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I 594 Loop hole

Jeff Hayes

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Godspyro over at Spokane Gun Trader (SGT) asked a good question today.

"9.41.010
(9) "Firearm" means a weapon or device from which a projectile or projectiles may be fired by an explosive such as gunpowder.
(10) "Gun" has the same meaning as firearm.

If a "firearm" is missing a bolt, slide etc it would not be capable of fireing a projectile and would not be concidered a firearm per state law correct?"

I am thinking Godspyro may be correct since federal law does not prohibit selling a firearm if the sale was between private individuals that are both residents of Washington. No federal laws would be broken by selling two halves of a firearm in two separate transactions. I am also thinking that if my machined chunk of metal/plastic is incapable of firing projectiles then it does not meet the strict definition of a firearm under Washington State law I would not be buying a firearm and would not need to go through an FFL.

I am also thinking I would not want to be the test case.

Just to be clear I am open carrying as I type this. Blaze away.


http://www.spokaneguntrader.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=89019&p=389538#p389538
 
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Grim_Night

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By that logic, it would be the same as selling a handgun with the barrel removed. Because without the single piece barrel and breech block, the handgun would be incapable of discharging a projectile. And the barrel and breech block by itself is incapable of discharging a projectile. The individual pieces of a firearm are not capable of discharging a projectile. Is this a case of the whole being greater then the sum of it's parts?
 

Dave_pro2a

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"Structuring" or "Intent."

Take your pick, roll the dice and take your chances.
 

Jeff Hayes

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Interesting....

Federal law definition of firearm:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/921



Now, clearly the Washington state legislature was not interesting in using the same definition because the RCW definition of firearm is:

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41.010



1. There is no mention of a "device" in Federal law. Devices in RCW include such things as powder actuated nail guns and marine signaling 12 gauge flare guns (which the state has no interest in enforcing retail stores who are selling these "firearms" at retail in violation of I-594 even though selling two or more of these devices without a background check is a felony).

2. There is no mention of the frame or receiver only in RCW.

Now....if you sold or transferred both the frame/receiver and all the other parts of a firearm together in the same transaction, I think that constructive possession might be your problem.

I agree that if you purchased a disassembled firearm from me that would likely not fly. I was thinking more along the lines of purchasing a stripped 1911 or AR lower from Mr. X and an upper from Mr.Y and a bolt carrier group from my local gun smith. Or a 1911 frame from Mr. X, a slide and barrel from Mr. Y and a parts kit from Nighthawk.
 

Grim_Night

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I agree that if you purchased a disassembled firearm from me that would likely not fly. I was thinking more along the lines of purchasing a stripped 1911 or AR lower from Mr. X and an upper from Mr.Y and a bolt carrier group from my local gun smith. Or a 1911 frame from Mr. X, a slide and barrel from Mr. Y and a parts kit from Nighthawk.

At that point, would the completed firearm require a serial number? You've basically taken parts from multiple different weapons and parts that were never attached to a weapon to create a completed firearm. You did it yourself for your own personal use.
 

Jeff Hayes

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I think a much more common scenario would be John Doe selling both a 1911 frame...and the slide+barrel "separately"...claiming, "nope, not a firearm" according to WA RCW.[/QUOTE]


I am pretty sure that would not fly.

But me buying a 1911 frame from you and a slide from Jim and a barrel from Bill would be IMHO perfectly lawful under current Washington state law. Just as it would be perfectly lawful for you top sell the barrel to Bill and the slide to Jim.

Not suggesting we do this by any means, this is a conversation about the law as it is written.
 

Jeff Hayes

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At that point, would the completed firearm require a serial number? You've basically taken parts from multiple different weapons and parts that were never attached to a weapon to create a completed firearm. You did it yourself for your own personal use.

If you manufacture a firearm for your personal use serial numbers are not required. You can purchase an 80% AR lower finish the machine work, buy an upper, parts kit bolt carrier group and assemble it no serial numbers are required.
 

Grim_Night

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If you manufacture a firearm for your personal use serial numbers are not required. You can purchase an 80% AR lower finish the machine work, buy an upper, parts kit bolt carrier group and assemble it no serial numbers are required.

I understand that. I was talking about say taking parts from multiple different already existing firearms and putting them together into a new totally different firearm. Such as in your example here.

But me buying a 1911 frame from you and a slide from Jim and a barrel from Bill would be IMHO perfectly lawful under current Washington state law. Just as it would be perfectly lawful for you top sell the barrel to Bill and the slide to Jim.

Or this.

I agree that if you purchased a disassembled firearm from me that would likely not fly. I was thinking more along the lines of purchasing a stripped 1911 or AR lower from Mr. X and an upper from Mr.Y and a bolt carrier group from my local gun smith. Or a 1911 frame from Mr. X, a slide and barrel from Mr. Y and a parts kit from Nighthawk.
 

MSG Laigaie

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Well...according to Federal law only the frame or receiver is the firearm, but not according to RCW - only the entire device or weapon from which a projectile is fired - So....

I just purchased a receiver for a mossberg shotgun. It was an extended bolt receiver ment to modify a tube mag to a box/drum mag. It was a serialized receiver, and as such had to be shipped to an FFL and of course, a bloody background check (in which I was delayed AGAIN). It was only a bag of parts, incapable of firing a twelve G round, but alas, the batf said "IT"S A GUN".

If you manufacture a firearm for your personal use serial numbers are not required. You can purchase an 80% AR lower finish the machine work, buy an upper, parts kit bolt carrier group and assemble it no serial numbers are required.

All the above is Truth! One caveat is, you cannot sell the fruit of your labor. It is yours and you cannot transfer it.
 

Jeff Hayes

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I just purchased a receiver for a mossberg shotgun. It was an extended bolt receiver ment to modify a tube mag to a box/drum mag. It was a serialized receiver, and as such had to be shipped to an FFL and of course, a bloody background check (in which I was delayed AGAIN). It was only a bag of parts, incapable of firing a twelve G round, but alas, the batf said "IT"S A GUN".



All the above is Truth! One caveat is, you cannot sell the fruit of your labor. It is yours and you cannot transfer it.

My understanding is that you can not manufacture a firearm with the intent of selling it but you can sell it at some point in the future without encountering a legal problem. I am guessing 3 days after completion would be way too soon but 3 years would be OK who knows where that line might be drawn by LE or the courts.
 

Dave_pro2a

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You guys realize they aren't even willing to state how the law will be enforced. The can arrest anyone they want to... as a test case.

Their budget is bigger. And the cops, prosecutor and judge all work for the same team.
 

Jeff Hayes

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Unfortunately this law has provided the springboard and momentum for the same idiots to get more horrible laws passed through the unconstitutional initiative system. I do not believe in a democratic system of government - the general population cannot be trusted with 100% of the legislative process from cradle to grave.

Article IV, Section 4 of the Constitution guarantees us a republican form of government. IMHO initiatives at a state level violate the Constitution.
 

sudden valley gunner

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Unfortunately this law has provided the springboard and momentum for the same idiots to get more horrible laws passed through the unconstitutional initiative system. I do not believe in a democratic system of government - the general population cannot be trusted with 100% of the legislative process from cradle to grave.

Article IV, Section 4 of the Constitution guarantees us a republican form of government. IMHO initiatives at a state level violate the Constitution.

Tyranny of the majority.
 

gogodawgs

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Real loophole

The real loophole....

I lost my gun..... (no law says I have to report a lost/stolen firearm)

You lost $500..... (no law says you have to report a lost/stolen pile of cash)


:eek:
 

MattinWA

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Interesting, modern smokeless powder is not an explosive, it burns and the resulting expanding gasses propel the projectile.
Black powder is an explosive, but most modern day firearms do not use this as a propellant.

Just goes to show the people writing these laws/definitions have no clue what they are talking about
 
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rapgood

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I caution all y'all against conflating "may" with "can." While an object might be missing a barrel or trigger or hammer or whatever, and therefore can't be used to launch a projectile, the object still may be used to do so (by adding the missing part or parts). You may be dancing along a very slippery slope.
 
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