...
 

scot623

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 2, 2009
Messages
1,421
Location
Eastpointe, Michigan, USA
It would be my suggestion that once this document is published, we ask one of our friendly legislators in Lansing to submit it to the AG's office for legal review and a "stamp of approval".
 

Bailenforcer

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2009
Messages
1,077
Location
City
Thank you!!

And Thanks to Sergeant Aimee Maike for writing the update and responding to Autosurgeon.


Mr. Ranson,

I am the author of the Legal Update you you attached to your e-mail. Thank you for taking the time to confirm the validity of the document. It has not been posted on our MSP Legal Update Web site as the document has not been finalized. I will be making a slight change on page two under the MCL 28.425o section to accurately reflect that casino parking lots are included in the pistol free zones. Once approved through my chain of command, it will be assigned a Legal Update number and posted on the internet.

Sincerely,


Sergeant Aimee Maike
Training and Standards Division
Michigan State Police
7426 N. Canal Road
Lansing, MI 48913
(517) 636-6031
 

detroit_fan

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2009
Messages
1,172
Location
Monroe, Michigan, USA
It would be my suggestion that once this document is published, we ask one of our friendly legislators in Lansing to submit it to the AG's office for legal review and a "stamp of approval".

Before the election or after? I know the republican AG candidate has an A nra rating, but the democrat has no rating, they may not rule in our favor on some of these things.
 

PDinDetroit

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 20, 2009
Messages
2,328
Location
SE, Michigan, USA
Please convey to Sergeant Aimee Maike my thanks in putting this together. Overall, it is a great document and just requires a few "tweaks" to make it SOLID.

Here are my changes:

1. Page 1, "Open carry of firearms" Section: Text in question - "You will not find a law that states that it legal to openly carry a firearm." A case could be made that the Michigan Constitution Article 1 Section 6 comprises the law that allows Open Carry, as Concealed Carry is illegal without as license so Open Carry would be legal based upon the Michigan Constitution Article 1 Section 6.

2. Page 1, "Open carry of firearms" Section: Text in question - "A depository financial institution (e.g., bank or credit union)". This is missing the complete definition of MCL 750.234d (1) (a) - "A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution."

3. Page 1, "Open carry of firearms" Section: Text in question - "A CPL holder may carry a pistol concealed or visible." I would remove the word "visible" and replace it with "openly in a holster".

4. Page 1, "Open carry of firearms" Section: Text in question - "A private property owner has the right to prohibit individuals from carrying a visible or concealed pistol on his or her property." I would change this to be "... carrying a firearm concealed or openly on his or her property". This better covers "Long Gun OC" and Pistol is defined as a Firearm in MI according to MCL 28.421 (just a subset of the superset).

5. Page 2, "Transporting firearms" Section: Text in question - "One such exception allows for transportation of pistols in a vehicle for a “lawful purpose."". I would change this to be "One such exception allows for transportation of pistols in a vehicle for a “lawful purpose", not all "lawful purposes" are defined in MCL 750.231a.".

6. Page 2, "Transporting firearms" Section: Text in question - "There is no way to “open carry” a pistol in a vehicle. An individual, without a CPL or otherwise exempted (e.g., a police officer), who transports a pistol in a vehicle to an area where he or she intended to “open carry” may be in violation of MCL 750.227." I would remove this text, as the information presented in that section already addresses transportation of firearms properly, with exceptions to MCL 750.227 noted in MCL 750.231a.

7. Page 2, "Carrying concealed weapons" Section: Text in question - "MCL 750.227 also makes it a felony for a person to carry a concealed pistol on or about his or her person." I would change this to "MCL 750.227 also makes it a felony for a person to carry a concealed pistol on or about his or her person without a Concealed Pistol License (CPL)."

8. Page 2, "Firearms Act" Section: Text in question - "Public or private day care center". This is missing the complete definition of MCL 28.425o (1) (b) - "A public or private child care center or day care center, public or private child caring institution, or public or private child placing agency."

9. Global Change: Change "visible pistol" to "pistol carried openly in a holster".

10. Should Federal PFZ Areas be described in this document as well or leave these out of the MSP Update?

11. Should Long Gun OC be described in this document as well or leave this out of the MSP Update?
 

Michigander

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
4,818
Location
Mulligan's Valley
However this information is used when training new officers and retraining current ones so it still is a great benefit.

Also the more things like this that are out there from various agencies the less likely it is that police officers will bother a person OCing.

I agree with both of you on this.

It is a great benefit, but at the same time, the young cops know they don't know as much, and are still fresh enough out of the academy to be afraid of the wrath of their supervisors and judges. They also are aware of the boundaries of a Terry stop better. Not that older cops don't normally know these things, but in the more criminally run departments, it is the older cops that can be counted on to criminally detain and/or assault us, and these older badged felons are the guys who won't give a third of a damn about a legal update, because they merely make **** up as they go. The young ones tend to merely stand around and watch the older ones abuse people, knowing that they don't want to be involved because they'd rather make sure they stay employed.

It is however an entirely different issue from the point, which is that I'm incredibly happy that you're successfully working with the source of police procedures in this state. Good goin'. :D
 

PDinDetroit

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 20, 2009
Messages
2,328
Location
SE, Michigan, USA
I either don't understand or think this section needs to be changed. An individual without a CPL or otherwise exempted (E.G. a police officer) who transports a pistol in a vehicle to an area where he or she intended to "open carry" may be in violation of MCL 750.227. The way I read that is that O.C. is not considered a "lawful purpose" under MCL 750.231a.

I think that whole paragraph needs to go away, see my changes that I proposed (item #6).
 
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Michigander

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
4,818
Location
Mulligan's Valley
Non-residents may legally possess a firearm more than 30 inches in length in Michigan. In order for a non-resident to possess a pistol in Michigan, he or she must either be licensed his by or her state of residence to carry a concealed pistol or be licensed by his or her state of residence to purchase, carry, or transport a pistol. The ownership of property in Michigan does not qualify a non-resident to possess a pistol in Michigan.

I don't have the laws in front of me, nor do I have time to look them up right now, but my understanding is that a non resident license (Utah, Florida, etc...) to carry concealed would qualify a person from, say, Wisconsin to carry the same ways a Michigan resident of a registered handgun can carry.

I can dig up the specifics later, or if someone else can rattle off specifics of why I'm right or wrong in the mean time, that would be good too...
 
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detroit_fan

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2009
Messages
1,172
Location
Monroe, Michigan, USA
Non-residents may legally possess a firearm more than 30 inches in length in Michigan. In order for a non-resident to possess a pistol in Michigan, he or she must either be licensed his by or her state of residence to carry a concealed pistol or be licensed by his or her state of residence to purchase, carry, or transport a pistol. The ownership of property in Michigan does not qualify a non-resident to possess a pistol in Michigan.

I don't have the laws in front of me, nor do I have time to look them up right now, but my understanding is that a non resident license (Utah, Florida, etc...) to carry concealed would qualify a person from, say, Wisconsin to carry the same ways a Michigan resident of a registered handgun can carry.

I can dig up the specifics later, or if someone else can rattle off specifics of why I'm right or wrong in the mean time, that would be good too...

Nope. Michigan says a permit holder must be a resident of the state in order to carry here. Not sure how up to date this map is, but I think its pretty close

http://www.handgunlaw.us/


This is from MSP site-

Non-residents of Michigan wishing to carry a concealed pistol in Michigan:

If you are a non-resident of Michigan with a valid concealed pistol permit from your home state, Michigan will recognize your permit. However, you must carry in conformance with any and all restrictions appearing on the permit. You are subject to Michigan’s concealed pistol law including but not limited to restrictions on where a concealed pistol may be carried. Please review the information provided on this website for further information.

http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,1607,7-123-1591_3503_4654-10957--,00.html
 
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FatboyCykes

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 3, 2009
Messages
942
Location
Warren, Michigan, USA
The law that is cited as a "possible violation" is a CC law, hence I think she's simply referring to there being no OC in a car, that it is in fact CC. But I agree, I posted that as the only major flaw that I found over on MOC.
 

Michigander

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Mulligan's Valley
Nope. Michigan says a permit holder must be a resident of the state in order to carry here. Not sure how up to date this map is, but I think its pretty close

http://www.handgunlaw.us/


This is from MSP site-

Non-residents of Michigan wishing to carry a concealed pistol in Michigan:

If you are a non-resident of Michigan with a valid concealed pistol permit from your home state, Michigan will recognize your permit. However, you must carry in conformance with any and all restrictions appearing on the permit. You are subject to Michigan’s concealed pistol law including but not limited to restrictions on where a concealed pistol may be carried. Please review the information provided on this website for further information.

http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,1607,7-123-1591_3503_4654-10957--,00.html

I know these are the common beliefs, and I am saying they are wrong, based on the wording of the law, if I remember correctly.

As I understand it, a Wisconsin resident with an out of state license can carry openly, but not in any area which is restricted by state law, and on top of that, not even within 1000 feet of a school, due to Federal law. But for carry in the woods and such, it would seem to be just fine. It may be I am wrong about this, but as I recall, this is what the law implies.

I'm at a library studying, and the computers don't want to let me access saved documents on my email. I'll see if I can borrow a laptop from someone, and if I can, I'll post it soon.
 

Venator

Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter
Joined
Jan 10, 2007
Messages
6,462
Location
Lansing area, Michigan, USA
Here is the DRAFT MSP legal update.

Feel free to email suggestions to me and I will bring them up with the Sergeant. That way we are not bombarding from multiple directions.

Transport section needs to change "going to and from" to "in route". These are two different things and can cause confusion in this statute.
 

Michigander

Regular Member
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Aug 24, 2007
Messages
4,818
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Mulligan's Valley
Here is a segment from my hopefully released soon all inclusive guide book on open carrying in Michigan, which will be sold as a fund raising effort. The book is still being reviewed for accuracy. This is a segment of the chapter on out of state people carrying while here. All applicable laws are cited, so if there is any disagreement about the accuracy of my statements, the MCL's can be readily viewed by anyone qualified to interpret them.

And of course I encourage everyone to remember that just because I interpret this as meaning what I am saying, and just because you might as well, it doesn't mean it would work that way in court. That is why it would seem wise to get the MSP to sign off on it, and as was mentioned, the AG's office if possible.






The last option, and only option for residents of states with no carry
licenses or permits whatsoever, is to obtain an out of state license to
CC, such as a Wisconsin or California resident getting a Utah or Florida
permit. MCL 28.422 would appear to render non-resident permits and
licenses useless, until you read MCL 28.432, which specifically exempts
from 28.422’s restrictions US citizens holding a license to carry a
concealed pistol from another state. But concealment is still illegal
without a home state concealed carry license, as all that this does is
satisfy the requirement to have the license to purchase, possess,
transport or carry, (AKA Michigan registration)

So, for example, a Wisconsin resident can’t carry pistols in Michigan
without a license from another state, but an Illinois resident who has a
pistol and a FOID card could come to Michigan and experience a whole lot
of newfound freedom to carry by having the same rights as a Michigan
resident with a registered handgun and no CPL.

Remember, as was covered earlier, if you wish to carry in a restricted
area as defined by MCL 28.425o non residents must either have a resident
license to carry concealed, and can then carry openly, or concealed with
permission (preferably in writing) or get permission to carry openly as a
holder of any state's license to purchase, carry, possess and transport, and
it would seem a Utah or Florida license would satisfy this just fine.

28.422 also requires non residents to possess their licenses while
carrying, and even show them when asked by law enforcement. Since 28.432
exempts concealed carry license holders from 28.422’s stipulations, those
with non resident out of state CC licenses don’t need to show any ID for
OCing, but an out of stater with a license that doesn’t allow concealment
in the state of issuance is required to show the license when asked by law
enforcement.

Remember, if you have an out of state license or permit to carry concealed
and wish to carry concealed in Michigan, MCL 750.231a requires the license
to be from your home state of residence, and it also requires you to
conform to all of the restrictions appearing on the license, but in order
to CC under that license, you must carry in conformance with the
restrictions on it, or have another license without the restrictions. The
license also must fall under the scope of Michigan’s reciprocity
agreements, otherwise it will only allow open carry.
 
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