• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

Lemmo or Rapgood (lawyers especially, or LE) question

EMNofSeattle

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2012
Messages
3,670
Location
S. Kitsap, Washington state
So, are you trying to imply that our 'justice' system is like a football game where:

1) You're on one team.
2) 'They' are on the other team.
3) All the refs are picked from the bench-warmers on 'Their' team.
4) Therefore it's reasonable to assume that those refs are not treating your team fairly.

That's just crazy talk ;)

Do you have any real proof of these outrageous allegations? (Birk!)

What about Birk? keep in mind that not only did SPD conduct a review, but an inquest jury was called and a death inquest was conducted in which average citizens who couldn't come up with a better excuse not to be there were seated to listen to both sides of the argument, one of which was presented by an attorney the Williams family had hired, and that jury couldn't find Birk clearly guilty. (I believe the Inquest was a coroners inquest conducted under RCW 36.24.20 although King County does have a charter government so maybe it's not) remember 4 of 8 jurors ruled that Williams was an imminent threat. also the jury for the inquest board was pulled out of the same pool as trial jurors would, if you can't get a jury to agree on a proceeding with NO criminal penalties then it would be a waste of the county's time and money to prosecute, becuase when you add criminal liability my guess is Birk would be cuising straight to aquittal (and then SVG would be complaining about juries I'm sure, probably will bring up an idea to have "free market" jurors or whatever. The average citizens would be conspiring with the government to let birk go free :banghead:) if brought to trial.

Seattle police covered nothing up, the reports and dash cam video are publically available, King County covered nothing up, they brought birk to inquest in a public venue, using jurors randomly pulled from the community, and with the jurors decision the King County PA decided it was unlikely he could win at trial (meaning he can't prove beyond a reasonable doubt) This is exactly how the system is supposed to work

This is not government shielding an officer, this was the proper decision to make regarding the circumstances under current law.
 
Last edited:

Dave_pro2a

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 28, 2007
Messages
2,132
Location
, ,
What about Birk? keep in mind that not only did SPD conduct a review, but an inquest jury was called and a death inquest was conducted in which average citizens who couldn't come up with a better excuse not to be there were seated to listen to both sides of the argument, one of which was presented by an attorney the Williams family had hired, and that jury couldn't find Birk clearly guilty. (I believe the Inquest was a coroners inquest conducted under RCW 36.24.20 although King County does have a charter government so maybe it's not) remember 4 of 8 jurors ruled that Williams was an imminent threat. also the jury for the inquest board was pulled out of the same pool as trial jurors would, if you can't get a jury to agree on a proceeding with NO criminal penalties then it would be a waste of the county's time and money to prosecute, becuase when you add criminal liability my guess is Birk would be cuising straight to aquittal (and then SVG would be complaining about juries I'm sure, probably will bring up an idea to have "free market" jurors or whatever. The average citizens would be conspiring with the government to let birk go free :banghead:) if brought to trial.

Seattle police covered nothing up, the reports and dash cam video are publically available, King County covered nothing up, they brought birk to inquest in a public venue, using jurors randomly pulled from the community, and with the jurors decision the King County PA decided it was unlikely he could win at trial (meaning he can't prove beyond a reasonable doubt) This is exactly how the system is supposed to work

This is not government shielding an officer, this was the proper decision to make regarding the circumstances under current law.

Blah blah blah, Harris! http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2019160099_harris15m.html
 

END_THE_FED

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2010
Messages
925
Location
Seattle, Washington, USA
Last edited:

deanf

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 25, 2007
Messages
1,789
Location
N47º 12’ x W122º 10’
Writ of Mandamus.

See RCW 7.16

"It may be issued by any court, . . . . to compel the admission (entry in the hospital) of a party (you) to the use and enjoyment of a right (to carry a gun) or office to which the party is entitled, and from which the party is unlawfully precluded (by their violation of preemption) by such inferior tribunal, corporation (the hospital district), board or person."

You are asking the court to compel the hospital district to end their administrative rule against guns which is in violation of state preemption.
 

hermannr

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2011
Messages
2,327
Location
Okanogan Highland
EEEE HAAAA (Squeek, Squeek, Squeek)

Success (I hope!). The squeeking wheel....

Herman,

The hospital administrator has directed the hospital staff to remove the signs and the City Attorney is reviewing the ordinances and drafting an amendatory ordinance to solve the problem.

Alice J. Attwood

Clerk-Treasurer

City of Tonasket
 

sudden valley gunner

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
16,674
Location
Whatcom County
So, are you trying to imply that our 'justice' system is like a football game where:

1) You're on one team.
2) 'They' are on the other team.
3) All the refs are picked from the bench-warmers on 'Their' team.
4) Therefore it's reasonable to assume that those refs are not treating your team fairly.

That's just crazy talk ;)

Do you have any real proof of these outrageous allegations? (Birk!)

It is exactly what I am saying, the system built for civilian protection now protects itself over civilians.

Yes I do have proof, a recording of Bellingham City Prosecutor saying he doesn't see himself ever prosecuting cops.

And an email from my county sheriff saying he won't move toward the prosecutor because the prosecutor is his legal adviser.
 

sudden valley gunner

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
16,674
Location
Whatcom County
What about Birk? keep in mind that not only did SPD conduct a review, but an inquest jury was called and a death inquest was conducted in which average citizens who couldn't come up with a better excuse not to be there were seated to listen to both sides of the argument, one of which was presented by an attorney the Williams family had hired, and that jury couldn't find Birk clearly guilty. (I believe the Inquest was a coroners inquest conducted under RCW 36.24.20 although King County does have a charter government so maybe it's not) remember 4 of 8 jurors ruled that Williams was an imminent threat. also the jury for the inquest board was pulled out of the same pool as trial jurors would, if you can't get a jury to agree on a proceeding with NO criminal penalties then it would be a waste of the county's time and money to prosecute, becuase when you add criminal liability my guess is Birk would be cuising straight to aquittal (and then SVG would be complaining about juries I'm sure, probably will bring up an idea to have "free market" jurors or whatever. The average citizens would be conspiring with the government to let birk go free :banghead:) if brought to trial.

Seattle police covered nothing up, the reports and dash cam video are publically available, King County covered nothing up, they brought birk to inquest in a public venue, using jurors randomly pulled from the community, and with the jurors decision the King County PA decided it was unlikely he could win at trial (meaning he can't prove beyond a reasonable doubt) This is exactly how the system is supposed to work

This is not government shielding an officer, this was the proper decision to make regarding the circumstances under current law.

You mean the grand jury that was handpicked by the prosecutor and were mostly pro cop?

The grand Jury system has been a rubber stamp for prosecutors since FDR he modeled the system after the Nazi system of gleichschaltung. This wasn't a "normal" jury.

Nope I wouldn't whine about complain about juries not convicting anyone, I believe in jury nullification which this wasn't. Birk murdered a man for what? I think you are out of touch with the average citizen.
 

sudden valley gunner

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
16,674
Location
Whatcom County
Success (I hope!). The squeeking wheel....

Herman,

The hospital administrator has directed the hospital staff to remove the signs and the City Attorney is reviewing the ordinances and drafting an amendatory ordinance to solve the problem.

Alice J. Attwood

Clerk-Treasurer

City of Tonasket

Great job Hermannr!

You got the oil applied where it was needed.
 

EMNofSeattle

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2012
Messages
3,670
Location
S. Kitsap, Washington state
You mean the grand jury that was handpicked by the prosecutor and were mostly pro cop?

The grand Jury system has been a rubber stamp for prosecutors since FDR he modeled the system after the Nazi system of gleichschaltung. This wasn't a "normal" jury.

Nope I wouldn't whine about complain about juries not convicting anyone, I believe in jury nullification which this wasn't. Birk murdered a man for what? I think you are out of touch with the average citizen.

It most certainly was not a grand jury, a grand jury is different then an inquest jury. this was an INQUEST jury, the charter government of King County assigns the County Executive the authority to conduct a coroner's inquest consistent with the procedure spelled out in RCW 36.24.20, grand juries are defined under RCW 10.27 and are rarely used in this state, I can't say never, but I've never heard of it done, and Rapgood said the same thing earlier.

The Coroner's jury is a set up in which a judge presides over a hearing involving the prosecuting attorney, attorney for the accused, and an attorney representing the family or next of kin of the slain. So remember William's family did have an attorney to represent them at the inquest, I'm not aware of that happening at a grand jury. Also the inquest is not a "rubber stamp" for prosecution. the inquest does not determine whether criminal charges will be filed, only that the shooting was justified or not.

All represented attorneys submit questions to the judge, the judge and not the attorneys excuse jurors from service, so your narrative about prosecution picked jurors is incorrect.

anyway the procedures in king county for a coroner's jury can be found here for your reading enjoyment.
 

Dave_pro2a

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 28, 2007
Messages
2,132
Location
, ,
It is exactly what I am saying, the system built for civilian protection now protects itself over civilians.

Yes I do have proof, a recording of Bellingham City Prosecutor saying he doesn't see himself ever prosecuting cops.

And an email from my county sheriff saying he won't move toward the prosecutor because the prosecutor is his legal adviser.

Ahhh, when the power and political influence of (police) UNIONS intersect with elected officials (and rolls them over).

Ain't it grand.
 

1245A Defender

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 7, 2009
Messages
4,365
Location
north mason county, Washington, USA
Well,,,

What about Birk? keep in mind that not only did SPD conduct a review, but an inquest jury was called and a death inquest was conducted in which average citizens who couldn't come up with a better excuse not to be there were seated to listen to both sides of the argument, one of which was presented by an attorney the Williams family had hired, and that jury couldn't find Birk clearly guilty. (I believe the Inquest was a coroners inquest conducted under RCW 36.24.20 although King County does have a charter government so maybe it's not) remember 4 of 8 jurors ruled that Williams was an imminent threat. also the jury for the inquest board was pulled out of the same pool as trial jurors would, if you can't get a jury to agree on a proceeding with NO criminal penalties then it would be a waste of the county's time and money to prosecute, becuase when you add criminal liability my guess is Birk would be cuising straight to aquittal (and then SVG would be complaining about juries I'm sure, probably will bring up an idea to have "free market" jurors or whatever. The average citizens would be conspiring with the government to let birk go free :banghead:) if brought to trial.

Seattle police covered nothing up, the reports and dash cam video are publically available, King County covered nothing up, they brought birk to inquest in a public venue, using jurors randomly pulled from the community, and with the jurors decision the King County PA decided it was unlikely he could win at trial (meaning he can't prove beyond a reasonable doubt) This is exactly how the system is supposed to work

This is not government shielding an officer, this was the proper decision to make regarding the circumstances under current law.

You mean the grand jury that was handpicked by the prosecutor and were mostly pro cop?

The grand Jury system has been a rubber stamp for prosecutors since FDR he modeled the system after the Nazi system of gleichschaltung. This wasn't a "normal" jury.

Nope I wouldn't whine about complain about juries not convicting anyone, I believe in jury nullification which this wasn't. Birk murdered a man for what? I think you are out of touch with the average citizen.

Well thank you...
You have managed to find the Lawfull justification used by the Seattle Police to MURDER a citizen, but get off scott free!!

see you in the morning....
 

sudden valley gunner

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
16,674
Location
Whatcom County
It most certainly was not a grand jury, a grand jury is different then an inquest jury. this was an INQUEST jury, the charter government of King County assigns the County Executive the authority to conduct a coroner's inquest consistent with the procedure spelled out in RCW 36.24.20, grand juries are defined under RCW 10.27 and are rarely used in this state, I can't say never, but I've never heard of it done, and Rapgood said the same thing earlier.

The Coroner's jury is a set up in which a judge presides over a hearing involving the prosecuting attorney, attorney for the accused, and an attorney representing the family or next of kin of the slain. So remember William's family did have an attorney to represent them at the inquest, I'm not aware of that happening at a grand jury. Also the inquest is not a "rubber stamp" for prosecution. the inquest does not determine whether criminal charges will be filed, only that the shooting was justified or not.

All represented attorneys submit questions to the judge, the judge and not the attorneys excuse jurors from service, so your narrative about prosecution picked jurors is incorrect.

anyway the procedures in king county for a coroner's jury can be found here for your reading enjoyment.


They function pretty much the same. They have pretty much become tools of the prosecutor.

Either way they weaseled out prosecuting a murderer, you think the average citizen would have not made it to court and not been tried by that prosecutor. The prosecutor could have still chose to pursue charges against Birk, he didn't.

Fact Ian Birk murdered someone in cold Blood and he got away with it because he is a member of the punitive class. And then in trying to get away with murder he committed more crimes like perjury, where are those charges? Prosecutor and the cop loving members of the inquest jury protected their elite. His only punishment, they took away his license to kill.




I will stop posting here about it, since this isn't the issue of this thread.
 
Last edited:

Vitaeus

Regular Member
Joined
May 30, 2010
Messages
596
Location
Bremerton, Washington
How many folks have run afoul of the "Justice" system and ended up being found guilty of obstruction or perjury, but none of the original primary charges? If i recall correctly Birk was on record as changing his story multiple times during the investigation.
 

Dave_pro2a

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 28, 2007
Messages
2,132
Location
, ,
How many folks have run afoul of the "Justice" system and ended up being found guilty of obstruction or perjury, but none of the original primary charges? If i recall correctly Birk was on record as changing his story multiple times during the investigation.


LEO are well practiced testiliars.
 
Last edited:

amlevin

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2007
Messages
5,937
Location
North of Seattle, Washington, USA
How many folks have run afoul of the "Justice" system and ended up being found guilty of obstruction or perjury, but none of the original primary charges? If i recall correctly Birk was on record as changing his story multiple times during the investigation.

Only "Story" that counts is the one given under oath. Changing stories can be used though by the "other" side to impeach the testimony. Still, it's not an official "Lie" until it's told under oath. The rest is just "noise".
 

sudden valley gunner

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
16,674
Location
Whatcom County
Only "Story" that counts is the one given under oath. Changing stories can be used though by the "other" side to impeach the testimony. Still, it's not an official "Lie" until it's told under oath. The rest is just "noise".

Read Brady vs. Maryland. Police "stories" told on the reports that are lies are perjury....unfortunately Washington State cop apologist culture lets them get away with it. http://www.seattlepi.com/news/article/Cops-who-lie-don-t-always-lose-jobs-1262936.php

Or this government study...https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/181241.pdf
 

amlevin

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2007
Messages
5,937
Location
North of Seattle, Washington, USA
Read Brady vs. Maryland. Police "stories" told on the reports that are lies are perjury....

Well DUH! How many States have the following statement at the bottom of their Citations and Police Reports?

"“I CERTIFY (OR DECLARE) UNDER PENALTY OF PERJURY
UNDER THE LAWS OF THE STATE OF xxxxxxxxxx THAT THE FOREGOING IS TRUE AND CORRECT""

Like I said, it's not an official "lie" until they do so in either sworn court testimony or on a report that they have signed the "affirmation" that it is the truth.
 

sudden valley gunner

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
16,674
Location
Whatcom County
Well DUH! How many States have the following statement at the bottom of their Citations and Police Reports?

"“I CERTIFY (OR DECLARE) UNDER PENALTY OF PERJURY
UNDER THE LAWS OF THE STATE OF xxxxxxxxxx THAT THE FOREGOING IS TRUE AND CORRECT""

Like I said, it's not an official "lie" until they do so in either sworn court testimony or on a report that they have signed the "affirmation" that it is the truth.

Well you didn't say exactly that now. So I clarified it and backed it up with cites.
 

Dave_pro2a

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 28, 2007
Messages
2,132
Location
, ,
To totally misquote Mark Twain:

"There are lies, damn liars, and even worse there are LEO, lawyers and judges."
 
Last edited:
Top