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Horizontal Shoulder Holsters

MatieA

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2009
Messages
400
Location
Egbert, Wyoming, USA
You know I have read a lot about people not wanting to be muzzled by someone in front of them, and then twice this last week it has happened to me and has got me to thinking. People who don't have an issue with someone carrying (wearing) a gun may suddenly act very anti when they discover themselves staring down the barrel of a holstered firearm. I myself own a shoulder holster, but it is the vertical type, and now I am glad that I bought that style. It is very disconcerting to be standing in line at Walmart and find yourself staring down the barrel of someones firearm, or even walking down an aisle at Hobby Lobby and finding the same. Also the one fellow I saw at Hobby Lobby did not even have his shoulder holster fastened at the belt, so the whole rig was kind of "flopping" around, and seems to me that if he had tripped and fallen that he could have very easily lost his shoulder rig.
I have forgotten where I was going with this so I will leave off here. :)
 

DamonK

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 23, 2012
Messages
585
Location
Ft. Lewis, WA
It is something to think about. There are 5hose on here that'll say "it's their right!" And they would be technically correct. I personally feel that how the public reacts to us as representatives of the firearms owners community is important.

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VW_Factor

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 1, 2010
Messages
1,092
Location
Leesburg, GA
A lot of guys tend to feel differently about this stuff. Unclear where to draw the line..

A firearm holstered properly and not being handled is not technically or actively being aimed.. IMO that should make "muzzling" a non-issue, just as with walking past a firearm just laying on a table or workbench.

Whether this is considered safe or not, will likely be debated for years to come and never end.
 

DamonK

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 23, 2012
Messages
585
Location
Ft. Lewis, WA
I think a fairly reasonable argument can be made that if a weapon is under someone's control (ie holstered) and the loaded weapon is pointed at you, that is muzzeling/flagging. Frankly, I've used firearms for a living and hobby for 20 years and I can tell you, I don't appericiate a loaded firearm being pointed at me. It's just a common sense safety issue. You say it isn't an issue because your mechanical safety almost never fails, I say why do you carry in the first place? Because there is a slight chance that something bad may happen. Why trade one risk for another? And don't forget operator error....

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VW_Factor

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 1, 2010
Messages
1,092
Location
Leesburg, GA
What I say may have slight opinion to it. However..

A holstered firearm with trigger guard is not relying on its mechanical safety mechanism to prevent instantaneous discharge. That would require user intervention or handling. (such as pulling a trigger)

I have the same feelings you do IMO. Merely pointing out where/how the argument happens. Just as a parked car doesn't wreck itself, a holstered firearm isn't going to do anything either.

However, holstered or not isn't part of the firearm safety mantra. Simply don't "point" it at things/people. Where-in the argument ensues.. What is "pointed?"

Edit : the car thing may not be a great example. I've known some brand new vehicles that go up in flames just because, however I'm sure its good enough for the point.
 
Last edited:

marinepilot81

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2008
Messages
108
Location
Florida Panhandle
My Take

It seems this is a "courtesy" issue. Honestly, it's not my job to attend to the emotional fragility of my fellow citizens. That's their problem.

VW: That's an excellent point. Guns don't just "go off."
 
Last edited:

MatieA

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2009
Messages
400
Location
Egbert, Wyoming, USA
I understand that guns don't just go off, and that everyone is (mostly) free to carry however they feel like, but am just stating that it was a bit disconcerting looking down a barrel. Also if your going to wear a holster, it really should be properly fastened down not just thrown on.....
 

DamonK

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 23, 2012
Messages
585
Location
Ft. Lewis, WA
I understand that guns don't just go off, and that everyone is (mostly) free to carry however they feel like, but am just stating that it was a bit disconcerting looking down a barrel. Also if your going to wear a holster, it really should be properly fastened down not just thrown on.....

Actually, guns have been known to just"go off" every once in a very rare while. Also as I said earlier, there is always human error. If the mechanism is worn, dirty, or faulty, it could fail. So now you have to ask yourself, is that worth the risk? Are we not carrying because there is a slight chance we may need to defend ourselves some day? Why add a risk when we are mitigating another?

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marinepilot81

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2008
Messages
108
Location
Florida Panhandle
Actually, guns have been known to just"go off" every once in a very rare while. Also as I said earlier, there is always human error. If the mechanism is worn, dirty, or faulty, it could fail. So now you have to ask yourself, is that worth the risk? Are we not carrying because there is a slight chance we may need to defend ourselves some day? Why add a risk when we are mitigating another?

Sir, this may be the case, but I have not EVER seen this happen. No open bolt machine gun, grenade launcher, M198 155mm howitzer, pistol, or ANYTHING else in my presence has ever "gone off" without the trigger being pulled or the bolt sent home.

By this logic none of us should carry. Ultimately, we're all carrying around weapons that are worn, dirty, or faulty to some degree, right? The shoulder rig is my preferred method for motorcycle carry because it doesn't dig into my hip. So, yes, there is a "time and place."

This argument is about what we "feel" and not about fact and reason...or for that matter, tolerance for others in a free society.
 

Boba Fett

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2012
Messages
206
Location
Fair Grove, Missouri
I've looked down the barrel of guns it H-rigs. It doesn't make me nervous. But in any case OC with a shoulder rig looks weird for me cause I'm so skinny, so I don't do it outside of a road trip.
 

marinepilot81

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2008
Messages
108
Location
Florida Panhandle
I've looked down the barrel of guns it H-rigs. It doesn't make me nervous. But in any case OC with a shoulder rig looks weird for me cause I'm so skinny, so I don't do it outside of a road trip.

So that's why you OC! You're compensating! There just isn't anything more free than riding a motorcycle, wearing no helmet, and holstering a 1911 on your shoulder rig. That's how a road trip should be done.
 

Aknazer

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2011
Messages
1,760
Location
California
Here is my take. I personally don't like having a shoulder holster pointing it's gun at me, but I don't mind a thigh rig when the person sits down, or a gun on someone's back pointing at me. I don't know what it is about the shoulder rig, but I'm just not a fan of having it point a gun at me.
 

GONZO!!!

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2012
Messages
36
Location
Delphi, Indiana
I have a horizontal shoulder holster and as I have stated in other threads, I think there is a repsonsibility to the general public in how we conduct ourselves with our firearms. Just like we ask them to respect our rights to own, and open carry our firearm, we must respect their rights to not have a loaded weapon pointed at them.

I have explained about "sweeping" the general public with a shoulder holster on this forum and was very surprised to find those who basically gave a "tough crap" style of answer. Or stated that they were never "sweeping" when carrying or even drawing their weapon. I am pro-gun...pro-carry...pro 2A....

So let me phrase a general question to every in this way...

Even as a 2A advocate and pro-gun owner and defender...how would you feel holding your newborn baby or grandbaby in your arms in line at Walmart and in front of you is an open carry shoulder holster and the muzzle is only 12" away pointing directly at your baby's face? As pro gun as I am, I would have a HUGE issue with this.

Now I know that there will be some who respond with, then i would move to another check out line, etc. Yes, thats your right. and while I am not attempting to infringe on the rights of the 2A shoulder holster person in front of me, I still believe that holding a high regard for personal and public responsibility AND discretion should be the 2A person's philosophy. What if the person standing in line behind the 2A shoulder holster person was a anti-gun...or just a anti-carry person? Perhaps this person has had a history of gun violence in their family and (although innocently enough) there is a person in front of them pointing a muzzle directly at them. Do we believe that we are going to be able to have a convincing conversation with this person and win them over to the 2A side? (notice I said 'conversation' and not 'argument').

Remember the big internet chaos about the blackhawk serpa holster and the video of the guy in texas shooting his own leg...people are still going crazy over this...the edited video which was first emaild around and posted on websites ony showed him shooting himself...only later did everyone see the entire video with the shooter actually confessing that this was NOT an issue of the holster nor of the gun...this was a training issue. Completely his fault. yet, we are STILL in chaos over this issue and people are over-reacting all over the country.

Now, what if that same guy was in front of you, your wife and children and he reaches for his weapon and does the same thing?!!! With the horizontal shoulder holster the person behind gets shot. yes, this could happen with or without the shoulder holster beign concealed. I am not trying to make this a traiing issue, AD issue or ND issue...The point I am trying to make is that people, regardless of their stance on gun rights, do not like to be looking down the barrel of a loaded weapon and even those mildly accepting of us having and carrying weapons are still fearful of a muzzle because of ADs and NDs.

I believe we have a legal,moral and ethical responsibility to claim our own rights AND protect those rights of others well. Responsibility and discretion go along way to winning our war with anti-gunners.

just my two cents....

GONZO!!!
 

DamonK

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 23, 2012
Messages
585
Location
Ft. Lewis, WA
I have a horizontal shoulder holster and as I have stated in other threads, I think there is a repsonsibility to the general public in how we conduct ourselves with our firearms. Just like we ask them to respect our rights to own, and open carry our firearm, we must respect their rights to not have a loaded weapon pointed at them.

I have explained about "sweeping" the general public with a shoulder holster on this forum and was very surprised to find those who basically gave a "tough crap" style of answer. Or stated that they were never "sweeping" when carrying or even drawing their weapon. I am pro-gun...pro-carry...pro 2A....

So let me phrase a general question to every in this way...

Even as a 2A advocate and pro-gun owner and defender...how would you feel holding your newborn baby or grandbaby in your arms in line at Walmart and in front of you is an open carry shoulder holster and the muzzle is only 12" away pointing directly at your baby's face? As pro gun as I am, I would have a HUGE issue with this.

Now I know that there will be some who respond with, then i would move to another check out line, etc. Yes, thats your right. and while I am not attempting to infringe on the rights of the 2A shoulder holster person in front of me, I still believe that holding a high regard for personal and public responsibility AND discretion should be the 2A person's philosophy. What if the person standing in line behind the 2A shoulder holster person was a anti-gun...or just a anti-carry person? Perhaps this person has had a history of gun violence in their family and (although innocently enough) there is a person in front of them pointing a muzzle directly at them. Do we believe that we are going to be able to have a convincing conversation with this person and win them over to the 2A side? (notice I said 'conversation' and not 'argument').

Remember the big internet chaos about the blackhawk serpa holster and the video of the guy in texas shooting his own leg...people are still going crazy over this...the edited video which was first emaild around and posted on websites ony showed him shooting himself...only later did everyone see the entire video with the shooter actually confessing that this was NOT an issue of the holster nor of the gun...this was a training issue. Completely his fault. yet, we are STILL in chaos over this issue and people are over-reacting all over the country.

Now, what if that same guy was in front of you, your wife and children and he reaches for his weapon and does the same thing?!!! With the horizontal shoulder holster the person behind gets shot. yes, this could happen with or without the shoulder holster beign concealed. I am not trying to make this a traiing issue, AD issue or ND issue...The point I am trying to make is that people, regardless of their stance on gun rights, do not like to be looking down the barrel of a loaded weapon and even those mildly accepting of us having and carrying weapons are still fearful of a muzzle because of ADs and NDs.

I believe we have a legal,moral and ethical responsibility to claim our own rights AND protect those rights of others well. Responsibility and discretion go along way to winning our war with anti-gunners.

just my two cents....

GONZO!!!

Perfect! Exactly what I have been trying to say.

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Leader

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 8, 2006
Messages
274
Location
Livingston Co., Michigan, , USA
I have a horizontal shoulder holster and as I have stated in other threads, I think there is a repsonsibility to the general public in how we conduct ourselves with our firearms. Just like we ask them to respect our rights to own, and open carry our firearm, we must respect their rights to not have a loaded weapon pointed at them.

I have explained about "sweeping" the general public with a shoulder holster on this forum and was very surprised to find those who basically gave a "tough crap" style of answer. Or stated that they were never "sweeping" when carrying or even drawing their weapon. I am pro-gun...pro-carry...pro 2A....

So let me phrase a general question to every in this way...

Even as a 2A advocate and pro-gun owner and defender...how would you feel holding your newborn baby or grandbaby in your arms in line at Walmart and in front of you is an open carry shoulder holster and the muzzle is only 12" away pointing directly at your baby's face? As pro gun as I am, I would have a HUGE issue with this.

Now I know that there will be some who respond with, then i would move to another check out line, etc. Yes, thats your right. and while I am not attempting to infringe on the rights of the 2A shoulder holster person in front of me, I still believe that holding a high regard for personal and public responsibility AND discretion should be the 2A person's philosophy. What if the person standing in line behind the 2A shoulder holster person was a anti-gun...or just a anti-carry person? Perhaps this person has had a history of gun violence in their family and (although innocently enough) there is a person in front of them pointing a muzzle directly at them. Do we believe that we are going to be able to have a convincing conversation with this person and win them over to the 2A side? (notice I said 'conversation' and not 'argument').

Remember the big internet chaos about the blackhawk serpa holster and the video of the guy in texas shooting his own leg...people are still going crazy over this...the edited video which was first emaild around and posted on websites ony showed him shooting himself...only later did everyone see the entire video with the shooter actually confessing that this was NOT an issue of the holster nor of the gun...this was a training issue. Completely his fault. yet, we are STILL in chaos over this issue and people are over-reacting all over the country.

Now, what if that same guy was in front of you, your wife and children and he reaches for his weapon and does the same thing?!!! With the horizontal shoulder holster the person behind gets shot. yes, this could happen with or without the shoulder holster beign concealed. I am not trying to make this a traiing issue, AD issue or ND issue...The point I am trying to make is that people, regardless of their stance on gun rights, do not like to be looking down the barrel of a loaded weapon and even those mildly accepting of us having and carrying weapons are still fearful of a muzzle because of ADs and NDs.

I believe we have a legal,moral and ethical responsibility to claim our own rights AND protect those rights of others well. Responsibility and discretion go along way to winning our war with anti-gunners.

just my two cents....

GONZO!!!


Take into consideration that there has never been a verified case of a gun in a shoulder holster going off without human intervention nor a case of what you fear happening.
Then consider how many babies die each year in vehicle accidents. yet you drove your baby to that store.
Now consider how many recorded cases there are of people being struck by lightning TWICE and living yet you take your baby outside.
Still think your fears are justified ?
 

DamonK

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 23, 2012
Messages
585
Location
Ft. Lewis, WA
Take into consideration that there has never been a verified case of a gun in a shoulder holster going off without human intervention nor a case of what you fear happening.
Then consider how many babies die each year in vehicle accidents. yet you drove your baby to that store.
Now consider how many recorded cases there are of people being struck by lightning TWICE and living yet you take your baby outside.
Still think your fears are justified ?

You're just being ignorant. There are plenty of examples of holstered firearms going off. And you can't take the human aspect out of it, the holster is on a human. If you're trying to inflame me by talking about my children, you are going to fail. I keep them as safe as I can and the rest is up to God. The fact remains that by carrying in a horizontal shoulder rig, you ARE flagging everyone behind you. It is rude and not nearly as cool as you think. Your argument smacks of a lack of real world experience, so I would suggest that you step out of your mother's basement and get some. Wearing a shoulder rig, or any kind of holster doesn't make you cool. Especially when the barrel of your piece is pointed directly at someone else. It makes you an *******.

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Mas49.56

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2010
Messages
308
Location
Florida, USA
Sir, this may be the case, but I have not EVER seen this happen. No open bolt machine gun, grenade launcher, M198 155mm howitzer, pistol, or ANYTHING else in my presence has ever "gone off" without the trigger being pulled or the bolt sent home.

By this logic none of us should carry. Ultimately, we're all carrying around weapons that are worn, dirty, or faulty to some degree, right? The shoulder rig is my preferred method for motorcycle carry because it doesn't dig into my hip. So, yes, there is a "time and place."

This argument is about what we "feel" and not about fact and reason...or for that matter, tolerance for others in a free society.

Some girl just got killed from a holstered gun going off from a backwards hug. Sad. I don't see how she was shot in the lung without it being a shoulder holster. Weird.
http://www.startribune.com/nation/161812115.html
 

kcgunfan

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 22, 2011
Messages
1,002
Location
KC
How is the fact that this young woman was supposedly killed from an AD from an IBW holster relevant to a discussion on shoulder holsters?

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GONZO!!!

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2012
Messages
36
Location
Delphi, Indiana
This is not a discussion about ADs or NDs...the point is openly carrying in a horizontal shoulder holster and the perception of innocents behind you as they stare down the muzzle of your gun...IF the argument that a weapon never went off by itself (and I will 99% agree with that - it is always operator error somewhere down the line) ...but IF a weapon never goes off by itself, then it would be perfectly acceptable to take my .45 and aim it directly at your family, correct? NO! NOT CORRECT! And I would never ever do that.

the issue in this thread is legal, ethical, and moral responsibility for OUR rights AND the rights of others. Once we accept this responsibiility, then the "gun-toting 2A Rambo mentality" is thrown out the window and we begin to, not debate, but inform , share and teach others on the responsibilities of great gun ownership.

even if my weapon was unloaded and empty of all ammunition, but I was openly carrying in a horizontal shoulder holster I would be conciously violating 3 of the Rules of Gun Safety...

RULE I: ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED

RULE II: NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY

RULE III: KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET

RULE IV: BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET


The horizontal shoulder holster is not the cause of bad press and anti-gun sentiment...neither is the weapon...
the cause for anti-gun AND anti-carry (CC or OC) sentiment is based on OUR responsibility to respect the rights and safety of others.
We ask, no I take that back...we tend to DEMAND that others respect our rights to legally own and legally carry a firearm yet we do little to instill confidence in the public because we do things like open carry a horizontal shoulder holster and have our muzzles pointing at innocent families.

It has been a long struggle to get the rights that we have and some of us seem to take them for granted. If one doesnt realize how precious that right is, ask your fellow gun owners in Illinois about their continuing struggle.

All I am asking is that we use some discretion and that we, going forward, take a higher personal responsibility in our gun ownership and our legal right to carry. Let's set a higher standard.

GONZO!!!
 
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